Ya Mu

My thoughts as well. Have several stories and experiences that confirm this for me. ---------------------------------------------- In general, A person is not going to "become a medicine man" just because they think they want to be. Nor through academic study. Yes, the truths from this culture can be integrated into one's perception, just as the truth's from Taoism But we should not wish to emulate a culture that has made as many mistakes as any other just because it seems sexy, which is what I see a whole lot of people in the USA doing.

Tui Na and Taoist Medicine = good stuff I like a formula called Super Milk Thistle X by Integrative Therapeutics. It has milk thistle, artichoke & dandelion in it with a bit of licorice. The milk thistle is bound to phosphatidylcholine for improved bioavailability. Not suggesting anyone here take this particular formula; I take it 4 times a year.

Most likely what you are perceiving is that storms are pushing negative energy in front of them. Most people who practice energetics can sense this so you are not alone in feeling it. But storms are very cleansing and are a needed thing. Think how stagnant it would be without them.

Curious as to where do you live that this is so? I have not seen this in the USA. edit: Good point about manifesting Light; indeed it is a different level.

True for accomplished qigong masters. Many on the qigong circuit, however, are not transmitting shen energy (methinks you are spoiled being around your teacher - try going to a qigong convention) . Glad you posted this distinction.

Hey Stig, Actually I agree with you much more than I think you realize. It is the same in the qigong world as in the MA world - full of nonsense, bullshit, and not the real thing. Yes, in both fields it is buyer beware. Anyone seeking study in either field should look to the basics of training, then build on that foundation. Perhaps your endeavor will make a difference. I guess I am a bit skeptic as to it making a difference due to all I have seen in the qigong healing field. Except for the one master, all the MA I have seen, both in person and on video, have someone pushing physically. It may only be a small movement but the movement is there. My interest in this is from the energetics viewpoint. Which is why I am more interested in off body. It has been proven to me that Fa Jin most definitely can be done off body. But I certainly agree that you will have to look long and hard to find it. Drew made a most excellent point in one of his posts which I agree with, that you will not see the higher level qi masters attempting this.

Friend posted about doing this sort of thing; said it made him feel ill. I wrote of one experience in my book where I was attempting to knock over a can at some distance. I could make the can shake and rattle but never could knock it off of where it was sitting. This was a very foolish act on my part ...using qi for ... nothing. I have never tried this since and don't agree with those who say "why not". The "why not" for me is that this is not wu wei unless there were a specific need in the moment of the moment. I don't believe in using qi for these purposes.

Since you quoted me and then said this, I'll have to assume you didn't read through the thread? I can sum it up as best I know for you. Stig has a facebook group which is devoted to the topic of fa jin. They have decided to find out if it is a repeatable phenomena or technique or are all the folks posting videos utilizing mechanical push and attempting to make it mysterious in order to be ?. They have a reward posted for anyone who can demonstrate this. My view, as I have stated in several posts here, is that this will not prove anything, that it is a fact that qi is dynamic, so amplitude, etc can and most probably will be variable when utilized over and over in a "test". However, now they are speaking of mechanical vibration and not qi so my interest is not a piqued as before. I am neither for nor against the test but do think he has good intentions and it is not a "witch hunt". When I learned that they are speaking of on body versus off body I'll admit my interest has waned as I have experienced this off body. I attempted to make a point about energetics and vibration in that a pure energy technique would not need physical contact whereas a physical contact technique could be a physical vibration which could induce that in another. This is different than an off-body pure energy method as I am sure you know. I have no dog in this hunt. I did post one time on the facebook group but quickly learned that most there are fixed in their views of energetics and do not think qi projection is real. Just making some observations about energetics which is of course what I am interested in. What I experienced as fa jin was definitely energetics and also off body so no mechanical vibration was involved

I don't think any who post here are interested in that either. Personally not only am I not interested in that but I am also not interested in the kind of energy that has to have a physical push to make it look like it is energy. Again, IF it is a pure energy experience then physical contact is not needed. IF physical contact is needed then it has a mechanical vibration component. And from my understanding from what you yourself posted, it does. And again, at least two who post on here have seen this type of fa jin without touching and there was nothing wimpy about it. And I didn't say that the mechanical vibration instead of energy method was not super awesome extremely powerful oh my god beyond heaven stupendous. I'm sure it is.

It isn't just energy if contact HAS to be made. It may be physical induced vibration if contact has to be made. All this would be much more interesting if the rules called for off-body. The master who did fa jin to me could do it off body. We project qi off body. The people I have accidentally knocked over in the past were several feet away; we see people move around with the qi projection as in it physically moves them. Why can't the martial guys do it off body? The only possible conclusion is that they are talking about a physical happening instead of a pure energy happening. A pure energy event does not require physical contact. And there are at least two people who post on here who have seen this. Not to take anything away from those MA who can move just a bit and send someone flying. That alone takes a great deal of gongfu.

"...Neigong, on the other side, creates, builds and generate a new kind of energy from the outside. The energy thus created has a "frequency" and characteristics peculiar to the system (the way it is created) so mixing this system with another would create huge problems as you would be mixing TWO different kind of energies. ... YM" And this, is a very good point. Another good point about most qigong which is why I said the majority would not even recognize neigong: "Nowadays, for as much as it is my experience, most schools and traditions labelled as "qigong" transmit either a void kind of gymnastic or at best a form of 'tuna' which is meant to balance the flow of "qi" already existing in the pratictioners' body. No matter what the advertisement say, this is used at best to produce balance of the body functions and therefore health."

The "discount qi projection" was not referring to you personally but comes as feedback from my one-time postings on the facebook group. Most that post there are simply not interested in the overall subject of qi but only if they can knock someone over, which I do understand is the purpose of MA. The majority there do not believe in such a thing as qi projection and won't believe in such a thing as they (the majority) all have hard-core beliefs. But this is certainly not limited to your facebook group as it is just a reflection of the overall population. I have had world class martial artists in my neigong classes and certainly a few do get it, but the majority never will as they are only willing to put the gongfu into their knock-down abilities and never make the connection between their internal/immortal self and the physical self to think they may develop further/faster by putting the gongfu into that aspect. A few do. It is not that I don't think you have been pursuing a worthwhile goal or that I think you are out to discredit certain people or anything like that. 6 out of 10 tries should certainly be fair. I do not think you will ever see it due, as I said earlier, to the dynamic aspect of qi (drew referred to the quantum aspect - good). Are there a very few who are capable of repeatable ability to do this? I think so but also perhaps numbered on one hand. The master who did it to me had practiced many hours a day since age 6 and was 93 years old. So gongfu is the name of the game. Also, I had only just met him for 10 or 15 minutes when he did it and had no preconceptions of that type of martial ability. However, and this does appear to be a big however, I was already sensitive to qi. So I certainly can't say this is not a factor and in fact do believe it is a factor for most people. Is it dependent on a person being sensitive to qi? I think, for the majority of practitioners this is a fair assumption as the people I knocked over, even if they were not my students and had never met me before, ended up studying with me due to that very sensitivity. As I said earlier I have learned, through control, not to throw qi in that manner so as to insure it doesn't happen, as I am only interested in the healing/transformation aspect of the qi projection. The general population runs from 0 to 100 in terms of qi sensitivity. On the opposite side of the coin, I have found, however, that the healing aspect is most certainly not dependent on that qi sensitivity. It would follow that the knock down aspect is not either. I personally have never investigated nor purposefully attempted to further this. I hope you do find someone who can do this with your tests. It would be interesting to see. Best to you! Gonna still wish for opportunity to catch up for that fishing trip!

One goal of Stillness-Movement is to open and strengthen these. Jim McRitchie has good info.

I guess it is a worthwhile goal but I just don't see it changing much in what people wish to believe. I have video's of qi projection out there and most MA comment on "that is impossible" or some such nonsense.The reason it is impossible to them is that most have been unwilling to train in the authentic energy cultivation arts. A few, yes, but not most. My opinion is that very few people, EVEN if it were scientifically proven, are going to be willing to put the time and effort into learning. Drew's post has a link to scientific evidence. Do we see people running from other forms and western medicine to learn this? A few, but it (the study) really didn't change anything concerning the individual time&effort part. Most people, as a whole, would rather read a book or two and become armchair internet experts or stick with their old form of thinking. MAists will mostly stick with their old thinking/training and so will medicine-ists. Come to think of it time&effort suk; think I'll go have a beer. Of course I just got through doing 3 hrs of neigong first.

And one thing is that it appears more people are more interested in whether a person can be knocked down than in this type of healing. Good of you to post the links! Does this relate to what is posted in this thread about "fa jin"? Depends if one thinks fa jin to be qi manipulation or something else entirely, doesn't it. As far as "fa jin", I have experienced the real thing; therefore to me it is very real and I don't need the scientific "proof". The wall I was headed toward was proof enough. So is qi manipulation the same thing but only applied differently? I believe the development is the same; I knocked several people over before I learned control. The one that scared me most was a karate master who was sitting in a chair several feet from me. I thought he was going to get up and kick my tail as he was big and he was bleeding. Instead he signed up for my workshop...whew! I don't do that anymore.

Hi Jeff, He and others have a lot of stuff posted on thefajin project on facebook,; he gave a link earlier. I did read through some of it and from what I could get from it is that they are looking for repeatable (how many times is enough?) ability to knock someone over without touching. (Stig can make this clear if I am wrong) The group appears to me to have no interest whatsoever in qi projection, appear to totally discount it, and are focused on the martial aspects of fa jin. I have found that few MA understand the concept of wai qi liao fa and only talk about fa jin in terms of knockouts. So I think change in brainwave activity, which a lot of us can demonstrate, is nothing they are interested in. I think Stig is an honest upright fellow so I do believe his intentions are honorable. I also know that qi projection/qi manipulation is variable (and even if fa jin were entirely different [not IMO], it would be as well) and that it would be extremely difficult to impossible to have repeatable same amplitude measurements, even if we did have the evolved instrumentation, due to dynamics of energy flow. Too many variables which can not be eliminated. Yes, an average could be demonstrated, if such instrumentation were available, but not over and over repeatability of same amplitude. Of course this is a moot point for those that believe fa jin is something else entirely than qi projection or manipulation of qi.

Cost. The minimum cost, with any teacher, for 10 years of study is $ 163,800. Assumptions are made to figure this: Assumption is that you value your time at $15 an hour. If more then the figure is higher. Assuming 3 hrs of practice per day. Bump that up to 5 hrs per day and of course the cost is higher.

Neigong is Qigong but Qigong is not necessarily Neigong. The Term "Qigong" was coined by my teacher's teacher Hu Yao Zhen and his contemporaries as an "umbrella" term to cover all the practices. These days mostly external movements including calisthenics are usually referred to as Qigong while internal cultivation practices are usually referred to as Neigong. One problem with these category descriptions is that a person can LOOK at an external movement and think it only Qigong when it is actually Neigong, so a lot of it has to do with intent and energy vibration, and system. Also, one can read about a system that some call neigong but when they practice it find that it is not. Another way of explaining would be that a person versed in Qigong may not even recognize Neigong, although a person versed in authentic Neigong should be able to tell the difference and tell if a qigong form has "qi cultivation" or if it is only calisthenics and has no more ability to cultivate qi than rebounding or other exercise. I know when I first started teaching in the USA the term "Neigong" was barely known. But to be fair (HA HA) the term "Qigong" was more widely known but still only around 1 in a 1000 had heard the term. "Is that some type of yoga?" "Yeah, that's kung fu, right?" And then of course we get into the term "Medical Qigong" which has been bastardized to seven hells. It should mean "wai qi liao fa" which means "healing with external energy" but many who can't do wai qi liao fa wish to also have the term in their marketing, so they say medical qigong when referring to exercises they prescribe. While I have no problem with doctors prescribing qigong, one could easily take that train of thought and term all qigong "medical qigong". It is not. Now, why did I mention medical qigong? Cause now I am going to say that mostly neigong is what develops/cultivates the type/quality of qi that is used/highest efficacy in medical qigong whereas a person could do many of the exercises called "qigong" for 20 years and never be able to project qi. Authentic neigong time to be able to project qi? In as little as 2 days of practice, working in clinic in as little as 3 months, proficiency in as little as 3 years. Mastery in as little as 3-5 years. Confusing, isn't it? Cause now someone is going to come along, disagree, and say the REAL definition is ....

There is a definite difference in mental "focusing" versus a gentle awareness. Suggest you don't apply so much effort of mental and only put gentle awareness on dan tian. The other energy centers can be dealt with in different ways. Our method is twofold: 1) through keeping the gentle awareness on dan tian, the balance begins to occur by energy going upward (once energy field is established and reaches a certain density and a certain vibration) in a natural progressive manner, as the centers balance out. The reasons for this are many but one can look at it like this: bypassing a center and going to another can lead to an imbalance, such as mental imbalance. In other words, if a person has not dealt with emotional manifestations leading to energy imbalance how can they expect to be FULLY open to true heart? I have seen many problems caused by not fully allowing this natural progression to happen, the most by those that "want to open 3rd eye" before they are ready. 2) The second approach we use, which is in harmony with the first approach, is the sequential energy center activation, balancing & dimensional expansion method which addresses all energy centers equally, leading to this balance as well as awareness of dimensionality of the energy centers. Wu Wei. Referencing the thread in the Taoist subforum, there are many intellectual and philosophical definitions and I don't know what yours is. In our system we come to know, only through the continued practice, that these definitions are meaningless to us. This true connection, for us, is the very thing it appears you are arguing against. For us, "dancing in Wu Wei" only happens once the centers are opened and balanced and with the energy at proper vibration connecting with heaven. It is this very flow that allows us to be in wu wei. We come to know that Wu Wei is not some concept of relaxation and "not doing" but is a real interaction of walking inside harmonious flow. I think a part of the "tension" you are experiencing has to do with past lives and emotional trauma and will work itself through with continued practice. We ALL have something which we bring up to work through when we practice energetics. BUT always use common sense and if you feel a practice is not for you or if you experience overwhelming physical or emotional trauma then don't do it. Best to you!

dwai and dawei have brought up a very good point here. ( I sometimes get you two mixed up ) This thread's posts on wu wei interpretations points to the fact that the majority of perceived definitions of wu wei are from the philosophical and scholarly viewpoint. The posts reflecting internal cultivation and energetic awareness are much fewer. Those who practice the internal Taoist teachings arrive at a different view of wu wei that is foreign to those who think qi is a metaphor as well as to those that believe in the concept of qi but don't actually practice methodology of internal arts. To me, as a practitioner of the internal arts, I have to admit that before, a very long time ago, when I thought of myself as an educated Taoist because I "knew" I intellectually understood TTC and other Taoist teachings, and went around quoting such (ha ha no internet then), my view was almost identical to the viewpoint stated so much here. Living and dancing in wu wei, arrived at through the energetic practices, totally changed that view. IMO and IMPE the two views never converge until the practitioner is a practitioner instead of a thinker or philosopher.

I think the key is to take our cultivation seriously at each moment of the moment but to take the mundane as a place to enjoy as well as BE. Sure, dance in the wu wei in the moment of the moment, but no reason not to play guitar - loudly. We are meant to experience. And, the ascended masters have a sense of humor.

Phi92 Instead of trying to define a Taoist, I suggest instead to search for inner truth through Taoist inner alchemy. When you have found it Tao will have found you. There certainly should be teachers of Taoist alchemy in Croatia as about 20 years ago I had a Croatian student who was already studying inner alchemy and he said he had learned locally. The truth is, no amount of words can define Tao so therefore no amount of words can define a Taoist. One either walks in the flow of Tao or they don't.

Master Wang's 3 things necessary in order to advance in qigong which I have found to be absolutely true: 1) Calmness 2) Be a good & moral person 3) Daily practice Other lists could include: 1) Balance in your life. If you like to garden do that. If you like to play music, do that, etc. Balance is needed. 2) Laugh and enjoy yourself. We only spend, in the overall scheme of things, scant nano-seconds (no, actually less than that), here on Earth in a life. Get the most out of it. 3) Live each moment in appreciation of every thing that you are doing at that moment and be in the moment. In other words, when you eat an orange EAT The ORANGE instead of eating it while you are engaged in anything else. Apply this to EVERYTHING.

What are your goals? If they are to practice TCM professionally then, like any form of professional training, you are going to have to go to school at an accredited program THEN pass certification exams by NCCAOM. I don't think it would be allowed to sit for these without a physical degree and I know of no schools that can offer an online degree that would be accepted by the NCCAOM. In addition, acupuncture would require physical training - no way around that. Chinese herbs would require years of study, no way around that. Most programs in USA are now Master degree programs. If you only want to learn ABOUT TCM there are many resources. I have not researched the online resources but I would think these exist. Be careful and research any particular thing you find. A 3rd thing that could possibly interest someone, is utilizing elements of both TCM and Classical Chinese Medicine inside another field's scope of practice. This is entirely possible and can make a huge difference in client/patient outcome. For instance, a Chiropractor, a Physical Therapist, a Massage Therapist, a counselor, and other professions could utilize elements of these systems inside their systems. I have many students from various professions who do this. Examples include: Massage Therapists utilizing Medical Qigong, Tui Na, and other forms of therapeutics from China. Medical doctors who utilize medical qigong. Chiropractors who utilize medical qigong and Tui Na. The key is to always make sure, in the particular state you are living in, that any therapeutic form is within your legal scope of practice. Bottom line: I am pretty sure you couldn't legally operate as a TCM practitioner with an online certificate. It would be interesting to find out that I am wrong. Laws do vary state to state.

http://qigongamerica.blogspot.com/2013/01/wu-wei-understanding-what-it-means.html