Ya Mu

This was basically answered by Taomeow's post, "When people realize that the practice of medicine is the practice of power (incidentally, in Native American tongues these words, medicine and power, are interchangeable), they might start understanding what is, was, and will be happening to medicine -- any medicine anywhere." Yes, it is all about efficacy. You appear to have a misunderstanding about how I utilize the terms "higher level" and "lower level". PaiMei touches upon it in his post about vibration. But I wholly agree with you that it is all about efficacy and doing the right thing for a client or patient. If a clinician does not have a high efficacy just what the heck are they doing in the (any) field of medicine?

"I still feel that I learn more in one day of practice than I've learned reading all of them." And this was basically my point about the books. They can be good reference material and if I didn't actually like books so damn much I would probably be a lot richer. Thank you for your contribution. "When people realize that the practice of medicine is the practice of power (incidentally, in Native American tongues these words, medicine and power, are interchangeable), they might start understanding what is, was, and will be happening to medicine -- any medicine anywhere." I think this statement is going to be one of the most important contributions to this thread. This realization is extremely important to each and every practitioner and it doesn't matter whether we are speaking of allopathic, Chinese, Native American, or any other and it doesn't matter whether the technique is acupuncture, prayer, allopathic drugs, Chinese herbal, European herbal, or ANY modality; this always applies. A quote from the head physician at Guan An Men hospital, "Our acupuncture doctors who practice qigong achieve far better results than our acupuncture doctors who don't." Yes, adding techniques just to be a collector does ... not much. Pulling the correct tool out of the toolbox is always the right thing. A small story here: I saw a licensed western physician tell an old lady who was complaining about a certain ailment to get an egg, go out and bury it during the next full moon (which was coming up that weekend), and say "-particular words-". As I was studying with this physician, with me being a particularly stickler for details and proper clinical approach and experienced practitioner (HA HA), I was quite appalled. Quite appalled and probably full of righteous indignation as I later asked this good doctor why in the hell did he do that. He kinda just looks at me with a grin and I have to wait until the next week to get an answer. Sure enough the lady comes into the office the next week gushing at how well the doctor's cure worked. After the visit the doctor looks at me and said whether or not I believed it made no diifference at all as SHE believed it. And of course a prime example of body-mind medicine. I agree that the label is here to stay and think it quite applicable. And, even though I am not a great fan, it is not my purpose to trash TCM, or I wouldn't have made the original post. TCM has a lot to offer. Yes, efficacy does vary form practitioner to practitioner in qigong healing JUST LIKE IT DOES IN ALL FORMS OF MEDICINE. No different. But very good point about utilizing trial and error. Again, which of course applies to ALL forms of medicine. Perhaps not meant that way, but to me your last paragraph sounds like more subtle trashing than anything else. Just how would we know about any particular form if people didn't "go on about it"? Hmm? If you are referring to my post, I gave the person an honest answer. Good point about vibration. I think most don't understand why this knowledge is important.

Aksijaha, Yes, I do believe "World Medicine" does allow that. If you look at the post above you, made by TM, you will see a book containing powerful medicine but these teachings are not generally included (really, not at all) in TCM. So your question could be rephrased, "Are TCM practitioners ALLOWED to incorporate these teachings into their practice?" My opinion is YES! Or do you just have something against Native American medicine, which is very powerful? Yes of course I believe, as I stated above, that a "medicine practitioner" should be allowed to take what works into their system and not have their head in the sand about being a "purist". The goal SHOULD be to utilize whatever tool is needed at the moment to achieve the highest efficacy. What occurs in the purist camp, whether that be by choice or by law, is substandard treatment. An example of what I am referring to would be the child who comes into a western medicine office with a sore throat. The western medical doctor examines the child and determines, through their own experience and knowledge, that an herbal tea would be the best approach in this particular case. But instead, due to something called "standard of care" (purist) they must give the child an antibiotic, which the child in this example, doesn't need. And, with another example the antibiotic may be the best choice. First, do no harm, then achieve the highest efficacy should be the goal here and not jealousy or discrimination of any medicine form.

Almost missed your post. Here is the thing, between my wife and I our medicine library is about 6'x50' stuffed full of collections of texts on Chinese therapeutics. At least 15-20 (probably more) different texts on acupuncture alone then corresponding texts on specialized diseases, treatments, Chinese herbal medicine (perhaps 50 books or more). tui na, tui na for babies, specialized moxa treatment , qigong, medical qigong, female problems, male problems, fertility issues, pain specialties, Japanese needling, specialized Chinese needling, Korean needling, etc etc etc And then there is our vast western medicine library...and my homeopathic medicine library... osteopathic medicine library... veterinarian Western/Chinese/chiropractic (how did that get in there?) ...American/European herbal medicine library, Native American herbal medicine Cherokee, Lakota and miscellaneous. Now I am going to say something that will be controversial but you ask about further reading and this is my genuine opinion. And this opinion is based on studying the above mentioned books as well as a l o n g time running and operating a clinic. They are none of them worth reading IMO. I studied all this stuff for more years than most people that post here are aged. And yeah, the therapeutics work. But I learned therapeutics that are written down nowhere (except my own material) that IMO far exceed anything in those books and if someone spends 1-3 weekends with me they can learn the beginnings of a IMO much higher end therapeutic system that will give them far greater efficacy than if they spent 30 years with those books. So, OK, an answer to your question, No, I can't recommend any further reading. Except possibly my book for an idea of high level medical qigong. And that is not worth reading compared to actually learning the medical qigong and Taoist medicine, even though it does list unique, never before published medical qigong treatment methods.

Pai Mei, Oh I don't disagree with you. Semantics - I simply don't like using the word "paranormal" because to me, these are natural talents that are enhanced and awakened/molded/made stronger through the art of cultivation. In other words, more "normal" than PARA-normal. edit: The main point of my post was that anyone NORMALLY should be able to do qi manipulation, through proper training and that a valid neigong practice should be able to accomplish this in a relatively short time.

I thought the thread was about legitimate qi abilities and not paranormal or magical tricks. Back to the legitimate qi ability discussion. If a person practices a valid neigong system for a minimum of 6 months there is no reason they shouldn't be able to do at least some basic qi manipulation. And within 3 years be able to project qi on a good level.. And within 6 years be accomplished. And within 10-20 years have at least a good mastery. That is, those who actually practice - it does require the time&effort. And of course, with that ability there should be corresponding study of technique. Of course it is also true that everyone is different in their natural talents and what may take one person 3 years can be accomplished by another in 6 months. And it is true that all neigong practices are not equal. What may take 3 years in one is accomplished in less time by another. The above figures are conservative. We see usually 80-100% results of wai qi liao fa in workshops by beginners with only two days of intense neigong practice. And have done so in every workshop. And it doesn't matter whether a person believes it or not - it happens equally with those who understandably don't believe it possible. Qi manipulation works and works quite well. For those that have never been exposed to this portion of the Chinese Arts I did write a small article http://thetaobums.com/topic/33958-a-basic-primer-for-the-healing-arts-from-china/

Leandro, thanks for the links. I found the articles interesting and agree with many of the points. Gerard, I am referring to Chinese therapeutics and not self practices, although I did mention qigong as a self-healing exercise. Perhaps I should have left that out as my intention here is to speak of applied therapeutics. Kevin, thanks for your views. Myself I find sharing the views of both yourself and the opposite side of the coin. For one thing, unlike IMO far too many who get involved in Chinese Therapeutics, I am not anti-western medicine. My view is the concept of what I refer to as "world medicine". Let's take the whole of what the world offers that works and chunk out what doesn't. For purists of any camp I am sure that statement doesn't sit well.

If you remember, I have explained this through the explanation of what seers see when they observe practitioners of our system They see the dan tian start to glow, then get brighter and brighter, denser & denser, then begin rising up through the center of the body, opening up each energy center in turn, then popping out through the top of the head connecting with the higher levels.

It is interesting and amazing that this manifests in different ways in people. I have seen all sorts of variations in my students. Due to this as well as the summation of all I have learned, I define "seeing" as 'totality of perception" which may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with the eyes. You have the right of it in terms of vibrational frequency. This is what many in this field don't appear to understand. Some think "all I have to do is project qi". Which indeed could have an effect but HA!, much more to it than that. And yeah, it would be difficult to impossible to show anything like this on video.

SOG, As this was an interesting topic I would love to see it get back on and continue on-topic. What are Legitimate Qi abilities? In medical qigong "seeing" is one of the talents. What I have found over the years is that this talent will manifest to different levels in people who practice. On the physical level seeing can go from seeing energy to seeing on the organ or even cellular level inside people's bodies. On the spiritual side this seeing can go across dimensions. I have seen in students that it manifests many times all of a sudden but usually based on the amount of time&effort practice the student puts in. I believe I have before described the seeing level of the two "x-ray vision" girls in the Chinese Medical Qigong hospital in which I trained. They would evaluate the patient, tell the qigong doctor where the sick qi was located and the qigong doctor would perform wai qi liao fa, healing with external energy, until the seer was satisfied that the most had been done for the patient. I have been grateful to experience this talent in many of my students. Of course it only matures with the neigong practice, but sometimes with the qi projection in the workshops it spontaneously occurs in students for the first time. What I have seen is that everyone has their own particular natural talent and as to whether seeing is one of them there is usually no way of knowing until it happens. Unless of course it has been happening all a person's life. In this case the neigong helps the person mature, as well as become at peace with, their talent. Therefore another "What are Legitimate Qi abilities" perspective.

The collection of healing practices are now called medical qigong and have been for quite sometime so my referral to them as medical qigong is accurate. But I have no problem with referring to them as wai qi liao fa and do so often. You list 2 people who do both setting thinks on fire and healing practices. I am just saying the fact that both of these fellows can do both doesn't mean the two things are related, except in basic gongfu practice. One of my points was that in terms of healing/starting fire one doesn't have anything to do with the other as the only real commonality is the basic gongfu. Since the two are not really related, the practical use of starting fire would only be starting fire and unrelated to healing practices. The other point was that IMO starting fire is not a good way to promote medical qigong (or any other way you wish to call it of healing with energy, wai qi liao fa). And I gave an example to support my view. The concession to your point is that yes, the basic gongfu of learning wai qi liao fa could possibly lead to the ability for a person to set things on fire. But it really is two different vibrational energetics. There is no reason for you to drop out of the conversation.

Oh, I wasn't the one who made ignorant statements about medical qigong, homeopathy, and placebo. But lets get back to the subject of the thread, instead of your usual insulting manner of continuously spamming. Post something worthwhile and not the same bandwidth eating nonsense as you always post, destroying thread after thread after thread. There are many people on here who are actual practitioners who would like to intelligently discuss some of these subjects. For instance, answer the OP's question.

Sure. There is a difference in actually knowing what one is speaking of and making proclamations based on personal ignorance of those particular subjects. You could try studying and practicing to help you know about these things.

And now you have studied homeopathy, magnetics, and the properties of copper as well! Sugar pills or any other placebo, can possibly achieve effects - but only truly effective therapeutics keep achieving those effects. Anyone who actually studied this would know that if someone were given sugar pills for pain, and it initially works, it won't keep on working - the effect degrades. And anyone who actually studied medical qigong would know that the effect works repeatedly.

The problem is there are people who post - a lot - who don't even practice anything, who have never studied any complete system, who promote basic misinformation due to their ignorance of what is actually out there. Thank you for posting this.

Actually YOU said it more than once.

To those who, like TG/mpg, are ignorant of medical qigong, it is a system of therapeutics that comes from the hospitals of China, with decades of history of use. Yes, hospitals where nothing but qi projection is utilized. And it doesn't have anything to do with placebo, but actual techniques that get actual results.

Sour grapes? What are you talking about? And when did you study medical qigong? Isn't it the truth that you haven't and don't actually know anything whatsoever about it? Per your own words you don't even practice anything at all.

Jox said, "So ... I learned step by step trough whole set of GOT 1, from Dec. I think ... I have been practicing it less or more regularly each day 30 - 40 min after iron shirt standing. While doing the set I dive into feeling of movements, peace ... When I switch from movement to movement, seems as I changed the channel ... Energy flows ... Interesting that energy become thicker ... For example when I roll the ball I feel my hand/body as on fire ... When doing the "atomic structure" abowe the head I feel quite a presure on my head ... After practice I have no words for some time ... "cant" talk ... My state without words was quite annoying to my girlfriend yesterday ... I explained to her that I am "hit" bacause of qi gong ... Maybe better for me to take a short rest after practice and then socialise ... :)" Jox, I think you now know what I mean when I use the word "shifting" in describing these movements. It is best to sit or do something mundane a bit as we go places that are beyond linear time & space and when we come back it just is a bit weird to be in conventional time & space.

Not misleading. Setting something on fire and medical qigong are two totally different things approached in two totally different ways, with the exception of basic gongfu. One does not imply the other. Let me give an example of what I am referring to. Go up to a practitioner who has reached a good level with qi projection and is knowledgeable in medical qigong and ask them to set something on fire. No harm done - you asked. But MOST will either laugh at you or ignore you as it serves no purpose regardless of whether they could or could not do it. Now go up to a person who can set something on fire and ask them to work on a particular dis-ease. Would most people want to be worked on simply because the practitioner could set something on fire and were thought to be "powerful"? Knowledge of one doesn't imply the other. I have no problem with John Chang or anyone else doing their healing work and applaud it. Personally, I see nothing whatsoever about setting something on fire as a good thing to promote qi manipulation and it dang sure doesn't promote medical qigong. I think the most thing I have seen with it is that it brings out those who want to duplicate it so they can show off at parties (Oh man is that cool!). It also brings about threads on forums so people can talk like they know something about qi manipulation when in fact they have never actually practiced it nor studied it. If a person wishes to study medical qigong that is what they should study. It is a whole and complicated field of study just like western medicine is a whole and complicated field of study. Good posts. Good post. I don't think most here are bad mouthing John Chang nor your system. I know I have refrained from ever even mentioning the system because I respect the fact that the system's practitioners have numerous times asked to be left alone. And I would hope/wish that everyone who posts here would respect that. I think what you are seeing in this thread is practitioners who do actually know something about qi manipulation responding to the folks who post who have no real knowledge of qi projection as well as responses from those who, like me, disagree that setting something on fire serves to positively promote qigong/neigong knowledge due to the perceptions and misunderstandings of lots of western peoples. Personally I thoroughly respect any authentic neigong system as well as the practitioners - that is, the people who actually practice - as I know the amount of time&effort it can take.

SOG said,"I have healed many, many people- one of a brain tumor, one of blindness in 1 eye-..." To me THIS is the impressive aspect of "legitimate qi abilities". The other was cool but IMO pales in comparison to this. I wonder how many posters here are even aware of the medical aspects of qi projection or that there have been entire hospitals where ONLY qi projection is done. Vastly misunderstood to say the least. The majority appear to want to see people set something on fire so they can say "wow". I would say "ho hum" - didn't accomplish anything that a match couldn't do. Although I do admit, if all the matches and lighters suddenly disappeared then it would be useful. To me, to be able to help another person where western medicine has failed is the most beneficial use of qi. I don't think there is any kind of video you can post that would convince any majority of people. But YOU know when you help someone and that is more important than attempting to convince anyone. But please post away as I like to see the ones with healing or awakening someone or raising someones energy body vibration or clearing their channels. Oh, and I encourage you to come out of the closet and be your real self. There are few enough people out there doing legitimate qi projection.

How can you be so misinformed? EVERYONE here knows that making fire (due to matches no longer being made, I guess) is much more powerful and important than any medical application of qi. What are you thinking? Seriously, Good of you to step up to the plate. However, just to warn you of what you face, I have offered for 30 years free services of qi projection to anyone wishing to do medical qigong study and no one has ever taken me up on it. One of the problems is these studies take bundles of money to accomplish. Renting an acoustics lab, for instance, is far from "having access to an oscilloscope". We did one trial study of standing electromagnetic waves from qi projection where the data was not released due to a "calibration contamination"; or really due, I think, to the PhD not wanting to share and keeping it for their as yet unpublished book. But it was really interesting to see that every time I projected the standing magnetic waves occurred (as witnessed by an MD observing the instrumentation). Also interesting was the fact that it took them quite a while (around 15 to 20 minutes) to dampen down after I quit projecting. But really, what the hell does this mean, practically? Not a damn thing unless something practical is accomplished. Which it was. Also, bear in mind that even though we can measure infrasonic up to gigahertz, IMO the complexity of qi projection has components and component frequencies that are far beyond what we are able to measure. Perhaps in another 10 years or so the equipment will be nearly there. Still, how can one measure "intent"? As in, when qi projection occurs it takes both energy and intent. It cannot be measured and probably never will be. Devices like the "qi machines" which output infrasonic frequency as measured from qi projection in an acoustic lab, are only one small component of Qi. IMO we will never see machines capable of output of the entire spectrum of energetics. Although I am hoping for better understanding of what qi is in the future.

I am wondering your plans of accomplishing this 10 year period for everyone to know qi is real. Many people can see and feel direct evidence but still not think it real, so your work is cut out for you. I had hoped your statement would become true 30 years ago, then 20, then 10, then now; yet you still see people on a grand scale demonstrating ignorance of the Chinese Taoist & Buddhist arts. Especially where medical qigong wai qi liao fa is concerned as comparatively very few have actually studied it. Yes,for sure you certainly have a lot of work to do.

Very interesting way of describing the Gift of the Tao. Yes, when a person just looks at the DVD without actually trying the practice, it is totally impossible for them to be able to have any idea what these moves are about. As energy patterns as seen on the higher levels, when a person duplicates these patterns and shifts with each move, wondrous happenings occur for the energy body, raising the vibrations to the higher levels. You were a joy to have in the distance class.

Sea of Light song http://store.qigongamerica.com (or just send me an email and I will send a download link) free to anyone that wants to listen to a dirty one-mic live recording