Ya Mu

Good points. "all sorts of internal cultivation practices and the skills they develop". Yeah, this should cover it. A bit though, about confusion of the term "high level". I have spoken here extensively about how I use the term, and while I will grant that you are absolutely correct in that many use the term in marketing and have no understanding, some few have learned the term due to it was taught that way in China where they studied and it has nothing whatsoever to do with marketing and everything to do with vibratory state. It can mean more than one thing as in "high level skill" probably being a western majority interpretation but this is far from the actual meaning in other uses. In this thread posts #29 and #38 I explain how the term is utilized in Classical Chinese Medicine. In terms of neigong, the same definitions apply in that a person cannot strive for the type of healing described without understanding properties of vibration. So "high level" would mean ability to tune into and manipulate particular vibratory states. One thing is for sure, "high level" is not something that can be faked as it is not dependent on what the teacher says but on what the student accomplishes with their energy body for themselves to know and understand. In other words, if a person has never felt "high level" energetics it would be impossible for them to have any real concept of what it is; it is only through that personal experiencing that the meaning becomes clear. And whether the term be qigong or neigong they both absolutely have gong(fu) - time&effort - involved. So practice is required. Depending on the reading of a book without the practice gets one nowhere besides to confusion land.

Gan Mao Ling is amazing and is on my family's medicine shelf. It does, however, work best at the first sign of cold or flu. I know more than one MD convert that reaches for Gan Mao Ling. Also, qigong/neigong practitioners tend to get sick less as well as recover far faster; as an example the majority of Stillness-Movement practitioners who have been practicing for over 3 years usually don't come down with these virus. But of course anyone can get sick and different stress factors can come into play. Several good suggestions here. But be aware these is a huge difference in quality of herbal preparations. One brand of echinacea I think is wonderful is Gaia herbs echinacea supreme x-tra strength liguid. It is interesting to see sick qi and see these virus jump from one person to another.

What I have found is that everyone has their own ability to do this that varies from zero to a hundred. In other words, some almost instantly can do this stopping of the world - amazes me as it took me a LONG time - and others it takes much longer. Shifting is a technique that can help as it puts the time/now/yesterday/tomorrow into perspective and leads one out of mental chatter.

"My personal experience and growth during a particular sitting session during this workshop was both mind-blowing & eye-opening." Funny I should read this immediately after receiving an email from a student who attended that said, "...i didn't really know that this could get any cooler or more awesome. i was pretty blown out of the water by all of this stuff before but now i'm just floored." An interesting fact about the Stillness-Movement practice is that instead of it being a static "practice", it is dynamic and changes as the student progresses. As a person raises the energy body vibration the practice itself adjusts so as to allow more progression and information. And you will also notice that the same thing has happened with all the Gift of the Tao movements. You will always be welcome to attend. We have several German students with one in my Clinical Qigong Certification program.

Ah yes, Remember me saying in class that through raising one's energy body vibration through the shifting process becomes a concurrent development along with intent; they are interdependent. Intent & energy develop together. What you will also find is that your awareness of the energetics of the movements increases the more you apply intent in the healing process utilizing wai qi liao fa. I encourage you to increase your energy projection in helping others.

If the MDs are certified in medical acupuncture they most probably have been through the UCLA program which is actually quite good. IMO an order of magnitude more comprehensive than the chiropractor program. Plus, the advantage of comprehensive anatomy training. If the MD meets the training required by AAMA they should be qualified. http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/ I have had acupuncture by AAMA certified physicians that was as good as any I had in China.

It is good that your school has implemented qigong & medical qigong. I think in the coming years the schools which don't will begin getting less students and the patients/clients will demand better results than those school's graduates can give. I won't mention the school name, but their training program clinic had a very difficult patient and they had tried for weeks to get results with this patient. Finally one student trained in medical qigong (from my school) did a 5 minute medical qigong session on him which totally solved the problem. And from the head physician at Guan An Men hospital in China, "Our acupuncture doctors who practice qigong get far better results than our acupuncturists who don't." As far as the chiropractor acupuncture issue goes, they have an extremely powerful lobby and it is unlikely things will change. Unfortunately (IMO), as far as them doing acupuncture it is here to stay. Better patient education over time will be the only thing that can be done by what I consider legitimate acupuncturists. And I am speaking as someone who had far more than their 100 hrs training in TCM & acupuncture and who did have the pleasure of personally studying acupuncture/TCM in China with a famous Chinese TCM doctor. For the record I don't do clinical needling and am not licensed to do clinical needling.

It is good that there are stringent requirements IMO. However, as I mention above, chiropractors can turn around 4 weekends training into a license to perform acupuncture which is in no way enough training. IMO it is a good thing that there are MDs who studied in China in your schools staff. Joseph Helms, MD has done IMO a good job in introducing acupuncture to western MDs I have had acupuncture performed by graduates of many USA schools, teachers of several USA schools, several of the authors of the acupuncture books, MD China trained, and famous Chinese acupuncturists & teachers. I kept trying but it just never did anything for me and I still will hit (reflex) anyone trying to stick the SI points on my hand. My main beef with the schools is that here they are talking about manipulating the Qi but won't be progressive in introducing advanced qigong or medical qigong in the schools. It just doesn't make sense to me. I do realize some of the schools are offering basic qigong courses now.

From this: To This:

Some people are more sensitive to the needles than others. Personally, I don't like them and have had only a very few sessions out of quite a lot (I kept trying) that I felt did any good. Other people appear to respond better than I do. We do "needle-less acupuncture" in our clinical qigong. Perhaps you would be more happy with a clinical qigong practitioner than with the needle style. I personally respond 100s of times greater with clinical qigong than with needle acupuncture. I think a Tui Na and/or clinical qigong practitioner may be more to your liking.

I don't think wanting a diploma in itself is a bad thing. But it certainly depends on what one is looking for. For general spirituality I would say no such thing exists - and how would one test for it? Regurgitate memorized material? This is, IMO, the worst thing about academic education as it doesn't reflect what a person actually learned but just how well a person is able to memorize, with much of the memorized material useless in a practical application. On the other hand, I can give an example of which a diploma can be a good thing. In my medical qigong certification program a person has to spend 500 hrs in direct training. But does that in itself give them the diploma? NO! Anyone receiving the diploma must be able to demonstrate wai qi liao fa in a direct and effective manner. For instance, this past weekend a person graduated. His test was to work on a client with a fairly intense headache. And was 75% pain elimination good enough? NO! I required 100% - and he passed. Each person passing must walk the walk and not just talk the talk. In this case the diploma will give everyone walking into his clinic information that shows this person actually did study this material. It gives confidence in the therapist to the client. Much better than joe blow saying, yeah I read a book on clinical qigong and I am going to do that for you now. Clients do want to make sure a person is certified in what they are doing when they go to them for therapy. Certificate (from reliable institution recognized by other organizations) = good.

And chiropractors can legally needle people with only 100 hrs training...its a weird world, eh?.

I think you will find that simply looking at the terms qigong and neigong, due to their immense variety of use, will give no clue as to whether a system includes Heaven & Earth specific approaches.

"It's like this: If you learn all the skills needed to be a neurosurgeon, you can go around telling people that you're a neurosurgeon all you want, but nobody will hire you until you get credentials. If you tell people that you're a neurosurgeon without credentials, people will simply think you're a loon. ...and maybe you are a loon too, but you would have no way of telling without credentials proving it to yourself too." And of course, if one learned all the skills to become a neurosurgeon then they would have gone to medical school, received a diploma, then spent several years in residency required to achieve those skills and would have the diploma. If they had of only learned a small part of it, then gone out to call themselves an accomplished practitioner, look at how much harm they could do. They would probably turn out to be idiots with an intense hatred of real neurosurgery due to their own failure to learn it, and have neurosurgeon idiot students, and they would probably post anonymously on a forum as someone else and insult all other real neurosurgeons. Personally I am glad that neurosurgeons need diplomas to practice and that actual study of real neurosurgery is required to receive the diploma.

We have found that one hour is OK for those who do not project, but many practice more than that and some less. Our system has a good balance of sitting, standing, & movement. Our goal is to have an actual 24/7 practice and we don't have the overload you mention when practicing more; just a higher awareness enhancement.

It is mind-boggling that we have practitioners and schools whose basis for their practice is the manipulation of qi yet only a small percentage of those have ever practiced qigong. It is all conceptual to them instead of personal knowledge of.

Z00se, The example I gave above is just one of thousands. I assure you there is a huge difference in high-level versus low level approach, but I don't think I will be able to get this across to you. We have entirely different experiences and opinions about what "high Level" and Light consists of. You think it "I found this high frequency light to have very little or no pushing power" whereas I know that is not true, so in actuality we are referring to 2 totally different things. Also everything else you describe does not even come close to what I know as Light. There is no I and we as you put it but just one. Destiny feels great as one dances in the wu wei, it does not feel like a conflict, one simply IS or we simply BE. So in actuality we still are referring to totally different things. And yes, in the example I gave above the young man has gone these 20 something years with no migraine. Is this your "forever"? I have no idea. But I assure you he will tell you himself that walking in harmony with Light is no such thing as you describe as it is beautiful without the conflict you describe. We will have to just disagree on this.

When I speak of "High Level" concerning this topic of Chinese Medicine it means just exactly what the definition I gave earlier. If the practitioner has not been trained in this he/she is doing low-mid level depending on the training. It is a specific thing that would be impossible to do if a person has not studied it. I think some of you guys object to my use of the term because you don't like the comparisons. That's OK, but still, if a person hasn't learned this they simply have no basis for for understanding. It can include techniques from anywhere, so it is not just the technique I am referring to. When I speak of "high Level" neigong I am using the term in the same manner but also a bit differently. I think I have already explained, but High Level Qigong is the level of Light. As In QI Jing Shen Light or Jing Qi Shen Light whichever way one prefers to look at it. Whereas high level taught in CCM is speaking of exactly my earlier definition. It just happen that the two correlate as "Helping a person achieve their Destiny" is the epitome of medicine - nothing can be done that helps a person more. Simply working on the body, no matter how much appreciated that may be, doesn't help this. I now ask a question. What if a low level practitioner worked on someone who had a specific pain that they themselves, on a spiritual level, developed in order to learn a specific thing. Now, what if a higher level practitioner worked on the same person. What could happen is that the low level practitioner helps the person with the pain but does nothing whatsoever towards helping that person achieve their destiny and instead actually interferes with that persons destiny. And remember here, Destiny being defined as what that person decided, on a spiritual level, to accomplish here on Earth. I guess it boils down to, does any particular person believe that they may set themselves up in a particular manner, my above example being pain, for the purpose of a lesson needed to be learned. I have seen this to be true both personally and over and over again in clinic. It is totally amazing, yes, but it most definitely happens. I totally absolutely disagree that a low level practitioner can and will help such a person except through hit or miss whereas the high level practitioner has been trained to go much further than simple pain level. But through the nature of this training pain is eliminated as a side effect because once the thing that the person really needed is taken care of there is no longer a need for the pain. We are speaking of layers and layers. Go to a low level practitioner and they find a cause. A mid level practitioner will find the cause behind the cause. The high level practitioner will find the original cause. I will give a clinical example of what I am referring to. Nearly 20 years ago a young man of 15 was brought to my clinic. He had been through several different chiropractors, multiple acupuncturists, Chinese herbal medicine, western medicine of many different flavors included several neurologists, 2-week hospital stay and testing, psychology, and psychiatry. His problem was debilitating migraines so severe that he had to drop out of school and stay home. I worked on this young man one time and never heard from him again. 17 years later he calls me up and wishes to join my medical qigong certification program. He says the reason he wishes to do this is that the one session I gave him changed his life and he has since then been on a totally different path. He said the migraines ceased the day after the session and he dreamed that night of what he was to be and how he was to go about it. This young man is graduating form my certification program this next weekend. And a point - yes, I am a very good practitioner - but it is the SYSTEM of high level healing that is responsible - not me. This man has a clinic and has the same incredibly high level of efficacy as I did. He found and fulfilled his destiny. edit: typos fixed

Thanks for your views. "I think it doesn't rely on the 'higher' level at all. The highest level is present in the deepest of the lowest level, as can be seen by the white dot in the black of the yin yang. The highest level relies on the lowest level, and vise vesa. You don't need to foresee the greatest picture because taking such a high level approach may be so long sighted that person looking for results don't persist long enough to start getting the benefits of healing on a physical level." There are several problems with this statement. The "highest level" cannot be in the "lowest level" if the practitioner is ignorant that it even exists. Which the majority are. The results of the higher level approach are higher efficacy than a lower level approach as each level includes the previous level. As in mid-level includes body AND mind. So you are say that a practitioner concerned with and working only with the body will get as good, and you imply better, results than one working with the body & mind both. I highly disagree. And of course you are saying that one who has the knowledge and ability to work at the high-level will get worse results than one who works on the lower level. Not true, as including body, mind & Spirit is so much more powerful than working only on the body. We are WHOLE people including body, mind, & Spirit, not just bodies. Your next paragraph has some good thoughts that I personally agree with, however this statement has problems: "It's when you get to the nitty gritty details, without understanding how you came to those nitty gritty details, as would be read in a book without your own personal experience, as is cultivated through qigong and meditation, that it can all fall apart." It is not that I disagree totally with the statement, it is that the "cultivated through qigong and meditation" part does not apply to TCM as in general qigong simply is not taught in the TCM schools. In the USA very few have added qigong to their program and medical qigong is almost unheard of. In China they have pretty much chunked all the medical qigong and any form that has to do with anything other than "scientific method of physical exercise" which of course means that the more powerful forms are not taught in the TCM hospitals/schools. The majority of TCM practitioners that come to my classes have no basic knowledge of qi on a personal level as it is all conceptual. "To be honest i think most people want their physical problems fixed and are less interested in whether they fulfill their destiny or not" Agreed. Their lower level physical aspect usually drives the desire to go "get worked on". No practitioner who does not have a high degree of efficacy lasts in the business. The higher level practitioner usually has an order of magnitude greater efficacy as no stone is left unturned versus turning over only a couple of stones in the garden. If the low-level practitioner doesn't even know the other stones exist how could they possibly work on the whole? They can't.

No. We are speaking of something beyond your understanding; that is unless you have been secretly practicing this system.

Absolutely. It does not prevent you helping a person. Energetics can go out as needed. Cloaking gives one many advantages. Others, many of whom have ill-wishes toward a person, cannot "read" the energetics of the person. As in no one will be coming up to you in the grocery store, due to intense glow, wheras they would be if one didn't cloak. One can walk around normally without interference. We choose our places to heal, which happens mostly in our treatment room but can be anywhere.

First off, we do not visualize in our system. I have posted quite a bit about this. I have seen many many practitioners who "thought' they didn't need to shield against negative energetics. I have also seen many die young or just get sick, many with the type illness that are unable to diagnose or some generic diagnosis like fibromyalgia. If the practitioner is young and healthy it sometimes takes many years before the sick qi kickback takes its toll. We also shield for another reason. And that is "cloaking". I talk about all this in the book. At least I think I did. You should know that advanced neigong practices have shamanic roots.

Full moon is very powerful. On the contrary side, people with pain syndromes tend to hurt a lot worse. ------------------------------------------------------ Notvoid said, " In my view, all talk of higher and lower level and most authentic and best method and all that is really of no concern at all when you go to a healer." I said, "..misunderstanding about how I utilize the terms "higher level" and "lower level"" The manner in which I was taught Chinese medicine included the following information about the levels: Low Level - Concerned with the body. Mid-Level - Concerned with the mind. High-Level - The one and only goal of the practitioner is to help the person achieve their destiny. Destiny here refers to that which the person themselves has chosen to accomplish here on Earth. I am not the only teacher in the USA who has said this but I admit it is not the most prevalent concept taught in schools here nor in TCM. In a workshop many years ago with Efrem Korngold, he said the same thing as I do. I was very surprised and of course delighted to hear him say this as many appear to not have learned this concept. -------------------------------------------- Aksijaha said ,"When you (specifically) start mixing up Native American methods with your Qi gong.. it's kinda a bummer and sends some people running and screaming the other direction." Ken Cohen, who is an acquaintance and who I believe to be a good teacher, also "mixes" Native American methods with Qigong. And I believe there are several other teachers who do so. Actually, there is a misconception here. In my certification program and in my regular workshops I do not teach ANY Native American healing; only neigong & medical qigong. I do so only to some particular advanced practitioners AFTER they have completed the 500 hours of training. That is not to say that I think there would be anything wrong with it. Now, do I use Native American concepts that are synonymous with higher level neigong concepts when I do the awakening "Lighting the Fire" energy projection in my workshops? Yes. And it works very well. I have told this story before but it certainly applies here: I had just spent several days on top of a mountain with a medicine man and shortly after this I flew to China to visit Master Wang. I had purchased him a medicine drum with nice paintings and I was going to surprise him with my ability to project qi down the sound waves of the drum. HA! After I demonstrated, he said, "Very good!" "Now let me show you how WE do it." The moral of this story is that advanced neigong healing practices descend from shamanic roots and that higher level practices are really the same. So if anyone wishes to "run away" they really should do just that as these type practices are not meant for them. It is much easier for a person to do just about anything else with their life.

Hi Grady, And thank you for posting your views. I am attempting to keep my personal bias against TCM out of the equation with my responses as I do realize TCM, even though I personally am no fan, has helped many people, and that is what it is all about. Oh, I could go on a perfectly personal justified righteous indignation rant against it but I will try not to except to say that some of the TCM schools are churning out students who go out there and are causing more chaos than doing good. I would balance this by saying I have seen other TCM schools which produce a more balanced doctor and, to be fair, I have seen the western medical schools churning out OMG what-the-hell-is-that person-doing-in-medicine people. Just look at the mass of "nurse practitioners" who go out there believing themselves to be doctors but do not have the in-depth drug training that a MD has. To be perfectly fair, of course there are some good and even great nurse practitioners. But I see a dangerous tendency towards dilution of patient care and the situation is already chaotic as it is with the internal corruption and power struggle of the drug and insurance industries law contributions. "standard of care" - huh? As to western medicine, anyone looking at it objectively can see there are times when western medicine is called for and there are all the other times when CCM is the much better approach. For example: Gunshot wound, rushed to the hospital. Which is better? Well, actually both. There should be a medical qigong doctor there to help stabilize the person initially while the surgeon is prepped, then after the western doctor does their expertise, help the patient recover. Then follow up by CCM herbal medicine or western medicine whichever is more appropriate in any given situation. THAT would be more the world medicine approach I see. Another example is the stroke patient I mention in this threadhttp://thetaobums.com/topic/33921-what-are-legitimate-qi-abilitiespower/page-14 We could have been arrogant and said "This CCM clinic is all this person needs!" but we would have been wrong as we all knew that a follow up with the western medicine hospital was the appropriate thing. THEN, after being stabilized fully, a follow up in the CCM clinic would have been appropriate. This is my concept of world medicine.

" If you want some scientific evidence of Ya Mu's work, you will have to ask him himself but his background is very sound and the SM-lineage consists of those 5 teachers that single-handedly opened Qigong to the public. So we would not be able to discuss on this board if they hadn't existed and taught his teacher Wang Juemin. Maybe Ya Mu has some info about the clinic Wang Juemin led and the results they got. They surely had a reason for calling him a "national treasure"." No "scientific" studies although I have been involved in 3 science investigations. One was the magnetic standing waves set up by the qi projection I mentioned earlier, another was brain wave observation on a client receiving qi projection and the sleep lab thing where brain went through 3 stages of sleep in 3 minutes while standing doing qigong. So sorry, nothing to write home about as I seem to have the same number of scientific studies to my credit as does Gary Clyman and... MOST of the qigong/neigong teachers in the world. But wait a minute, I forgot to add, the experiments I did were observed by A medical doctor! HA HA HA Master Wang ran a full blown medical qigong hospital, not a clinic. Results would probably not be believed except by people who have actually done authentic neigong-medical qigong and are able to do qi projection themselves. I saw paralyzed stroke victims get up and walk out, total rehabilitation of accident victims who couldn't walk, large breast tumor shrunk into nothing not detectable by x-ray; ahh actually there wasn't much in the way of trauma or disease that I didn't see. Master Wang was one of the more powerful Masters of his time. Between his hospital, Master Hu's hospital, and the clinics run by students such as me, we represent more than 6 decades of successful medical qigong with an extremely high result rate. Lets add in students I have had for right at 20 years, who ALSO have astounding clinical efficacy and stay booked up for 3-4 weeks in advance and I guess the system has way over 100 years represented of direct clinical experience with extremely high efficacy. Another instance I could report while speaking of China, observed by 4 doctors (yes, you got it - the required western MD), was a stroke victim brought into a clinic where I was working in China whose blood pressure was sky high (I can't remember the numbers but probably have this somewhere), was experiencing visual distortion (two of everything) and demonstrating obvious signs of stroke. While waiting on the ambulance they asked was there anything I could do so I did. In 7 minutes of treatment his blood pressure was brought down to normal, his normal vision returned and there was no further sign of a stroke. All observed by A medical doctor. We still loaded him up in the ambulance to be taken to the hospital. I have reported several simplified case histories on this board. I wonder if those who harp about scientific study and western medical doctors realize the number of Phd's and MD's who practice authentic qigong/neigong? Heck, I currently have several in my program and have had probably somewhere between 100 - 200 in my classes through the years. Probably 20,000 or more?? in the US alone. I know when I taught at the medical school at least 400-500 doctors were exposed to medical qigong.