Ya Mu

Interesting post. I had not seen this 16% figure but this makes perfect sense. Growth rate could certainly multiply with just a single tipping point. Yeah, I think others and I have known we were pioneers of this and have had a realist view that it would be an amazing but unrealistic thing for awareness to be raised in our lifetimes to the point where medical qigong is mainstream in every medical clinic and hospital. But I also think many of these others feel like I do and that is that many of our students WILL see this awareness occur in their lifetimes. Really wouldn't mind seeing it now, though, as it would help so many people.

I will check through my lists and see if I can find someone in your area,and will get back to you. Thanks for your heartfelt reply. This is the type of information needed for everyone to consider. "... i have a close friend who is very skilled in complementary healing methods and we have this kernel of an idea of a multi-disciplinary treatment center for chronic pain that is linked to detoxification (from drugs but also from other toxins - food, water, energetic, emotional, etc...) and cultivation of health and well being." I have been hoping for such ventures for a very long time and indeed have made the attempt to do so myself. We almost had it with a MD working inside my clinic doing medical acupuncture (as certified through Berkely Med school). The problem occurred with the stupid insurance companies not only not allowing any help for the patients but in the state we were practicing charged the physician about 13,000 per year extra to cover her doing acupuncture as in that state it was classified for some really dumb reason as a "surgery technique! IN the end after 2 years, even though we were extremely successful as a pain clinic/integrated Western-Eastern approach, financially, due to us not turning down folks that had no money, the cost of insurance made it so impossible to continue. But I do commend you for thinking or planning this and surely hope you have success in such a venture. IMO this is so drastically needed now. Also I have taught at 2 university medical schools and one research hospital but none there including researchers, staff, nor students, despite intense efforts on my part of volunteering my time, were really interested in implementing any type of research or continuous program other than a survey type course in medical qigong that I taught for several years to both 4th year med students and in another hospital program the same survey type course to nurse practitioners. I guess I just never found the right person that was interested in implementing such. I do at this point believe, as Kempomaster mentions, that it would take a benevolent benefactor to pay for any intense research into efficacy of various medical qigong applications. I also volunteer my time for any such valid study any researcher wishes to implement although I don't have the funds to pay for my travel expenses. I think Kempomaster would be better for this as I live in an extreme rural area of the country and he is more centered in a larger populated area. I have spoken to many university researchers and have as of yet not received any positive response to do any study. One such proposed study, and I certainly do not have any statistical background to work out any details, but I have always thought for a study in bone healing efficacy that includes both pain relief from initial trauma and statistical average of time line regrowth (don't know proper way to phrase this), range of motion, etc versus control group. Also migraine headaches, arthritis, or general back pain. Another would be TMJ syndrome - man is this one a hot potato as the existing treatments for many have very little efficacy; I have always had results with this with medical qigong and Taoist medicine therapeutic application. There are really so many avenues that would benefit from efficacy research. Hope it happens one day. It is a frustrating thing, but we have made many inroads and I personally will keep trying until I die. Thanks you for having the openness to consider these complementary therapeutics in order to help others. Keep up the good work.

Hi Mark, I can assure you that it is a most difficult thing educating people about things like this that work. I can also say that I believe it is worth facing these difficulties and encourage you to put forth the time & effort to do so because I sincerely believe that these type of techniques and understanding are most important in today's society.

I no longer support this thread It was wiped out by those that wish to throw insults and derail from topic This was posted on another thread. Re-posted here for it's own topic. Pain certainly can be the "real issue", not due to the pain itself but due to the cause of the pain. We should listen instead of ignore. "...instead, try to devote more of their time and money towards alleviating the mental and physical anguish of those who are really in 'pain'" Absolutely; lots of people out there in pain. I have never been impressed with pain management techniques. Most of the time these are drug oriented and the drugs have side effects. Pain elimination techniques - much better. Pain can be a wake up call and motivate us to do drastic things that we wouldn't have possibly done without the pain. Amazingly and profound, sometimes. Pain can also be an unrelenting hinder to a person's life and their Spirituality. That constant thing that prevents many people from going deeper into themselves. It is indeed profound to see the change that happens in these people when the pain is eliminated. I know I have seen both of these circumstances personally (due to 2 car wrecks and two falls and hard living) and professionally over the 35 years with working in-clinic with people in intense pain. The key, from the standpoint of someone trying to help others, is to learn to recognize which is happening. Root cause = much more important than the pain itself. This is one of the very reasons to practice high level medicine instead of lower level. Forms of Chinese Medicine: Low level - Physical Mid level - Physical & mental High Level - Goal of helping a person find & fulfill their destiny (that which they themselves choose)

I think that is a pretty good explanation. I learned the words as push-grab. But my understanding is this "push grab" technique evolved to include manipulative therapy. Perhaps it was just a convenience to have a category to put such techniques under. There was this one doctor in the Tui Na department of the Baoding TCM hospital who was a Tui Na specialist and he had a technique involving having his assistant hold the patient's arms while he held their legs. They then lifted the patient off the table and the doctor introduced a sine wave like snap that went all the way through the patient's body. DANG! The patients felt much better afterwards. You could hear every single vertebrae align as the wave traveled up the patient's body.

keyword: Ya Mu does not want, desire or need your diagnosis nor treatment based on your mental projections of the way you think things are. You didn't like my answers to your questions and since then have constantly been after me with your same nonsense of attempting to diagnose me and tell me my problems utilizing your version of twisted psychology. I have already kindly asked you about 20 times now to cease this. Again, your diagnosis nor treatment is not wanted or needed by me. Why can't you get that through your head? I would say go practice on your dog but would feel guilty about the dog at making such a suggestion. I already know I am not a perfect person, nor have I met one in my years here on this Earth, which most likely number about twice yours. So get used to it as you will most probably never meet one during the 2nd part of your life either. I do make one exception with that statement as there was one person I have met who did approach this.

HA HA! Well, I like you too! I was only referring to the three people who posted originally.

And you still don't seem to understand that what I was referring to was your insistence on diagnosing, telling a person what is wrong with them, then giving unsolicited advice on how to treat the "perceived in your own mind" problem. Especially when there is no problem and it is some type of twisted thing you come up with in your own mind. Unsolicited diagnosis and treatment suggestions is unprofessional in any medical field and is certainly not appropriate on a forum, whether you are a licensed professional or not. From the mods answer to you, they felt the same way. You just have no right to do that unless you are a licensed professional and a person comes to you in private. And then you should keep it private. This is not "Oh I just want to help", it is something that certainly borders on practicing medicine without a license. It is also a thing which could be dangerous to a person with little life experience or who has genuine psychological problems that actually takes your ill-informed, made up in your own head, advice. And what you are practicing has no bearing on anything but what you apparently self admitted to making up in your own mind based on theories of psychology. The correct buzzwords but no real education in psychology doesn't give you the right to do this. If I am wrong about that fact and you are indeed a professional psychologist, then you should be reported to your professional association as someone coming on forums and giving out unsolicited psychological advice. And to clear up something else you said: Please do not post any more twists or lies here about what was said as this was not what I said. I said that, from a (simplistic) energetic viewpoint, all I did was reflect back to him what he was projecting to me. This is not "energetically led the discussion so that Twinner would behave properly". And I only told you that because you kept on and on and on and on asking me about it in an attempt to derail the thread and add insults. Did I learn a lesson? One that I have learned over and over but admittedly do seem to forget; don't answer questions from disrespectful people that are only attempting to get ammunition for an argument. And for the record, I have NEVER EVER attempted any energy manipulation on ANYONE on this forum for any reason whatsoever. If they privately asked for my help would be the only reason I would consider doing so. I don't ask anything from anyone here but what is generally referred to as common courtesy; and I do give anyone else here the same thing if they show it. You have already said yourself that you, instead of extending this common courtesy, prefer to challenge people so as to make judgments about them, as that is a part of your made up "psychological system". Why not consider approaching others with respect and see if they don't respond to you in the same manner? To clear the air here about something else said, once on the other thread twinner referred to me running off a forum member. In the other thread he said "5ET". Now in this thread he has mentioned 5ET and I am not sure if he is still referring to me about "running him off". Twinner, I did not "run off" anyone, much less 5 ET, who I thought the forum was very lucky to have as a member. I also considered him then and still do, as an extremely knowledgeable friend. But yes, I have seen all of the personal insults that a few people here like to throw around giving several teachers here pause about posting at all and mostly removing themselves from the board or disgustedly leaving. Such a shame, really. -------------------------------------- In general This board has such great potential but receives constant setbacks from the personal insults. Many times these insults are veiled by very smart people so that, under forum rules, they are not considered personal insults but nonetheless are as they are usually personal and the person receiving them is insulted. This would not happen if we all simply spoke to each other like we would standing in person speaking. Respect to others is not something that should have to be earned but something that should be a common ground for everyone to use so as to explore the deep mysteries without the type of thing reflected in this thread happening. It is also my understanding that to constantly attempt to derail a thread is against forum rules, and of course a mod would have to be the one to say if that is true or not. WHY NOT allow a thread to maintain continuity without the constant interruptions? Again, this would be simple common courtesy.

Yeah, it is difficult for me to see why anyone wishes to hurt. Pain often goes far beyond just "hurting" to the point that it totally disrupts people's lives and can cause extraordinary amounts of suffering.

And so you continue while saying you are not. Funny.

Did you bring some of this clean air? Good for you.

Again, if you actually wished to know how to edit your own threads you would ask someone instead of accusing me of something that isn't true. It really is easy, and if you asked in a nice manner I am sure someone would explain to you how to do it. Your other comments are simply an extension of your behavior in another thread and have noting to do with my comments and everything to do with continued behavior and personal dislike for me. I did ask you kindly to stop your personal character attacks and insults. I also did ask you kindly in the other thread to quit intentionally taking it off topic with these continued personal character attacks and insults. I did say something not quite correct above. I said the mods had already answered your question in another thread. The answer was directed to owledge and not to you. It was only my understanding that it answered your question and I believe this is true, but the answer to which I am referring to the best of my knowledge was not directed personally to you. Did you see this answer? edit: And if you wish for this thread to be about a question to the mods keep it that without your personal attacks and I certainly will not attempt to derail your thread. If you keep up your personal attacks I will then choose to say something or not. I do admit that this re-hashing has already gotten quite old and it would certainly be refreshing if this forum continued with relative topic information without the personal attacks.

Glad to hear you don't bear grudges. Why you felt you had to add to inflammation in this thread does show a perceived continuance to hold a grudge. Why you actually did is beyond my guess but I don't particularly believe your explanation in the same way as you apparently don't believe mine. Have a good day!

Interesting indeed. These things are basic to anyone studying bodywork and while they could certainly be arrived at through independent study, most things have already been investigated. Humanity has been around a long time. This is the same as the osteopaths utilizing manipulation techniques from Chinese medicine and the chiropractors used techniques from the osteopaths. Yet it appears that many of the western practitioners think they invented manipulation. The Chinese were doing manipulation in advanced Tui Na techniques for a very long time.

Yes we certainly know that you folks do not personally like me. That is no reason to come on a forum with personal attacks. Just like you are doing here. CT - We already know you got pissed off at me in another thread where you added personal insults so you wanted to take another shot at me here. Bang! Twinner - You have repeatedly made personal attacks against me because you too don't like me. If your desire here starting this thread to the mods was only wanting an answer to a question it would not contain your words of personal character attack. So we do know your intentions here, which wasn't really a question to the mods at all. You also came back on the pain thread and resumed your insults. When will this behavior stop? And if you wished to learn something you could be instructed on how to edit your own words. But it appears you would rather complain about someone else knowing such a simple thing saying it was special privilege. It is called extremely simple knowledge, not special privilege. If you read other threads you would have found your question already answered by a mod. Owledge - Stalking me, adding personal insults, and your perceived attempts to practice medicine without a license is what got you in trouble to start with. How about ceasing your personal attacks here and how about ceasing your ill-informed attempts to diagnose and treat mental problems which don't exist in the first place but are a creation of your own mind. Everyone of this forum has a choice between this type of unsociable behavior shown here in this thread or actually contributing to the forum. Just think how great a forum it could be if it was useful information rather than personal attacks here.

Please stay on topic of pain. And please quit your personal insults. No one wishes to come on a thread and read deliberate attempts to add personal insults, attack a person's character, and to derail a thread because you have a previous personal dislike for someone. If you wish to post on the thread try speaking on-topic and not behaving like a person who would much rather insult someone else than post about a topic. And please try to address the topic of the thread which is Pain. Your continued attempts to take the thread off-topic through character attacks are annoying to the group as a whole and, to my understanding, is against forum rules. Many of us wish to seriously address these issues of Pain, a subject where not much is really known. And, instead of complaining about not knowing how to edit your own posts I do believe if you simply asked someone they would gladly inform you.

Yes, this is similar to what I see with this particular issue. My point is really that these things are so deeply involved with everything else that to attempt a direct association, while possibly true on the surface, ignores the many other interactions and possibilities. For a therapist this direct association "knowledge" is kinda like walking down the road with blinders on, like a harnessed horse. Always best for a therapist to approach with no preconceived ideas leaving them open to finding and helping with the real issue and not just attempting to help a part of the whole.

I have heard this story over and over and have also personally experienced frustration with western medicine and pain knowledge.

Yes, absolutely it could manifest as intense physical pain. In many and unpredictable ways. I have seen this many times in clinic. Same thing with a physical injury. It can manifest in many unpredictable ways. I have also seen this many times in clinic. One curious thing I have seen is that people receive physical or emotional injuries as a child or teen and no symptoms manifest until age 30 or so. No, one can not tell exactly when this will occur. But time after time I have been working on someone who, when interviewed said they had no injuries as a child or teen. Then, as I am working on them BAM, memory comes back to the event of injury. Or I will start working on them and ask them when they injured one of the ankles where I palpate an old injury. And they will say they haven't. But when I release the stagnation of energy then all of a sudden "Oh yes, I DO remember injuring that ankle when I fell out of a tree when I was 7 years old" or some other specific. Yes I think that "splitting hairs" will not manifest any particular truth about this. No, I have not seen in clinic that specific emotions manifest in specific areas of the body. While I don't discount the old "liver anger" association, quite frankly I have seen this manifest in so dang many ways that the only thing I can definitely tell you is that one can not predict this. Better to not have any preconceived idea of a client or patient before working on them. See my preconceived notions versus Tao post in my blog.

Hi Mark, The sleeping qigong we do is simply an extension of the sitting and standing neigong. It wouldn't and couldn't be a stand alone qigong. It helps re-energize the body while we sleep and eventually leads to our dreaming neigong. Everything we do, including the therapeutics, is derived from the Stillness-Movement neigong. Nothing we do would have any validity without it.

Other work on tripper point therapy: Dr Janet Travell was famous for her work in this area and indeed her work is utilized in many PT clinics. I studied this work back in the 80's and found it interesting. But trigger points and acupressure acupoints are not a one-to-one ratio. To simplify this, one is based more on inflamed muscle nodules inside a muscle band and associated radiated pain and the other more on the movement of Qi. Dr Travell co-authored the book Myofascial Pain and Dysfunction. The Trigger Point Manual. I used to have a copy and IMO this was a good work. And many TCM hospitals do utilize acupressure alongside acupuncture, Tui Na (Chinese massage and manipulation methods), herbs (not only herbs, over 5,000 ingredients in pharmacopia ) and medical qigong. Other hospitals have full western medicine departments and all of the other methods listed. We do utilize this muscle "trigger point" concept as well as dermatomes inside medical qigong therapy.

We are not advocating anyone to go to a medical qigong therapist if they are gunshot. I certainly wouldn't until AFTER I had visited the medical doctor. Of course that would be an extremely ill-informed thing to do and I honestly don't think anyone ever would. But what you are missing is "what happens after the person has been to the doctor?" The person has to have some pain relief as this is an extremely traumatic injury. Their choice is to take drugs, which in my opinion is the appropriate thing to do for the initial trauma. But what happens if the person shot continues to have pain? Should they continue to take drugs for the pain? This can lead to addiction and in many cases has. These drugs are also toxic in the long term - just read what the pharmacy says about them. Also, the person probably would not be able in most cases to resume work - difficult to function walking around drugged. Also it appears you are making the same assumption that many do make. And I do realize it is an honest assumption. And that is that we are anti-western medicine. This is far from the truth. This is "complementary therapy" - not "alternative therapy". We work WITH physicians and get referrals from physicians and have physicians come to us for therapy. The physicians themselves recognize the danger of long term pain meds. We advocate taking the best of world medicine and integrating it into a workable system. And while I am not attempting to pick your argument apart as it represents a valid viewpoint, I will point out that only a portion of the population that actually needs long-term use of these type of drugs are able to continue to function with "normal" lives. Often what happens is higher and higher doses are needed, stronger & stronger meds are needed; a vicious cycle indeed and one that leads to a most definite non-normal life. But I too advocate that meds which are needed be available. Due to abuse it has gotten to be an extremely difficult process.

You have some good points. The reliability is taken care of, at least in what we train in and practice: I offered for 35 years GUARANTEED pain relief or no fee. It always was totally understood before hand that this was up to the client to decide if it was true NOT from my assessment. While I can't require any of the students that train with me to offer this same thing many of them do. And why can any of us get by with that? Because it does have the repeat-ability efficacy. Otherwise I would have gone broke. Accessibility. This is one of those chicken and egg things. It will never be due to the facts that Mokona brought up. Until enough students learn and apply this and take it to the next level it will always be not as widely distributed thing. Unless a benevolent benefactor came in and donated the millions required to initiate training centers in every state, it is always going to be up to the few who do put in the time & effort to do this. And right now those are few compared to the overall population. Although many states now have multiple practitioners who are available to the public. Take Indiana for example. I know of 3 practitioners available to the public in Indianapolis. Or Missouri - 4. Or Illinois - 3, and several other states which also have practitioners. But yeah,it certainly has a long way to go. And as far as schools even right now it is similar accessibility as to many other different specialties in other fields of study. For instance if massage therapists want to learn specialty techniques they have to go where those specialty techniques are. To ask the teachers of those techniques to open a school in a "city where you live" is a bit far fetched as it will most probably never happen. Of course any massage therapist as in our example who wanted to actually put in the time & effort could contact the teachers of any specialty technique and try to set up such in their particular city. NQA: Unfortunately, I do agree with you on your comment on forms of qigong. If the form is just calisthenics or even just geared at minor energy circulation and was not specifically used in a medical qigong system, it most probably will never get a practitioner to the point of being able to perform medical qigong; they will also not have any medical qigong training. And of course so many people seem to not realize that qigong and medical qigong are two totally separate things. In other words, no amount of study of just qigong alone will train a person in medical qigong as medical qigong is a different thing by its very definition of utilizing the term "medical". This is clinic & hospital based therapeutics (and yes the term has been bastardized in some instances.) Which is analogous to a western MD getting a residency in another specialty but not in brain surgery then stepping in and saying that they can do brain surgery because they have the basic requirements to practice medicine. Here are the NQA requirements that I posted in another thread: The first program, Clinical Practitioner, requires generally a 3 year period. The 2nd one posted here, the Level IV Teacher, requires far more than 10 years of study as it requires 10 years of teaching instructors and clinical practitioners. from www.nqa.org: "Clinical Practitioner This describes the person who practices applications of healing qigong with emission and projection of qi and may also teach prescriptive exercises. This level has the ability to generate qi, absorb qi from the atmosphere, and have trained their qi. They have built a strong energetic foundation through disciplined practice of qigong and possess an understanding of healing principles at least 500 hours documented formal Qigong training includes at least 350 didactic hours (see website for description) 200 of which are specific to Qigong includes at least 100 hours of qigong treatment which may include contact and non-contact qi emission, adjunct massage manipulations, and teaching of prescriptive exercises or any combination thereof. at least 2 years clinical experience must carry a current liability insurance policy Level IV Teacher: The Highest Certification Level Granted by the National Qigong Association. While not necessarily the clinician, the Teacher has at least 1000 hours of training and demonstrates a level of knowledge and understanding deeper than Level III. The Teacher should be able to generate qi, absorb qi from the atmosphere, has trained his/her qi. The Teacher has built a strong energetic foundation through disciplined practice of qigong and possesses an understanding of healing principles. This is the top internal certification/recognition of the organization and denotes wisdom, insight, qi transmission, and empowering. These senior practitioners have taught instructors of qigong or qigong clinical therapists for 10 years or more. They act as mentors for others in the field and are acknowledged senior practitioners by the NQA. This level is recognized to teach all levels of formal instruction. At least 1000 hours of documented formal instruction in qigong and at least 10 years of qigong teaching and passage of an interview process is required. These interviews could take place at the annual NQA conference and needs to include at least three members of the Application Review Committee. at least 1000 hours documented formal Qigong training at least 10 years Qigong experience teaching teachers. must sit an interview with members of the Application Review Committee A student of a level IV teacher has the option of, in lieu of listing course information from that teacher in the application, substituting a strong letter of recommendation from a Level IV NQA Certified Teacher that includes the number of hours of relevant instruction, general description of coursework, and descriptive comments about student ability." Now is this enough to insure that a practitioner is going to have results? Not really, in the same manner that all MD's who graduate are competent because they have degrees. It wouldn't be true. But what it DOES do is show the public that a person has indeed received training. And believe me, they are VERY strict with this and have a dedicated committee that review every single application and definitely makes inquiries as to all detail (HA HA, ask Kempomaster what sort of scrutiny he went through to get his certification).

Damn if you didn't do it again! I did ask you kindly to stop. You have not. You have been reported to the mods by me and others. You are not "hurting me" but utilizing some crazy thing you made up in your mind that you have the power to psychoanalyze people and make ill-informed, non-professional, psychotic, and may I add really stupid suggestions to them. I also ask the mods to remove your posts as you keep coming into threads and stalking me. I also strongly suggest you never do this weird "analysis with suggestions" on other members of this forum as well. I do think that if anyone desired your non-professional services they would inquire to you.