Ya Mu

You are STILL DOING IT! Please STOP!!! And please delete the above two posts. This type of non-professional psychoanalysis you are doing is both insulting, and if taken as "informed advice" by others, dangerous. CEASE YOUR STALKING!

Owledge, I would ask you to please not use such words directly to me indicated you have knowledge which you don't have of my thinking, or mind process, or anything whatsoever related. I have not "inflicted pain on myself" and you do not understand what you think you understand. PLEASE stick to the thread topic and do not stalk me here.

One thing that was initiated by the same organization that certifies acupuncture, the NCCAOM, was initiating a certification is Asian Bodywork Therapy (Dipl.(ABT), NCCAOM) which included medical qigong. This was many years ago. I was one of the first to get certified in Asian Bodywork Therapy by this organization. Unfortunately, if one were to ask the public, or heck, even here on this forum, which IMO SHOULD represent a more informed aspect of the population, what a Dipl.NCCAOM(ABT) is, most would have no clue. My point is that, to the general population, these things mean nothing. I think the NQA (NQA.ORG) will be the certification agency if medical qigong laws are initiated as their certification program is now quite thorough. But Mokona brought up a good point: First, people have to be willing to study this and then willing to go out to the clinics and do it. Students willing to really study this are difficult to find. Most are unwilling to put in the time and effort. Also, just look on this forum, which IMO again SHOULD represent a more informed aspect of the population, and you will see far more interest in semen and ejaculation (not that there is anything wrong with understanding such) than in learning medical qigong to help others and you will see only a handful of medical qigong practitioners. I think quite possibly this is just waiting for a consciousness shift, and it is my belief that will occur and that one day, medical qigong WILL be future's medicine. It is simply too powerful to ignore. We can have Future's Medicine Today for those willing to put in the time & effort.

I think the physicians are caught in the middle between a rock & a hard place with the pain meds. I have talked with many about this subject as well. Like you say, danged if they do and danged if they don't. And once someone is hooked on some of these it is extremely difficult to get off them. Really I don't know how I could have tried much harder than I have over the last 30 years or so to get this message across. I have been on TV where I did a live unrehearsed session on a medical student with a stomach problem who had been hospitalized and through the mill of every specialist with no results and the Taoist treatment made their pain go away live on TV - not what I said but what they said. One would think this would have made some type of impact but really I don't think it did. I have taught at 2 different medical schools exposing many 4th year med students to this and one would think that it would have made a bit of difference. I don't think it really did - they graduated then went right on into the western medicine mill. I have taught thousands of students. One would think these people would take this stuff and run with it and indeed many have. But the ratio of people who learn a bit of this and those who complete the study and will go ahead and open medical qigong clinics is - well, I can't complain but it certainly would be a great thing if the ratio were higher. Others & I have dedicated our whole lives to this and one would think that by now more people would be aware but... I guess in general way more people ARE aware. If we look at the membership of the NQA we will see that the numbers have increased significantly. I have students all over the world learning this and already achieving great results so I guess my bitchin above isn't such a great thing. I just wish more people would be aware of how amazing medical qigong and Taoist medicine is and the degree of efficacy it offers and I wish more would learn it to help humanity. This is desperately needed in today's society, especially with the increase of toxic meds and the cost of western medicine bankrupting people.

Oh, I agree. That was why I said if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck and not some esoteric reason. Can't tell you the number of people who came into the clinic with stuff that will roll your eyes like "I hurt really bad down my arm and I think it is because my heart chakra is opening". I do try to keep a straight face then go right to the area neurologically effecting their problem (nerve problem - not "heart chakra problem") and balance it out. If I can get time to finish the post I started above you will see that there always is a logical reason for the pain and indeed is one of the points of the post. Materialistic is fine. Another way to think of it is you can't separate the totality of a person into bits and pieces because all those bits & pieces function together. This is simply trying to achieve homeostasis.

Why is the Pain there is one of the most misunderstood aspects of dealing with pain. There are several schools of thought out there. Western medicine mostly attempts to deal with acute situations or organ disease. When pain becomes long-term likely as not far too many pain patients get labeled as crazy, nut-cases. The complementary therapy approach is very diverse. There are those that believe everything comes from a mental/emotional problem. There are those that believe it always comes from the physical. And then there are those that believe it always boils back down to the Spiritual. What I have seen is that none of these approaches even comes close to the totality. What many therapist miss when dealing with pain is that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck; most probably it is a duck. Attempting to classify the source as either pure mental, pure physical or pure Spiritual is missing the boat, as usually there are components of each and it really doesn't matter which it is as long as we can get to the source and bring balance. The problem now becomes not Why is the pain there? but How does the therapist find the pain source? In the Chinese medicine I teach, we learn palpation first thing. This is an almost lost art in western medicine. Why is baffling because it used to be a main part of physician training. No baffling as to how it came about but baffling to think it was no longer useful. And of course it came about because of modern technology like x-rays, Ct scan, magnetic scans, etc. The Chinese medicine we practice utilizes an approach called Listening. As I mentioned, the art of palpation is the first step. Many things can be learned about the body through simple palpation. First is physical, then electrical, then energetic. The problem with this, if one wishes to call it a "problem", is that these skills require practicing the energetic arts to build the practitioners energy body though a process. This of course means that before we can get to answering our basic question of How does the therapist find the pain source? we have to practice the energetic method for a period of time concurrently practicing the physical palpation. In our method of course the energetic method is the Stillness-Movement practice. The reason the energetics are necessary is complex but if one wishes to attempt to boil it down, one way of putting it that it is extremely difficult to find a problem on the level of the problem. It is like two bulls butting heads. Will continue this explanation of "How to find the problem?" later as it is 6:30 and I have to leave to go to work on finding a problem. to be continued

agree, it is just an expression, a local saying I grew up with

Thank you. Good Point!

Well Aaron, you have a nice life too! I only said you were ignorant about medical qigong, as in you hadn't studied it. Just like I am ignorant in the subject "chemistry" as in I haven't studied it. It would be entirely ignorant and uninformed for me to post about chemistry as if I knew about it. I think you are most probably a very smart person. Me, I am usually dumb as a 9 year old boy in Sunday School that wants to get out of church to go fishin.

Joeblast, you make an excellent point about the practices. My personal experience is almost the same as yours. I broke my jaws in 17 places, have torn both rotator cuffs, broken both arms, and have no as in zero cartilage in multiple places in my spine including the Tempo-mandibular joints. If I get lazy about either my physical exercises or my qigong exercises I get into trouble fast. Just doesn't pay not to do them. I think everyone who has pain should look at all avenues that can help and these exercises are certainly a place to thoroughly investigate. I do, though, disagree with the common western physical therapy exercise approach to new injuries. From my experience there should be some recovery before getting into the intense type exercise I have seen many go through with many types of programs. I had a call from a lady last week who had injured her shoulder and went to the doctor who prescribed the PT. This lady told me after going to the PT clinic she was left with a totally frozen shoulder that was going on 2 weeks duration and asked me to do a session for her. Yeah, even though I am retired from this I do often get talked into doing a session. I told her I would but would she first try this guy who is one of my new students to see if he could help her as he was located in the same town. He has never done this before and I do think he was nervous about trying to help her with only medical qigong. This story ends with her calling me the evening she went to him and saying her shoulder mysteriously became unfrozen with his session. Of course this was placebo effect and no way any new person doing medical qigong could have made this much difference (auuuum where are the devil horns emoticon). We discussed her following up with the physical exercises, which she already knew to do.

Hiya Creation. You may want to PM Mark for that.

Oh yes, this has been my experience as well. In my students as well as myself I have not seen any difference in outcome from those that practiced full lotus, half lotus, seiza, crossed leg, or even in a chair as long as they didn't sit all the way back in the chair as this does dampen the response in our system.

I still wish you the very best. Can do no more.

I assure you it was serious and not passive-aggressiveness. I was/am alarmed of your use of those terms. Didn't really pick up on it until today while re-reading the posts; sometimes I am as dense as anyone else. Still wish you the best and hope that healing always comes your way whenever your higher-level self needs it for your journey. My apology was/is sincere.

You are constantly using specific terms here that has me a bit alarmed. Due to your attempts to belittle me with "psychology terms" that you appear to not quite understand the meaning of but like to use, I have to ask that if you are under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist please say so. It certainly appears that you have talked with quite a few of them. If this is the case I sincerely apologize to you for anything I may have said to cause your irritation. I do know that mental issues can be debilitating and I wish you the best. If this is not the case then - I also apologize for any irritation to you brought about by any contribution that the answers I gave to your questions had to bringing you to this state. And still wish you the best.

I think quite possibly any meditative practice can bring about this type of experience. I have seen it with many different forms of meditation. Stillness-Movement can certainly bring this about as well, but it isn't a main goal.

I think so as this is certainly a part of the Listening. ""humbleone" applied the practice I describe in "waking up and falling asleep" to discover an awareness of the place of his consciousness in the back of his head, and he found a recollection of a dream he had many years ago." Possibly similar to how we get into a state to start our sleeping qigong in Stillness-Movement.

answered in post #125

I do hesitate to post on your thread here. Hope my contribution doesn't bring about derailment. Your post is one of the more intelligent and heartfelt posts about pain that I have read on this board. I am posting because it is a subject I have dedicated my whole life to and I too think this is a subject that deserves a whole lot of attention and is ignored by society as a whole. But what I know is that individually it is not ignored and that so many people have these pains in their life bringing about not only the emotional & physical trauma, but loss of income either temporary or until they die. This can destroy a whole family structure. Understanding would be a grand thing. What I can tell you is that western medicine offers not much for people with pain. If it is an acute short-term pain, the drugs (physician prescribed drugs) are not a bad thing, as they can help a person through a rough time. But if it is a chronic long term pain, who in their right mind wishes to toxify their body and walk around in a stupor? No one I have seen except for drug addicts - which can be another side-effect from taking the pain drugs and can turn into a vicious cycle. What is a person to do? And, by the way, I do admire you for refusing the pain meds as you stuck to your convictions. Whenever I go to a dentist I always refuse the shots. I have the ability to utilize my chi to eliminate the pain so I have no need for them - that is up to a certain point. When this point is reached, although so far it hasn't happened, I am sure I will be screaming for the stupid shot. Several of the dental clinics have had bets going on the side that I would break down and ask for the shots. :lol: And from my experience I have seen that the complementary therapies can help immensely in this. They can help eliminate the pain at the source and, in the case of addiction, which extremely complicates the matter, help a person to break that vicious cycle. After working in my own pain clinic for quite some time I was offered a job as a consultant/therapist at a physical therapy clinic. We saw the worst of the worst of people with pain syndromes. Although sometimes the PT methods did assist, the result rate wasn't very high. Introducing the Chinese medicine methods in the clinic made the result rates go from around 17 percent to over 80 percent. But admittedly, that required me to perform 8 to 10 hours a day. And then go home and see 4 to 6 more people at my clinic. I did finally get too busy at my own clinic and concentrated my efforts there. My point is that no one person, no matter how good they are at this, can make the difference needed. What you say about understanding rings so true. With this understanding quite a bit of both pain and suffering could be eliminated, or at least immensely helped. This is one of the reasons I left the scientific field to help others and to teach others what I know of how to do therapies that get results for people with complex pain syndromes. Sorry for the long post. I am guilty of becoming very enthusiastic about this subject.

Aaron, you should quit making false claims - you started insulting me - I didn't insult you - and you damn well know it. Do we need to repost what was said? Changing the name of the thread was practical because it no longer was a thread about pain - only a very few posts were coming through about pain - they were all by people wanting to derail the thread so no continuity could be continued - after one post about pain there were far too many about pure bullshit - and you know this as well. I can edit anything I want in what I post and it isn't up to you to make judements of or to me about it - or childishly whine about it. It sounds like what happened here is you thought I had left the thread and had to get that final bullshit out of your mouth so as to "prove your superiority", and came back with an over-the-top post when I said something about it. No one forced your hand on this issue - you chose to post your nonsense. I was referring to the thread derailing where it seemed impossible to have any continuity due to people that kept on and on about nothing to do with the topic. Nothing was said about you. uh, "hissy fit"?, I am not even sure what that is, but since you came up with it perhaps it has meaning to you. Perhaps this is what you just had.

Why "Why can't we have an off topic discussion going on at the same time?" Because it is not an off topic discussion, it is pure trashy talk by people acting trashy. And as far you yourself are concerned, no one said anything bad to you about posting on any aspect of the subject you wanted to - as long as you didn't insult people. Just because you are so unwilling to research medical qigong is no reason to trash those that are educated about it.

Sorry, John told me to not feed the trolls as it makes them grow up to be not-nice people. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pain is one of the most misunderstood (as well evidenced by this thread) and major health topics that seem to always get pushed to the wayside for more in-vogue health topics like cancer, heart, etc. yet represents an all encompassing thing that can turn peoples lives upside down and haunt them until them die. I wish there were more therapists out there who really understood how to eliminate the source of pain but that will probably be some time from now before that happens. edit: Good info. I had posted the above while you were posting. Good post. I had posted the above while you were composing yours.

I posted this 2 times already but really think most did not see it due to all the nonsense. I will try a 3rd and final time, because to me this is alarming, and I would have thought others would recognize it as I do as sign that something is terribly wrong. Traditional western medicine cost of pain in the USA From the American Academy of Pain Medicine: "According to a recent Institute of Medicine Report: Relieving Pain in America: A Blueprint for Transforming Prevention, Care, Education, and Research, pain is a significant public health problem that costs society at least $560-$635 billion annually, an amount equal to about $2,000.00 for everyone living in the U.S" From the Mayday Fund referencing a NIH report: "A 1998 National Institutes of Health (NIH) report concluded that just the economic toll of chronic pain may be estimated at $100 billion a year in the United States. It has increased significantly since then" Osteoarthritis Pain abstract study From this website: http://onlinelibrary...tomisedMessage= "Total adjusted osteoarthritis-related costs for newly diagnosed patients were $6,811 annually" Now I did contrast this with an unfair comparison to pain therapy through medical qigong: Visit to a certified medical qigong therapist who offered Guaranteed Pain Relief or NO Fee: Only if pain relief, per the client,not the Therapist, occurred $30 in 1980's $45 in 1990's $75 in 2010 This was guaranteed, mind you, whereas the western medicine studies expenditures mentioned above offered no guarantees - at all. Interesting comparison of expenditure even though we have no apples to apples data. Conclusion: The public spends much money on pain relief and pain is a large problem. The public deserves techniques that actually work and it sure would be nice if healthcare of pain patients integrated the best of Western medicine and Eastern medicine. It would also be nice if more promotion occurred of preventive medicine including exercise (utilizing calisthenic, qigong, Tai Chi and other soft-style arts) & lifestyle, to help prevent these costs to so many.

And this shit is what I get for attempting to answer your questions. It is obvious that you weren't interested in any answers after I waste my time answering your non-topic question. Gee thanks. Such a great work of psychobabble and false direction (another common internet "debate technique"), attempting to throw your very own insults back to being my fault and attempting to psychoanalytically translate things I have said to your false and misleading interpretations of what you want to think I said and what you think the world is like. Neither the world nor I conform to your specifications and strange ideas. I have no need or want for your unsolicited ill-conceived advice as to how to do anything. Just as twinner didn't have need of that type of ignorant advice. zzzzz, not interesting One day you will learn that psychobabble, insults, & mis-direction will only get you so far in life. "Winning" a debate and insulting me seems like what you are most interested in here, instead of learning, which could help you a great deal. Please don't continue this line of insult that you are using. This COULD have been a really good thread. (All your post above is your ego talking. This smacks of arrogance. How old are you? Isn't it time for you to do your homework? Does your Mother know you are posting?) - Just kidding, because you could very well be a newly minted psychologist or perhaps just another newagey person. Or a high school kid. I have not hurled the same insults as you and you well know it. So cut the bullshit. ----------------- In general, I guess none is interested in talking about pain on this thread anymore... I know, I can start a new thread, put the real posts about pain by respectful and honest people on it and ask that this one be used to hurl insults at me and all the other bullshit... but then some people acting like people who no one would invite to their house would come on that thread and start up there so it probably wouldn't work.

I really hate to repeat myself as I have already answered most of this. Your insulting manner is a method of posting, quite common on TTB and other forums, where a passive aggressive/sometimes aggressive statement about "ego" is a classical "debate" method of ignoring the real issues and attempting to negatively put any particular poster on the defensive. It is usually used when the person doing it has nothing of value to add and wishes to attempt to belittle the person it is used on. Now you slightly do it again here with this post "Do you have a problem with that?" I am not interested in this type of stuff, am not here to debate and when it is a question, will only respond when asked in a respectful manner. You know, like if you were really talking to a person instead of having the internet as a buffer. And no, I don't wish to "debate" this. Go debate someone who cares about nonsense if that is what you want to do. I did ask you to attempt to get back to the topic. The only question you asked me in this post that I have not already answered, is this: "Many more people than one in a million doing it? And how could that be practically demonstrated in the first place?" Pretty easy. At my workshops and you will see every single person there, including total beginners, after only 3 days, able to get an average 80% to 100% result rate of eliminating pain utilizing medical qigong. Consistently. You asked. Now if you wish to argue about this go argue with someone that wants to argue. And, can we get back to the topic of Pain?