Ya Mu

Traditional western medicine cost of pain in the USA From the American Academy of Pain Medicine: "According to a recent Institute of Medicine Report: Relieving Pain in America: A Blueprint for Transforming Prevention, Care, Education, and Research, pain is a significant public health problem that costs society at least $560-$635 billion annually, an amount equal to about $2,000.00 for everyone living in the U.S" From the Mayday Fund referencing a NIH report: "A 1998 National Institutes of Health (NIH) report concluded that just the economic toll of chronic pain may be estimated at $100 billion a year in the United States. It has increased significantly since then" Osteoarthritis Pain abstract study From this website: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1533-2500.2012.00535.x/abstract;jsessionid=7D2863A75C64A6A6000BF81995E62B4F.d02t01?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage= "Total adjusted osteoarthritis-related costs for newly diagnosed patients were $6,811 annually" Visit to a certified medical qigong therapist who offered Guaranteed Pain Relief or NO Fee: Only if pain relief, per the client,not the Therapist, occurred $30 in 1980's $45 in 1990's $75 in 2010 This was guaranteed, mind you, whereas the western medicine studies expenditures mentioned above offered no guarantees - at all. Interesting comparison of expenditure even though we have no apples to apples data. Now, which was cheaper? The public spends much money on pain relief and pain is a large problem. The public deserves techniques that actually work.

I don't really know to what you are referring when you say I have said "horrible stuff", but I'm sure I'll find out. My disagreement has been about the insults she said in every post after I pissed him off with a strongly worded opinion about "pain is needed" and having a bit of fun with my view of a translation that I knew had nothing to do with what was really said by the writings attributed to a fictional single person, yet him taking it as gospel, just like Christians take King James version of Bible as the word of God yet the translations show oh-so-many mistakes and omissions. The aspect about pain can be philosophical. My view comes from both personal experienced pain, hospital training, and working in a pain clinic for a very long time. The insults about medical qigong has no philosophical components and were based on his being pissed off at me. Medical qigong itself is a straightforward medical system from the hospitals of China with a rich & vivid history of use in China and now a good half century history of use in other parts of the world including the USA; there was no philosophical component here. Dig? True Compassion, as I have already written, is actually far removed from sympathy. One requires action (no action and it is only a word), the other doesn't.

Got to admit, even though from a totally misinformed or rather uninformed viewpoint, this post doesn't contain quite the level of animosity your others showed. Trust you - not in a million years. You have never studied qigong or medical qigong yet have such a strong view; very funny. When you say show you the western medical science, are you referring to the same science that said, through the "scientific method" of double blind studies, that (gee so very many now I can't recall the number) multiple drugs were completely safe and had efficacy above the statistical norm, yet history of use PROVED them to be harmful (actually deadly in many instances) and many of them to have no efficacy at all? If so, then no. I am posting the following here for others, not for you, as I doubt you will go to the trouble of checking it out. But in reference to your last uninformed sentence, I would like to assist in providing a bit of edification. The first program, Clinical Practitioner, requires generally a 3 year period. The 2nd one posted here, the Level IV Teacher, requires far more than 10 years of study as it requires 10 years of teaching instructors and clinical practitioners. I am a level IV Teacher with this organization and am also officially certified in medical qigong through the Baoding Qigong Healing Hospital in China(PRC). from www.nqa.org: Clinical Practitioner This describes the person who practices applications of healing qigong with emission and projection of qi and may also teach prescriptive exercises. This level has the ability to generate qi, absorb qi from the atmosphere, and have trained their qi. They have built a strong energetic foundation through disciplined practice of qigong and possess an understanding of healing principles at least 500 hours documented formal Qigong training includes at least 350 didactic hours (see website for description) 200 of which are specific to Qigong includes at least 100 hours of qigong treatment which may include contact and non-contact qi emission, adjunct massage manipulations, and teaching of prescriptive exercises or any combination thereof. at least 2 years clinical experience must carry a current liability insurance policy Level IV Teacher: The Highest Certification Level Granted by the National Qigong Association. While not necessarily the clinician, the Teacher has at least 1000 hours of training and demonstrates a level of knowledge and understanding deeper than Level III. The Teacher should be able to generate qi, absorb qi from the atmosphere, has trained his/her qi. The Teacher has built a strong energetic foundation through disciplined practice of qigong and possesses an understanding of healing principles. This is the top internal certification/recognition of the organization and denotes wisdom, insight, qi transmission, and empowering. These senior practitioners have taught instructors of qigong or qigong clinical therapists for 10 years or more. They act as mentors for others in the field and are acknowledged senior practitioners by the NQA. This level is recognized to teach all levels of formal instruction. At least 1000 hours of documented formal instruction in qigong and at least 10 years of qigong teaching and passage of an interview process is required. These interviews could take place at the annual NQA conference and needs to include at least three members of the Application Review Committee. at least 1000 hours documented formal Qigong training at least 10 years Qigong experience teaching teachers. must sit an interview with members of the Application Review Committee A student of a level IV teacher has the option of, in lieu of listing course information from that teacher in the application, substituting a strong letter of recommendation from a Level IV NQA Certified Teacher that includes the number of hours of relevant instruction, general description of coursework, and descriptive comments about student ability. Aaron, I strongly suggest you actually learn about these things before you bad mouth them and say totally misleading and wrong information.

Yes, they would have to be pretty dumb but would surely find out it isn't "a pleasant surprise".

Again it show that you have not bothered to do a bit of research on the subject. Most people learn methods to get started in medical qigong in a matter of days. And proficiency within 3 years. Yes, it does require time&effort. So does anything else in life. No one asked you to study it for an extended period of time. What I asked was that you quit speaking ignorantly, ie, making incorrect trashy statements about something you admittedly know nothing about. You have vast resources at your disposal for learning about the efficacy of medical qigong. Books abound. Do you think all the people who have posted here on what it has done for them and all the case histories are lies? Do you think the posts made by myself, Dwai, Kempomaster, and others are just fabrications? Do you think all the medical qigong hospitals in China were there to perform "smoke & mirrors" and that the many people who were helped in them were lying? Do you think I would have a 35 year success at clinic utilizing medical qigong if it didn't work? Do you think all the people who had the successes were lying? If so, that is YOUR problem, not mine, and has no basis. Do you think all people are stupid and would continue to go to a clinic where nothing worked? Again, your problem; a bit of research would show you that it is a valid system. I have often pointed to Dr Ken Sancier's qigong database, but it does require a bit of time & effort to search and it sounds like you are too lazy to invest in that research before opening your mouth. "all I ask is that you don't cause entire species to go extinct for some miracle cure." Sounds like a good idea to me. Just like it is a good idea for someone who knows absolutely nothing about the subject to not attempt to trash a whole system & profession just because they like dark ages ideas like "pain is needed" instead of progression in awareness. The existing and failing system of medicine will fail regardless and there needs to be community based health care. Medical qigong could play a large role in that and I believe it will. Thanks for screwing up a whole thread with your ignorance and personal insults. Several people had posted some really good info about pain and now are probably scared off because of your continued attempts to trash a complete system and now want no part of it. If you came and said that you had studied medical qigong and it didn't work for you or that you had a problem and went for medical qigong sessions and they did nothing for you, then that would have some validity in that they were your experiences. But here you are trashing the profession of a whole group of people, several who post here on this board, all while self-admittedly knowing not one damn thing about it. These personal insults should stop. And yes, insulting my and many other's profession simply because you want to is a personal insult. Do some research.

Aaron this is such utter crap that it certainly doesn't need a line by line reply. Ignorance will get you nowhere. Will you answer this one: What type of qigong do you practice that you can't feel energy? Did you learn it from a book or a teacher? My bet is you have never even practiced it, but if you did it must have been calisthenics or you didn't practice very long. Wisdom in Tao Teh Ching? Some. You take something that was written when a completely different culture & dialect as well as character meaning was the norm, translate it from this different culture & character meanings, then send a non-practitioner to translate it to English. Doesn't this sound oh-so-much like the Christian bible? Yes, it is mostly a collection of ways of living but unless you were brought up in the culture when it was written, it is mostly meaningless. Not that the translations don't have some good sayings. Just as the bible has some good sayings. It is NOT A THIS IS THE DEFINITE TRUTH AND THE ONLY TRUTH bible. Oral teachings, which are passed during a cultural change so as the meaning is not distorted, are so much more accurate representations of ancient knowledge. But you wouldn't know that would you? Why? Because you have never studied anything but your bible. It was physically impossible for one person to have written due to the time frame. But that is what you thought, isn't it. I went through that phase of thinking this was the "real" Chinese stuff back a very long time ago. Meh. It is not what one reads that gives them understanding, it is what they experience. Something beyond your experience has been talked about and instead of attempting to learn from it you direct your nonsense at me because you don't like that fact? "If we never experienced pain it would be almost impossible for us to die of natural causes. This goes for physical and psychological pain. We'd end up getting murdered or having a horrible accident." Where in the world do you get this stuff? Very comical.

"I have been involved in many successful healings (hundreds and hundreds)" and I bet the only smoke & mirrors you used were sage or sandlewood where appropriate and the rear view mirror you looked in while backing up the vehicle while leaving after a successful session. Really, if people would only learn about these things we would have such a better world. Good post. I just want to say I really really like this: "An in tune person, listens to their bodys messages and responds well before it has to resort to pain to get their attention." Preventive medicine and Listening is the best choice.

Creation, Creation, Creation; you are really good at explaining this. Please continue.

."..lets just say I don't buy into what you're saying, not because I don't understand it, but because I do." Of course you don't. As in no clue whatsoever. IF you had even looked through books at the rich and vivid history of medical qigong and had read about it you STILL wouldn't understand it. This type of understanding does not come from reading a book but actually studying it. Now what you can do is actually research it, read about the rich & vivid history of use in hospitals in China, read abstracts from the scientific papers, read about its success in clinic, etc. Then you would know it is a valid aspect of Chinese Medicine - not "smoke & mirrors", which is total ignorance on your part to say. And, of course the belief that suffering is NEEDED is religious dogma. And IMO, a very sick part of that dogma. People do not have to suffer. I have uttered no passive aggressiveness - just responding to what you write, and I must say, it certainly would be nice if people (such as YOU) had a little more education about a subject before making such incredibly uninformed & outlandish statements as you have. This is my suggestion to you. Now if you want to cut the bullshit and get back to the subject, you did make a valid point about pain; it IS more difficult for people to treat pain in others without having experienced it, at least initially. Though with some experience this does fall to the wayside for those trained in medical qigong.

It appears that the water medical qigong method is common across many schools of medical qigong. We use ours a lot and with great results. One of the interesting ones is to watch a person with a severe cold change before your eyes after they have drunk the qi/intent enhanced water.

Aaron, I don't buy into religious dogma, but hey, that's just me; you are welcome to it. These aren't my ideas but the way Chinese Medical Qigong is taught. It is real and involves no smoke and mirrors. History of use has proven its efficacy and needs no defense from me. I am certainly not the only person in the USA who teaches about the 3 methods; if you want to hear about it from another high level practitioner take a class with Emfrem Korngold. But I certainly can see how someone who is stuck with religion, who knows not one single thing about medical qigong or high level Chinese Medicine, who thinks a person named Lao Tzu wrote collections of writings from different time periods that are at the very least (and in some translations so far from the original meaning as to be very hilarious) distorted through translation,; yes, I can certainly see the lens through which you view these things.

Here, let me do that for you, what makes nerves grow I started to answer, from a physiology viewpoint, "protein". But If yours is a serious question I will say, from an energetic viewpoint, we have seen in clinic regeneration of nerves with medical qigong. Nerves grow slowly but the process can be speed-ed up/enhanced by medical qigong. Good for you in not indulging in the "poor poor pitiful me" syndrome, which can only make matters worse and virtually eliminates or at the very least severely limits, due to negative feedback loop, potential as a person.

While no one's "bible" impresses me as much as that which is real, saying pain is NEEDED is pure nonsense (it doesn't make any kind of sense). Saying joy & suffering are the same thing makes the same kind of no-sense. "We prize calamities as our own body because it reminds us that we are alive." The thing is we don't have to have calamities to remind us we are alive. The key is to not indulge oneself in the outcome of any particular "calamity" and I do think that is what is being referred to in what you quoted. "...I would urge them to question why they feel the need to be free from suffering?..." So are you saying that people should go ahead and suffer from pain when they don't have to? If so, this also is nonsense and reeks of some type of religious dogma. Your last two paragraphs indicate to me that you don't understand about physical pain and have possibly had much emotional pain. It simply is not true that "Our emotional pain is every bit as real as our physical pain and cause infinitely more suffering, that's a fact" While it is true that emotional pain can be just as debilitating and real as physical pain and both have trauma as their source, it is not by any means true that emotional pain causes infinitely more suffering, and that statement is nowhere near "fact". I do understand that for you possibly emotional pain has been immensely more, but you obviously haven't been exposed to physical pain to the same extent. Someone who had only been exposed to physical pain of great extent and not emotional pain would make the reverse statement, and also be making a false statement. In the end, this distinguishing between the two is not needed on our part as Chinese medicine practitioners as we are not really concerned with either one; only helping a person achieve his/her Destiny. The side effects of alleviation is due to touching and manipulating the raw source of the trauma and it doesn't really matter if it is physical, emotional, or Spiritual (at least in the system I do) as high level practitioners effects encompass those of low level and mid level practitioners; but for those are still really side-effects. I would also argue that sympathy and compassion are two different things. We can have sympathy for a person without having true compassion. Most healers have learned true compassion and realize there is no room for sympathy if we are truly compassionate enough to do something about a person's problem. Someone can sit on the sidelines and mumble about being sympathetic to someone's pain but never try to learn how to do something about it; it is therefore only sympathy and not true compassion. Compassion requires action, sympathy does not. "Suffering is a very natural process and there is no need try and add existential qualities that don't exist, merely for the sake of sounding smart and mystical" Is that what you are doing here with what you wrote? Trying to sound smart and mystical? Who on this thread has added "existential qualities that don't exist"? And what are those "existential qualities that don't exist" except possibly for what you wrote about people needing to suffer?

Yes, the 1-10 scale used in clinics is actually not a bad way of learning to what extend someone has pain. We do that, and after each stage of a session ask the client how they feel. But even though it is subjective it is quite real, and when it is gone, that is quite real as well. As far as other people judging it's legitimacy, I guess this is something western medicine doctors do; if they don't find what is causing the pain, far too many of them then write off the patient as a drug seeker or nutcase. A sad situation, really. In our system palpation reveals the pain source. Balance out the disharmony at the source and the pain elimination is a side effect. In physical pain situations this almost always comes back to an injury. Many times this injury occurred in a person's distant past. For instance, in clinic I would be palpating a person and ask them something like "Did you have a fall when in your teens?" At first they may say no, as they don't remember. But as you work on them they all of a sudden remember and say something like "Yes, I do remember now. I fell off a horse when I was 13!"

Most definitely. This is why I used the word "can" as well. Some things just are, and pain can sometimes be one of those things. No "lesson" at all. If it looks like a horse, neighs like a horse, and rides like a horse more than likely it is a horse. People, especially those into any type of "esoterics", often attempt to read too much into any particular thing. It always is a joy to see people's faces light up when their long-term pain is removed. A burden lifted.

I am almost positive there is an interesting case history posted somewhere in this thread concerning this topic. The protocol would be physician first then Taoist medicine combined medical qigong for multiple sessions. Everyone is different so it would be difficult to list any type of specific methodologies other than the Taoist Medicine combined with medical qigong. Also, outcome is dependent on many factors including the fact that we are not treating any disease itself but attempting to help a person find and fulfill their Destiny. If the problem is due to something the person themselves chose as a life lesson it will remain. Also, some things are and cannot be changed. In other words the results can be amazingly remarkable to nothing at all happens with any particular problem. However, something is always addressed, even things that are hidden from the person themselves, but maybe not any one particular thing that the person had in their mind was the problem.

It is extremely difficult for those who have not experienced prolonged pain to have any idea of what it is like. It is also easy for those who have never seen or experienced medical qigong as well as other holistic methods to have big but clueless ideas. In general to some of the other comments: Yes, pain is an indicator that something is wrong. We shouldn't ignore it. Of course we go for the root cause; it is never eliminating the pain so that the cause is simply hidden. Except with terminal patients. Then simple pain relief can be a very big blessing. We have had good results with eliminating pain from phantom limbs. Although sometimes difficult to achieve full balance and in some cases these folks need prolonged therapy as in the pain can be removed but due to the imbalance may return at some point.

I know my own pain of many many years led me to the Chinese Medicine. I know that without this pain I just never would have sought out the medical qigong and be able to help people, and probably would have not even been interested in helping people. In this manner it was a great thing for me, a transformation from a total engineer techno-geek to a healer (uh, wait a minute, my wife tells me I am still a geek, as she sees a computer in little pieces in my workshop). But I also know if I had of simply "Listened" I would not have needed the pain as a motivator. Yes, pain can be a transforming experience, although I can certainly not recommend this route. As Seth said in his post about experiencing intense pain, the negatives can outweigh the positives. Thanks for telling your personal story about pain. I sincerely appreciate your bravery and attitude. When we assume the "victim" status it is SO much different and makes us SO much less than saying "Hey! Wait a minute! I will no longer play the victim!"

It is not just about posture. What can happen is that when a person begins a practice of qigong the qi can then attempt to remove the stagnations in the body. This can be really quick, as in an instant self bone manipulation or it can be a longer process. When the qi hits the stagnation it certainly can hurt worse as it is attempting to flow through. I imagine quite a few people start a practice then quit when this happens versus sticking it out and hopefully feeling better.

Nope; one can experience pain and not learn a thing from it. It CAN be a wake up call and it can also be a hindrance. Not NECESSARY. Many people do just fine without it. It certainly can be a motivating factor, if needed for any particular person at any particular time, but not necessarily necessary. "Getting it is a pleasant surprise," IF pain is in our lives we should attempt to learn from it and not use mental masturbation of indulgence as in "poor poor pitiful me..." If you really think "a pleasant surprise" of pain is such a good thing I have a hammer that does a really good job of giving one pain - don't ask me how I know - do you want to borrow it for your very own "pleasant surprise"? I was enlightened by it! (several cuss words which were bound to weigh something left my body).

One thing I would like to see is that if anyone who posts wishes to, it would be interesting to see if they personally were aware of/experienced physical pain and if so, was it short term or long term. If it was short term, how do you think the same pain long term would effect you if you had to simply attempt to deal with it? I do realize the majority here who are younger probably have only experienced temporary physical pain (if that) so it is difficult for those people to comprehend.

The Terre Haute workshop is full. Our next workshop is June 23,24,25. It will be announced soon.

"Forms of Chinese Medicine: Low level - Physical Mid level - Physical & mental High Level - Goal of helping a person find & fulfill their destiny (that which they themselves choose)" You are referring to mid-level treatment. Yes, many forms of Chinese medicine are geared at these issues. We do high level form of Chinese medicine. Pain elimination, mental balance etc is a side effect. A nice side effect, for so many, but still not the main goal of the session. As kempomaster says above, we see many issues resolved by the client when we do this type of session. Most times it is an amazing thing to behold. People sometimes think they came to see us for one reason, say a hurt elbow or something of that nature, but the session will generally reveal the deeper issues. And I would't actually say animals are easier to treat. Yes, they are much more fun than someone who only comes to see you so as to prove what you do doesn't work - well, maybe not as those are really fun when you watch them all of a sudden get the "wow" expression, but animals are not disbelieving and entrenched like humanity and do possess a certain admirable purity. But I have worked on animals that took lots of time & effort.

I thought perhaps this should have it's own thread. Re - posted on it's own thread, Pain. Pain certainly can be the "real issue", not due to the pain itself but due to the root cause of the pain. We should listen instead of ignore. "...instead, try to devote more of their time and money towards alleviating the mental and physical anguish of those who are really in 'pain'" Absolutely, lots of people out there in pain. I have never been impressed with pain management techniques. Most of the time these are drug oriented and the drugs have side effects. Why in the world would we wish to practice "pain management"? Only if there were no alternative. Pain elimination techniques - much better. Pain can be a wake up call and motivate us to do drastic things that we wouldn't have possibly done without the pain. Amazingly and profound, sometimes. Pain can also be an unrelenting hinder to a person's life and their Spirituality. That constant thing that prevents many people from going deeper into themselves. It is indeed profound to see the change that happens in these people when the pain is eliminated. I know I have seen both of these circumstances personally (due to 2 car wrecks and two falls and hard living) and over the 35 years with working in-clinic with people in intense pain. The key, from the standpoint of someone trying to help others, is to learn to recognize which is happening. Root cause = much more important than the pain itself. This is one of the very reasons to practice high level medicine instead of lower level. Forms of Chinese Medicine: Low level - Physical Mid level - Physical & mental High Level - Goal of helping a person find & fulfill their destiny (that which they themselves choose)

And a couple "other sides" of that coin: Does not every family need a "family healer"? I do believe most people can stay "on the side" busy helping their own family no matter what their profession. So if one is going to bother practicing qigong, why not help their own family? Other professionals; how about teaching the mailman to calm down the dogs anxious to eat them? How about teaching the counselor to manipulate the qi through voice techniques to help the people they counsel? How about teaching the surgeon to put healing intent & energy in the drip before surgery? How about teaching the policeman to calm down the agitated person about to commit a crime or murder? How about teaching the teacher to calm the agitated kids with their voice? How about... See the possibilities? I have taught all the above; Stillness-Movement isn't just about healers who wave their arms around. I do think it is a special calling to be a healer. What perhaps may surprise many here is that I have attempted to talk out of it every single person who has wanted to join my certification program - as in really trying to talk them out of it. I know if I can't then it is most likely for them.