Jonah

That book does look really good, Michael Winn deeply praises it: "This book is fascinating, deep, essential reading for anyone interested in sex as the hidden force ruling bodily and spiritual health. Adepts of Daoist sexology, Oriental and Western doctors, sex therapists, psychologists, energy worker; scholars, archeologists, poets, and historians of Chinese culture or simply curious lay readers—all will feel they have been erotically and psycho‑sexually sated. Human culture here is a vast jigsaw puzzle, with sex as the key piece linking cosmology, empirical and magical medicine, the popular culture of love, its diseases and its euphoric desires, Confucian family dynamics, bi‑sexual emperors, eunuchs, longevity qigong, and Daoist philosophy. I have been reading works in this field for thirty years and was amazed at how much new Jessieca Leo had to teach me. Who would guess that Confucius was sired during an orgiastic Spring Fertility Rite? Her penetrating research deftly illuminates and vivifies the often inscrutable Yellow Emperor and Mawangdui manuscripts of 2200 years ago. This is a book you will literally take to bed. —Michael Winn, Healing Tao USA

Your partner should be an integral part of your sexual cultivation. If he/she is not on board or unaware of what you are doing, little advancement can occur. Dual cultivation is the highest form of the bedroom arts with both partners helping each other in their spiritual growth. One book that is highly recommended for use as a couple is Beyond Tantra: Healing Through Taoist Sex - http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Tantra-Healing-Through-Taoist/dp/1844090639

The fact that he is revisiting key practices of the Healing Tao says it all - there are some solid practices within the school that cannot be simply bundled together with the school's more problematic practices and then tossed aside. I have to say I get a kick out of people who angrily bash the school whenever they get a chance, as if it is an evil monolithic entity. It is not. The school is a diverse collection of practices, and a diverse collection of teachers. Different teachers emphasize what they have found to work for them, and each teacher imprints their own unique experience and expertise on to their teaching. I haven't been in touch with Sean for a while, but we both studied and taught Healing Tao practices at the same time back in 1999-2002. Like Sean I too moved on to additional teachers and practices as part of my search for the best and "most true" perfect practice (there isn't one), yet still held a place in my heart for some of the real treasures of the Healing Tao (under Michael Winn), namely the Inner Smile, Primordial Chi Kung, the Wudang MCO, and Kan & Li. When you are younger, in your twenties and early thirties, you are convinced there is a perfect practice or teacher out there but once you delve deeper into any practice or teacher after a few years you will always find flaws. Everyone has flaws, even the most accomplished practitioner you may be currently studying under. Overly idealizing a practice or teacher is simply setting you up for disappointment. Problems are simply part of living on earth, nothing is perfect, nothing is absolute. It's a tough realization, but if you can accept that the treasures you receive from your teachers also come with their fair share of non-treasure, the easier it is to absorb the teachings and be more in tune with the Tao - that which just is, both treasure and shit all rolled into one.

Just an FYI. Sean Denty has come full circle and is now connected again with the Healing Tao: Healing Tao USA General Forum

Eric, I would like to thank you for coming onto this site and providing us with your insights on Taoist practice. I feel your 100 Days book is one of the best chi kung titles out there and have regularly recommended it to friends and students. This forum wouldn't be possible without the internet, it's great to be able to share our thoughts and opinions from people all around the world with simply a computer and keyboard. But the same technology has its limits: namely, that because there is no face to face interaction, it is very easy to both misinterpret things as well as say things to each other that you would never say to them in person. There is an ever-present potential for postings to go way off topic very quickly simply because of a simple misunderstanding or difference in opinion. And they can go way off topic in a very ugly way. This will always be an issue, it's inherent in the system. Nonetheless, I do hope we as a forum can work together towards sticking to topic in this particular teaching thread, and treat this thread (and hopefully future ones) as an actual class. We are here to learn a particular topic. That is why we're here. In class it's perfectly normal to ask questions, even ones that can be challenging or pointed. But the point of the questions are generally to get clarification and understanding on the subject at hand. Imagine if you were back in school or college and during class every few minutes someone would yell at the teacher, "Who the hell do you think you are?!" or "You've got to be f**ing kidding me, that is not the way it is at all!" It would actually be funny the first couple of times, but in reality let's not kid ourselves, for everyone who wanted to learn something it would be a disaster, no one would benefit from such a situation. I'm certainly not a moderator here, and I post things once in a blue moon, but I extremely confident that I am not the only one who sees Eric here as an amazing opportunity to learn some very cool things. I would hate to see a handful of people ruin an opportunity for the rest of us to download some very cool techniques. "Like this cup," said the Zen Master, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup" That's the diplomatic side of me. Undiplomatically I would like to say loudly to some members of the group - SHUT THE HELL UP WHEN THE TEACHER IS SPEAKING, YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING. I'll leave it at that.

Master Zhu recommended that for optimum results the form should be practiced at least four times a day, with each set taking between eight to twelve minutes to perform. I can honestly say that I don't often get to four, most often it's just two or three sets. Speed wise it really depends on my mood. If I'm really focusing on the internal energies - feeling the colors and emotions of the directions, bringing in complimentary energies from male/female, sun/moon, and the stars - then I tend to slow down the form. If I'm looking for a more simple energy boost then I just let it flow without much thinking, and that speeds it up. Ultimately there's really no one right speed to do, the form is for you, not the other way around. If you are bored and need energy, speed it up. If you want to get more into the feeling and alchemical side, slow it down. Mix it up, do the speed that you feel fits best for you in that moment, and you'll be getting exactly what you need from the form.

I've been practicing the form for over 12 years now after learning the form directly from Michael Winn in the late 90s. He learned it directly from Master Zhu Hui as did Donald Rubbo and Cheng Bingsong whose materials I also own and study. Out of the three I would say Cheng Bingsong's structural elements are the best. He moves with a grace that neither of them can compare with. Bingsong's pace is also dramatically quicker than Winn's and Rubbo's and I would encourage practitioners to vary their speed according to taste and mood. Solala Towler of The Empty Vessel told me that Bingsong practices the form the way it's done in China, much faster than the near slow-motion pace we are taught in the States. Unfortunately Bingsong offers his viewers nearly zip on anything internally. Yeah, there's the standard focus on your dan tien that you find everywhere, but the internal alchemy of the form that is accessed by intention simply isn't provided. So you need to look at Rubbo's and Winn's forms for the internals. I believe you can find interesting and powerful internals for the form from both Rubbo and Winn. Winn's form feels much more accessible to beginners than Rubbo's and after reading Rubbo's book several times I have to say that it would be quite difficult for anyone to learn it from a book. He has some videos up on youtube but they are only snippets of the form. Winn's video materials can be barebones production-wise but generally you can learn from them. Rubbo is working on a video as we speak and I believe that will make it much easier to learn his form. Likewise Winn is working on a book now so we can hear from him more on his internal practice in the form. Bottom line, you are always better off learning directly in a class setting rather than books and videos, but I understand that this not always possible. I currently practice the form using Bingsong's externals (Rubbo's form has added foot movements that I believe detract from the flow) and a combination of Rubbo's and Winn's internals. Each teacher, no matter what the subject, makes subtle variations on their subject matter. When it comes to Primordial Qigong you can learn valuable insights from all three teachers.

Wow. After reading these posts I never realized that Lao Tzu and Bodhidharma were such low-level practitioners.

Klaus Wiese. Will put you into a deeply meditative, expansive yet grounding state. Anouar Brahem. Beautiful and elegant. Stephen Katz. Going where no cello has gone before.

It's funny how these things work. I can go for months without looking at Tao Bums and when I jump back in to see what people are doing, it is generally exactly something that I have been recently exploring on my own. It's like the teaching is out there in the collective consciousness and everyone is picking it up in their own way. Trunk, in the same vein as Mark Griffin, Michael Winn has a whole series of his lectures, Chi Kung Fundamentals 3 devoted entirely to this type of breath. He calls it internal chi breathing, counterforce breathing, and "neutral breath." I practiced it for about 16 hours last weekend in the woods while hunting and it created an amazing sense of internal space. Felt like there was a massive amount of empty space inside that expanded outwards when exhaling. Very grounding, very satisfying. It's funny how the fundamentals that we all are exposed to long ago keep on coming back after our monkey mind's searches for various other practices that look new and better are tamed. The simple basics always feed the many tributaries we explore.

Hello All, As with many on this forum I have been enjoying the Kunlun Bliss practice for the past few months. It's a very cool practice. I haven't been to any of Max's seminars but am learning from the book. The main question I had was: does anyone know what lineage this Kunlun practice is from? On the board Chris mentioned that Max learned this practice from Jenny Lamb. She looks to be an impressive teacher. Does anyone know who she learned it from and what were their traditions or background? Is there a specific school in China/Tibet that this form is from? Any input on this form's origins would be most appreciated. Thanks, Jonah

Satyalok and Xienhula1, you guys are saints!!! Thank you so much, this is EXACTLY what I was looking for. This is definitely something that I would like to look into further. Thanks again for letting us know! Best, Jonah

Chris, Good to hear from you. I'm still a bit confused, it would be extremely helpful if you could shed some more light on the issue. I'm glad to hear that Kunlun is indeed a lineage practice. With a lineage, there is the ability to create a family tree of teacher's names going back to the source. In all of my practices I know who taught my teacher, and who taught that teacher and so on. In regards to the 7402 masters who came before us, what master in this lifetime was the individual who taught Max this practice? In an earlier post you mentioned it was Jenny Lamb. Is this correct? If it was Jenny Lamb who taught Max this practice, what is her background, and who was her teacher? Andrew Lum sounds like a very impressive teacher in his own right, but was he in any way involved in teaching Max Kunlun? If he is, please let us know, that would be interesting. But if not, it would be best to keep him out of the equation for now, we are looking to focus specifically on the lineage holders of the Kunlun practice. If you could answer these questions I would really appreciate it, and it would help me feel more connected to the practice. Thanks Chris! Jonah

Hello again Santiago, The current discussion on children is important and obviously should be continued, but I'm still curious about the above issue. I'm a very open-minded individual, but to just nonchalantly say that one can make one's head disappear as if one was simply washing the dishes or taking out the trash is something that has to be called out on. I totally appreciate your input and information on this board, but to not bat an eye over such a claim is a bit too much to take. Again, no disrespect to your practices or teachers is intended whatsoever. I'm just calling it as I see it. Until I witnessed this first hand or shown some video or photo evidence of this, I find such discussion to be suspect at the very least. Best, Jonah

Santiago, Making your head disappear sounds like an extraordinary feat beyond the realms of physics. If you can do this you would make headlines around the world instantly. Are you actually saying that to the naked eye your head simply becomes invisible? Don't get me wrong, I've felt my body disappear and dissolve in Kan and Li and other meditations, but for it to physically just disappear and becomes invisible is outside the realm of possibility. Do you actually mean this or are you talking in metaphors? If you actually mean your head disappears please make a short video with a digital camera of you doing it in front of a mirror and then post it to this site. Would love to see it. Thanks, JH

Yes. They both learned the exact same form from Master Zhu Hui. Michael made a minor change to the closing movement, focusing on the central channel, but other than that they are identical forms. "Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." Enlightenment is not a one-size-fits-all commodity. There are gradations of enlightenment with different nuances, strengths, and flavors. It is not a final destination that you reach, where everything is easy, effortless, and blissful 100% of the time. It is a journey. Just as the sun rises and falls, so does its light brighten and then fade away into darkness. Enlightenment is the same. You will have periods of clarity, and other periods where you nod off and go back to sleep. Awakening for longer and longer periods of time does gradually occur, and different methods can help you get there. Primordial Chi Kung can get you there. So can Winn's alchemy formulas. Different routes, different experiences, different types of enlightenment. Within the formulas there are gradations of enlightenment. There is the Lesser Enlightenment of Kan & Li, Greater Enlightenment of Kan & Li, Greatest Enlightenment of Kan & Li, etc. It depends on the person and what area of their life/psyche needs to be enlightened, made fully aware and awakened. I can't speak of the 72 levels of Mo Pai, I haven't experienced them. I'm confident they are a completely valid path. Personally, I'm of the philosophy of "doing one thing well, rather than doing many things not so well." Again, this is simply a personal preference. Others prefer and thrive in complexity. You choose what suits you best. As far as achieving "full enlightenment," or becoming "fully awakened," that is a long-term goal for many. If that is your goal realize there are many paths one can take, and the path that works great for you may be completely inappropriate and won't work for another. There is no one standard path for everyone.

WYG, That sounds like a very cool form you are studying. There are indeed many forms called Primordial Chi Kung. The one Michael Winn teaches is from Master Zhu Hui, who also taught it to Sifu Rubbo. Roger Jahnke learned it from Winn, Rubbo, and Dr. Chen. Solala Towler learned it from one of Zhu Hui's senior students Cheng Bingsong, who has his own DVD: http://wujigong.com/ There is no doubt it is a simple practice, and is not very complicated. The simplicity is perfect for me, as I find it to be an efficient and effective foundation practice that really complements the basics - standing post practices and stillness meditation. Best, Jonah

If the form doesn't appeal to you, no worries, everyone has different tastes in forms and exercises. However, to those who have delved deeply into this form, it truly is a remarkable treasure. It is not one to be simply tossed aside. Primordial Qigong is the favorite of not only Michael Winn, but of Qigong instructor Donald Rubbo, "Sifu Rubbo had the rare honor to meet and study with Master Zhu Hui, and developed a deep connection to and respect for this profound system, whose depths he feels are unlimited. Sifu Rubbo asked Master Zhu Hui, "What benefits can one derive from practicing Primordial Chi Gung?" Master Zhu Hui replied, "In my personal experience, I have developed the capability to see what ails you. But not only that, I have cultivated the wisdom and ability to heal you." This statement had a profound influence on Sifu Rubbo, and he was so inspired by Master Zhu he began teaching the "Wu Ji" system to his students. Master Zhu Hui recommended to Sifu Rubbo to practice a minimum of four sets per day, with each set taking between eight and twelve minutes to perform." Empty Vessel editor Solala Towler, and bestselling qigong author Roger Jahnke who, in his book, The Healing Power of Qi, described a conversation he had with a retired doctor now living as a monk in the mountains of China, Dr. Chen, who had used the form to cure himself of liver cancer. "I made the acquaintance of an elder monk who was involved in the lineage of a secret Tai Chi I had learned many years earlier. He taught me a Qigong form that is based on reversing time that comes directly from the master who created the original Tai Chi, Zhang San Feng. Master Zhang had a background in the tradition of Inner Alchemy, and a strong feeling for the value of moving meditation. The form, called Primordial Qigong, reverses time to reconnect the practitioner with the past and with their prebirth state to alter the course of the future. I practiced this Qigong faithfully and took some herbal formulas, and over some time, recovered from the cancer. "

Another excerpt from David Palmer's "Qigong Fever." In this one, Palmer explains the marketing strategies that modern-day entrepreneurial qigong masters in China have been using since the 1980s (and much longer than that as you will see). The key is an easy to read, entertaining and action-packed biography complete with mystical teachers, mountain hermitages, and superhuman powers. THE LEGEND OF THE GRANDMASTER After the Cultural Revolution, as qigong once again became politically and culturally legitimate, the Chinese government encouraged formally sanctioned teaching of qigong to the masses. High-level teachers were federated into state-sponsored associations affiliated to state medical, scientific and sports authorities. Traditional teachers could now practice their healing arts and create charismatic networks under the guise of qigong. Unprecedented in China's history, this mass phenomenon of masters who 'came out of the mountains' (chusan) to publicly teach techniques derived from folk, Taoist, Buddhist, martial and medical traditions. In terms of numbers, traditions which had previously been limited by primitive forms of communication to small networks of disciples were spread to millions of practitioners in the space of a few years. This spread of qigong occurred in the context of Deng Xiaoping's policy reforms which opened up the conditions for a religious revival in the 1980s. In the countryside this revival manifested itself through the rebuilding of temples destroyed during the Cultural Revolution and through the reconstitution of ritual networks. In the cities, however, the renewed interest in religion was more diffuse: books on religious subjects found a large readership and religious themes such as the 'Journey to the West' were smash hits. 'Martial arts fever' added to the spiritual ferment. Kung fu novels and films from Hong Kong and Taiwan flooded mainland theaters and bookstalls, fueling the growth of a burgeoning martial arts subculture. Itinerant martial arts troupes resurfaced and entertained crowds with their exploits. Blockbuster movies such as 'Shaolin Temple' triggered a cult following among youth, who flocked to the temples of Shaolin, Wudang and Emei in search of the secret teachings of a master. These films and novels depict Buddhist monks and Taoist masters who can fly, disappear and reappear, and read people's minds -- abilities they are said to have acquired through the mastery of 'inner cultivation' (niegong), which involves the body, breath and mind control exercises associated with qigong. For thousands of kung fu fans, it thus became apparent that the magical feats fo the past and the stunts of pulp films were not fiction: they could be mastered through initiation to a qigong master. Qigong masters, with their miraculous healing abilities and Extraordinary Powers, soon came to be seen as living incarnations of the wizards of kung fu culture. Increasingly qigong masters were becoming charismatic figures who stole the limelight from the body techniques, which one did not even need to practice: one could be cured directly by the master. The qigong master combined in his own body the powers of the magicians of ancient times and the knowledge of a great scientist. Legends grew around the most famous masters, many of whom were said to have demonstrated miraculous powers from their early childhood in a poor countryside surrounded by mountains, grottoes and temples. Qigong literature and the publications of the different denominations are full of biographies which share a mythical structure often containing common themes, and reminiscent of a Chinese tradition of hagiographic* literature going back at least as far as the "The Biographies of the Immortals" of the first century B.C. (*hagiographic - Hadn't heard of this word before. It's from the root word hagiography. From wikipedia: Hagiography is the study of saints. A hagiography refers literally to writings on the subject of such holy people, and specifically the biographies of ecclesiastical and secular leaders. The term "hagiography" has also come to be used as a pejorative reference to the works of contemporary biographers and historians whom critics perceive to be uncritical and even "reverential" in their writing.) Typically the future qigong master is presented as a country boy or girl who grows up under the harsh peasant living conditions of his or her family, and stands out for his or her unique qualities: intelligence, cunning, filial piety and precocious manifestation of a miraculous power. Typically the masters were said to have received initiation from as early as the age of four from a succession of mysterious sages, monks and masters representing all the esoteric traditions of Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Chinese medicine and martial arts. The turning point in the child's life is an encounter with an unknown sage. A mysterious personage whose identity is unknown, lacking a fixed abode and wandering from place to place, sometimes a Buddhist monk or a Taoist hermit, a 'superman' capable of working miracles, an old man seeking a disciple to pass on an ancient secret teaching, the sage identifies the future disciple who is still in his or her tender childhood years. The sage appears in the child's dreams, watches during his or her games, magically corrects behavior, initiates him or her into moral and esoteric secrets, and gives a strict training regimen including martial arts, meditation, healing techniques and the study of scriptures. After a period of incubation, during which the young master conceals his or her abilities, the initiator gives the command to 'go out of the mountains' (chushan) -- to manifest his or her powers and knowledge to the public, in order to deliver the world from its agony. Thus the qigong master doesn't choose to become a master: he or she is chosen by the sages who transmit the secret teaching. The meeting between the sage and the disciple is often considered to be predestined -- the yuanfen or fruit of karma. Invested with a mission, the master belongs to a different category from common people. His or her exceptional nature expresses itself through the ability to transcend physical laws, giving the capacity to heal incurable diseases, and in some cases to even control the powers of the universe.

Hello all, I've read from time to time on this forum about jing stagnation in regards to taoist sexual practices and was hoping I could get some basic information on the following questions: 1) What exactly are the symptoms of jing stagnation? 2) What methods have any of you found to help reduce it? The reason I ask is that over the many years trying different sexual practices (Chia, Winn, Lin, MMO) I have found over the past 2-3 years that more often than not my prostate/perineum/anus is constantly tingling as if there is trapped energy there. Although it is not painful in any way, the tingling is like a scratch that can't be itched. It is annoying. Ejaculation sometimes helps, sometimes not. I've tried using the aneros and the crystal wand with some success, but have not consistently used them, concerned that they may in fact be making the problem worse, or that I would have to rely on such physical interventions indefinitely. Any thoughts on this issue? I would really appreciate any input or experience folks may have had with this. Thanks! Jonah

Just heard back from Joeblast. He just bought one for $295. I'll definitely give them a call and see what the deal is.

Trunk, where do you see their introductory $295 price again? Would love to get it at that price. At the soloflex site they still are promoting it for $395. http://www.soloflex.com/products/wbv-platform.htm Thanks, Jonah

Thanks Trunk and tumoessence. Great advice. What I now plan on doing is getting that Soloflex vibration platform AND the doing the siddhasana and spinal breathing from Yogani on it! That should do the trick. Appreciate the excellent feedback. Jonah