Ya Mu

Just before I retired from clinic (or semi-retired as it seems I can't really get away from it) I analyzed, in a philosophical manner, the sum of what I had learned over the more than 35 year period. One of the things to which I came to the conclusion was that we are most definitely a product of our genetics. Yes, we can optimize our health through lifestyle changes which include nutritional changes but we will always have tendencies. Although I did find a high level method to re-program the DNA through energetics (demonstrated in the Gift of Tao movement video), I also learned that some things just are. No matter what we wish to believe, they just are. About the "spiritual " issue and meat. I know personally, having been a vegetarian for a long time and then going to eating meat, that my personal development didn't change one way or the other. Constant growth through the practice no matter what I ate. I have also gauged the development of my students, some of who are vegetarians and some who are not and see that it doesn't make one iota difference. People read stuff that someone made up then start believing it as gospel. Unfortunately then someone else writes the same thing just rewording what the other guy wrote. Then it becomes further "gospel". I was amazed at the quote posted in this thread by someone about what John Chang "got" about this subject when asked. It was EXACTLY what I have gotten in meditation. And I had never read the referenced book (I think this was before the book was published). And I don't offer this as "proof" to anyone out there but as conversation to you. I should add that I later asked my teacher about it and he said the same thing.

Now I know you didn't actually read the posts where I state that these type of solutions were tried. This is not a matter of people eating the wrong vegetables. Please re-read the posts. Eating meat is simply that; eating. I would suggest you don't read too much into it and simply do what works for you.

Hi Seth, I am not going to even answer your reply post to me about the vegetarianism on a detailed basis because you have so many things inaccurate that it will take way too much time to address them individually. Your assumptions are completely baseless and you didn't really address my points. You insist that your flawed analysis is correct because you BELIEVE it is. As an example of your flawed analysis: poison spray airplanes drop poison spray over your house and you call to lodge a complaint and find out the "board of discipline" consists of only poison spray applicators. Of course they "prove" to you that it isn't a problem. But you know it is. This is exactly the same as you using a group of vegetarians to "prove" you are correct. You also eat meat so appear to have no personal experience. I DO have personal experience but you don't THINK that has any bearing because you don't BELIEVE it does. You change what I say, ignore what I say, only respond to a portion of my points and make assumptions on what you THINK I say rather than what I actually say. The "studies" referred to are case histories which are exactly that. They are not and cannot be judged as wrong or flawed because they are simply what they are. How can one debate with that? If you want, see my post above for more info as to why you are dead wrong. I can see that you appear incapable of a rational debate on this and I can see that nothing can change your flawed opinion. But I would like to address this above, which of course you are always so adamant that I know I can't change your opinion about this either. You are obviously not a rancher or farmer to say the above. I am. Pasture management is complex, and animals can do much to improve the pastures. Have you never heard of rotational grazing? Have a great day!

I am not saying you are one of them but most of the replies to me on this thread have been emotional or know-it-all based on "air" criticism of me by the "veggie handshake crowd" simply because I posted some things to consider about this subject as well as my experience in it. When I saw Mokono's post that one can certainly tell the veggie group from the meat group by their posts, I thought of a group of people with their veggie tattoos shining brightly going around with certain righteous indignation in their hearts, more than willing to take their sticks and beat some sense into those slimy devil loving bambi killing dumbass low-spiritual meat eaters. To be honest, I abhor this type of thing but have seen it big time in life, not just on this board. Kinda stinks of religion, in a big way, to me. So forgive me if I came across as condescending to you. I do apologize. I sometimes forget that many have never been exposed to medical issues. I did post this already but I guess it did get hidden in the traffic. The biggest medical problem that I know of with SOME people who go on a vegetarian diet, certainly not all people and probably not the majority of people, is anemia. This is a known medical diagnosis. Many people who find themselves not doing well try various different natural vegetarian approaches to their problem, without success. Some of these approaches include whey protein, concentrated greens powders, etc. and do work for some percentage of people. Why do some people not do well with a strict veggie diet and others do just fine? I don't know. As far as I know there have been no scientific studies on this. But I say, based on observation, that double blind studies do not prove anything at all. If they did, would all the many drugs that were "proven" by science to be safe, the same drugs that ended up killing off many people and crippling others; would these drugs be harmful? No, they passed the double blind studies that "proved" them safe and effective. Note many proved to be ineffective as well. What I believe to be true, simply put, we are all different, different genetics, different stress situations and different environment. This would explain why a strict vegetarian diet works for some and not for others. The argument that these people who do not do well do not "do it right" is utter pure nonsense, as most who go this route attempt all known solutions to solve their problem. But really, my original argument here, was not about this, but about the fact that "spirituality" has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one eats meat or not, and I gave the reasons. I also argued that there are many other considerations to diet, many which may make more difference than if a person eats meat or not, and I gave my reasons for this as well. Out of all of the criticism I have received none has addressed those arguments. I was expecting a debate on those points instead of righteous indignation that I am a meat eater (self-admitted as barely) or that I dared say that some people did fine and others did not on a vegetarian diet. As to your comments about what the "sages" say you are getting into the area of belief systems. An example here is you say "the bible says" not to eat meat. Well, the bible says something to the effect that thou shall eat thy meat at night and thy bread in the morning. Here it is referring to simple food combinations, protein and carbs together do not digest as well as when eaten separately. I do know that spirituality is not defined by whether a person eats meat or not but by their actions and personal attunement. IMO anyone that says this is so is dumb as dirt.

Can someone be really spiritual if they are lacking basic health? A good question. I believe the answer would be yes, they can. But I also believe and know from personal and professional experience, that it certainly makes it truly much more difficult. This is one reason I devoted my life to helping others. I know that when one is in terrible or even just constant pain that focusing on any particular aspect of ourselves is extremely difficult. Most of our attention is taken up by that pain. If we can overcome that, and rise to the spiritual, then we have indeed accomplished a grand and difficult thing. I believe sometimes these are lessons that we ourselves choose but dang, why do we make it so difficult? When if we had of just listened to our Divine aspect we may indeed not have made those choices that led to that pain. I use pain as an example but believe this would apply with most any ill health. I avoid, to the best of my abilities, those GM grains, added sugar, and definitely don't combine carbs and protein when I can avoid it. Mostly avoid carbs except that I do enjoy a beer. Figure what the heck, gotta do what you like. We eat LOTS of fresh vegetables that we grow ourselves year round from mostly open pollinated seeds and without pesticides. Having some fresh carrots and cabbage today. Yum. I usually butcher a deer every year and eat small amounts of venison mostly during the winter as we have so much fresh vegetables in the spring and summer. Sometimes add pasture raised buffalo meat a few times a year. IF I lived on a coast somewhere I would eat fresh fish often as I love the taste of fish. Although extremely difficult to find fish these days without toxicity, especially mercury (gee thanks, power companies with your central coal powered generating stations). Try to avoid grocery stores as much as possible, but sometimes one has to do whatever they have to do to eat. So I scan the foods in the store when I go to attempt to get the better quality versus just picking up a sack of whatever is available. Eat lots of nuts like walnuts and fruits like bananas and grapefruit. Recipes? My wife has a Chinese vegetarian cookbook which is followed only partway as we do not use much oil in cooking. I am not that talented in cooking. But I do know how to lightly steam vegetables. So can't add any expertise on the cooking part, sorry. What works for me is not exactly what would work for everyone. Also, we are all going to die physically. I think paying too much attention, as in over-concern, to the physical does not contribute to the spiritual. So sometimes better to do what you like. I attempt to practice the middle path, even in eating.

This is a good point. I was under the impression that I had mentioned about 15 or 20 times so far in this thread that my position is that pasture raised beef (pig, goat, chicken or whatever one eats), raised on clean pastures (no chemicals applied), is much more healthy than the grain fed meat, much leaner, much higher in omega 3's, etc. But I certainly don't mind posting it again. I go to the grocery store, look in the ground meat section occasionally just to check the status of the local supply, and see gobs of sick qi boiling out of the meat. It is more prevalent in the ground meat but also present in a fair amount of the other. Yuc! Interesting that I do not see this same sick qi in venison that I prepare myself, once a year. And to be fair, I do not see it in most other pasture raised meat products IF they have been handled properly. Someone else posted a really good post about the pasture raised beef as well. I also brought up that those that that eat these same genetically altered grains are exposed to chemicals and I think that this grain is one of more-contributing to health problems of foods. Right up there with sugar (well, maybe not, as sugar is bad bad bad) and fatty meat. Yes, unless one raises the food themselves and knows what is in it, it is all questionable. Sucks, doesn't it?

Good points. I especially like the fact you mention of pastured raised being natural. Although I personally don't like to eat beef, pastured beef has been proven to contain more nutrients such as omega 3's, is much more lean, and is much better for a person than grain fed beef. And my opinion is that the distorted genetically modified grains that so many in the world love to eat, are extremely bad for one's health. So it would make sense that the grain fed beef would be as well.

Which Sutra teaches this specifically? That killing to eat meat sends someone to a Hell Rebirth?!! I used to be an AVID sport fisher and would eat the fish I caught. If this Sutra you reference really exists then I am going to HELL. For a Long Time. Have you read any of the sutra descriptions of Hell Realms? Seriously. I have read a few. They could give the Christians and Muslims a hard run for their money in descriptive horrible places to be reborn into. Seriously, I need to read it. I was under the impression Theravadins (who are NOT - I repeat - NOT Hinayana-ians ) will eat meat. Seriously... I coulda sworn I read somewhere where the Buddha himself criticized the Jains for taking the 'do not eat meat' as a precept to an extreme level - to the point it had actually turned into an obstacle to achieving Enlightenment.* In any case Precepts are meant as guidelines. Not hard and fast lines. Either you break the Precept given a set of circumstances or the Precept will break you. I think that's what Ya Mu was getting at. It is not unlike what I recall the Buddha talking about even though I know Ya Mu isn't all that intrigued with the Buddha or the Buddha's teachings. But the general idea is similar imo. I can't speak to the bit about the Dalai Lama flying into a rage. I find that rather odd. For it would imply that Daniel Ingram has achieved a higher level of Realization than the Dalai Lama and while that very well could be the case I do find it odd that other Lamas would elevate someone to be their leader who so obviously had not passed through to at least the level Ingram has achieved. *Yeah. Yeah. I know. The vast majority of Taobums believe there is no such thing as Enlightenment. I'm just referencing what I thought the Buddha said specifically. Dang I wish I could remember the name of that Sutra where he criticized the Jains for taking the 'no killing to eat' precept too far (I think it was the Jains...). You make some good points here. Not well known as I do emphasize the Taoist side of things, my Buddhist training comes from: Fu Wei Zhong, abbot of the Golden Summit Temple to Zhou Qian-Chuan to Wang Juemin to Ya Mu, in that order, these teachings are an inherent aspect of what I have been taught. Thanks! I am relaxed. Just don't like seeing nonsense.

I guess you too failed to read the whole thread. No condescending attitude. Just someone who has had a whole lot of experience in this subject. People who disagree with me love to throw such remarks in and are generally the type of people I posted about. And if you had of read what I wrote then you would know I personally do not like the taste of meat, except for fish and a small amount of venison. I am arguing for the part of the population of meat eaters that need to do so for their health. Because this part of the population is ignorantly put down as "non-spiritual" by a significant number of people. No one yet has addressed the fact that most vegetables that are eaten contain huge amounts of pesticides and are not really fresh so they hold little nutritional value, and the fact that these chemicals are bad for one's health. I argue for a person to grow their own food. Even apartment dwellers can grow a certain amount of their own food. I did propose the reason I thought this was true. Try reading the thread.

This subject appears to be something you don't understand. What I have been referring to the whole time is reposted to below: So if you wish to argue these points then go ahead. Your argument's above holds no water at all. You are using a community of vegetarians as proof. This is exactly like the pesticide industry regulating all the rules for clean water. You should know that. Also, you failed to address the fact that you criticized the Dalai Lama for eating meat that he needed for his health because SETH THINKS he knows more than this leader's personal physician while not actually knowing a damn thing about the details of his health situation. This is really rich, seth. I have to hand it to you for creativity. You also said I was lying. Calling these FACTS "Ya Mu's thoughts". This is not the case. They are facts. What you seem to fail to realize is that, if just one case of people who do not do well eating a vegetarian diet exists, then it is ignorant of you to say that all people can eat vegetarian without problems. I have over 250 documented case studies on this, so if you want to still call me a liar, that is your problem and not mine. Do you want to call mythmaker a liar as well? I have this feeling that he admitted it, even though he is a staunch vegetarian (which I do respect) based on actual experience; unlike you, who seems to make up his mind something is so, and that is the way it has to be. The truth is that, in your life experience, you simply have not been put in the situation where you have seen this inability to do well on a strict vegetarian diet. Just because it works well for you and your immediate circle doesn't mean it works for everyone, and again, your example of a group of vegetarians is just that - a group of vegetarians, and proves nothing at all. Why could you even think that I am the only one who has run across this? Many physicians would tell you the same thing. The over 250 cases I referred to were physician diagnosed cases of anemia, not diagnosed by Ya Mu. Not one of these cases were meat eaters and each one of them were fine before going an a vegetarian diet. Not all people can handle a vegetarian diet. Some need to eat meat. This is simply the way it is, regardless of any particular person's emotional defending of vegetarianism or belief. Edit: I re-read the posts and see that a part of your aggressiveness was due to that you thought a part of my first reply to you was directed at you. I usually answer a person, then in the next paragraph address the thread. But I can see in this case that I was not clear in that. I apologize for the mis-communication. So I edited my post to reflect this.

Correct - it is not about me. But is is about experience with vegetarianism. I do have that experience. And most of the responses that have been directed to me, including yours, were to the post I was referring back to.

So you admit to your big ego. Nothing to do with meat eating. I also write for the rights of people who need to eat meat, even though I personally do not like meat much. This is getting boring, though, as no one YET had addressed the list of considerations I originally posted.

I agreed with it because it was a well thought out post instead of emotional nonsense. What is difficult to understand about that?

LOL Seth, I know what you posted - I am not dumb. I was speaking to the overall thread after I posted my response to you. I am also not dumb as to the tactics you just utilized in your so called argument. And no, I am not an "overall authority". But guess what? NEITHER ARE YOU! Yes, clinical experience, which you apparently have none of, is very important. Your response is so typical of people who do not care for others to the point that you criticize the Dalai Lama for doing something HIS body needed AS DIRECTED BY HIS PHYSICIAN. Are you so full of yourself that you think you know better? My original argument, which was just posted again, was about the fact that eating meat does not make one less spiritual. This was why I mentioned it again. Also several other questions all of you veggie handshake people cannot seem to answer. By the way I had a friend who just visited the Queen. They became old friends. She talked a lot of stuff that went over my friends head. My friend didn't agree with her.

Wow! Finally a well thought out and accurate post instead of the emotion dribble I have seen so far. I think we would all be better off if we did this.

In case anyone missed it, I personally prefer a diet mostly consisting of fresh, cultivated by me because I am not too lazy to grow my own food, no pesticides added, vegetables. So my argument is about common sense, fact, experience, and regard for others instead of the intense fanaticism-without-real-thought look down upon anyone that needs meat in their diet expressed by so many in the world of vegetarianism. It is an "ism", alright. OP. In case all this crap expressed in this thread has given rise to any confusion, know that your original research was most likely correct. You may wish to give it a go but monitor how you feel. If you do not feel well after giving it a go, then consider a change and don't let emotionally charged nonsense posted on a forum influence you.

Yawn. So address this one example if you are not going to address all of them. "Deer herds that are not hunted and thinned become a huge problem. If it were not for the hunting and eating of deer then there would be extreme disease and over-competition for the natural food available and thus a huge die-off of the deer. This is a fact." You say "Some people have a difficult time at understanding compassion, sociopaths for example, but there is a whole array of people who do or do not feel enough compassion to avoid killing animals at various levels." So where does this put you if YOU allowed the deer population to die off because you don't want anyone "killing the poor animals"? Kill ALL of them or kill a few; which is more "spiritual" and more compassionate?

Nope, you simply don't have the clinical experience to recognize this as fact. I do. You simply have an opinion with no back up argument. I STILL haven't seen anyone of you guys so damn gungho here address the stuff I posted in my original post on this thread. Whatsamatter, no answers? You talk but say nothing. Guess who found out that eating meat had nothing to do with "spirituality"? http://www.dalailama.com/ Ask him if he does or does not NEED to eat meat. edit: Again, regardless of anyone's emotional response to this subject, some people do better eating meat. Some get by fine with being a vegetarian. Why is this so hard to understand and why is this such an emotional hotbutton to each of you? I am not telling anyone what to eat. Just pointing out that this is not a cut and dried subject. AND it is pure bullshit that a person who eats meat can't be "spiritual". "Oh, I feel so much lighter now that I have quit eating meat. I may just ascend to heaven." Yep, quite likely, for many people. Easy to get light headed when anemic.

chee

Yes, monsanto corp has no one's best interest in their heart. Only greed and power. And vegetarians eat that crap. Yuc. Search for a list of companies that corp owns. If one hasn't done so, they will be very surprised. Search for the seeds and companies they have bought up so as to rid the world of open-pollinated seeds.

I know to what you are referring and I really don't get offended by anything posted on a forum. Some people are assholes, some are ignorant, most think they know things that they really don't, and some actually do know a thing or two. Still disagree as I have clinically seen far too many people who absolutely can't have good health eating veggie only diet. You should see some of these people. White, pasty, run down, and when I ask them have they seen their doctor and asked the doctor were they anemic, they admit that the physician said they were. When I ask what they eat I get preached to about spiritual vegetarianism. Many of them, when they say they will not eat meat and I mention whey protein, go off on me about being vegan. Well, excuse the hell out of me for mentioning something that can help you. Bottom line is still some do good on veggie only diet and some don't. This has nothing to do with eating habits, social pressures, etc, but a physical thing; most probably everything to do with genetics and most definitely nothing at all to do with "spirituality". Some of you just don't get it because for you it works fine, therefore it should for everyone. Not the case, at all.

"Encouraged by national biofuel subsidies, nearly 40 percent of the corn grown in the United States now goes to make fuel." http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/science/earth/07cassava.html Let's see, Percentage of corn grown in the US eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the US eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of corn grown in the US for fuel: 40 Sometimes (read: all the time) we have to really wonder about all these statistics. That's 140% of the corn accounted for. Where is the other 19.298547623 percent? Yep, the pesticides utilized in farming is most definitely dangerous to one's health. If you don't grow your own vegetables you have no idea what is in them.

If the food is really organic. It was brought up in the "meat" thread, that unfortunately the label doesn't mean as much as it should. Preparation, freshness, etc means a lot as well. Sometimes one can find this when traveling but it is difficult to find food that is really organic, that is prepared by someone who loves what they do, and that wasn't hauled from across the country in a truck that had previously been hauling waste or some other toxic substance.

Personally. I do not like the taste of most meats (nothing to do with my morals). Venison sometimes. Fresh fish, I do, but seldom get the opportunity to have them. So I trudge along eating mostly home-grown vegetables that are not grown with pesticides. Poor me. Just kidding, I LOVE to eat those home grown vegetables. But when I am traveling - it really sucks when I have to eat those things others call vegetables - no life in them, can see and taste the chemicals - yuc.

Aaron, Your point about potato-chip vegetarians is good. The rest? Most probably you simply don't have the experience to know, either personally or clinically. You are wrong - there are quite a large number of people out there who do not do well with a strict vegetarian diet. This is a fact. This fact is not rendered null by yours and others argument that "people aren't doing it right". Yes, some people are not. But still, quite a large amount of the population do not do well with a strict vegetarian diet. No amount of emotional whining from anyone will change this fact. And again, it is outrageously funny that many of these same folks think "spirituality" can't be found if one eats meat. Pure hogwash, bullshit, irresponsible meandering or any other term that means nonsense. It was brought up that some people can't eat meat. The problems I have seen involve, for the largest part, combining protein and carbs. Also I pointed out the problems with eating mainstream meats. Fatty meat is not good for one's health. Again, pasture raised lean meat is much better. But so is vegetables that one grows oneself. And I haven't heard any comments regarding the energetic aspects of both these food types other that bullshit about eating meat makes one less "spiritual". I talked about alternatives because he was concerned about it and he should be. Apparently you didn't bother reading his posts or mine. I also talked about issues surrounding this subject where so many have this attitude about what they call "spirituality" and vegetarianism which has no validity. Try addressing some of the issues I brought up concerning this in the first post I put on this thread. So far, I have heard a lot of criticism headed my way but not a single person has tackled those issues. The issue is not about whether vegetarianism or meat eating is the right way to eat. The issue is about what is right for any particular person to eat, and knowing the real drawbacks of any particular foods, recognizing what works and doesn't and making changes to correct it. Going around anemic and spouting nonsense about meat does not help a person help themselves.