Ya Mu

Good point about organic label as well as the fact that it is tough to find clean meat. I personally don't like meat much except for fish and venison. But the fish is difficult to come by so I end up eating venison or rarely buffalo, which is much leaner than beef and has higher omega 3 content. I am one of those that has done vegetarian and like eating that way but find that without eating some meat I don't do as well. Have you tried finding farms that sell direct to the public? You may luck up on some much better pasture raised products that the farmer will take direct to butcher.

I wholeheartedly agree!

It is applied to show others how spiritual one is, looking down on those poor sinful meat eaters who simply don't understand how they are killing all the poor animals and how they are cutting off their spirituality by eating meat. To do it, first one turns their nose up, kinda in the air, making sure to give some type of remark about meat eaters... It can't be done without one showing their ignorance about certain facts and ignoring said facts when those they are pointed out. I don't see everyone who responded here doing the secret handshake. Only the ones who are "holier than thou". Some responded that they have done well as a vegetarian and explained they liked it. Nothing at all wrong with that. I like eating vegetarian too! The ones who, on the other hand, take serious offense at what I say are the ones doing the secret handshake. I have tried giving a balanced and realistic view. Some don't like it.

WRONG!!! The OP asked for opinions of experience with vegetarianism and was specifically concerned because he had done research that suggested it didn't work well for everyone (he is correct - it doesn't work well for everyone). Just because my experience with it differs from yours doesn't mean I "hijacked the thread". I gave him valid alternative opinions based on seeing dumbasses (not dumbasses for trying but dumbasses because it wasn't working for them and not doing anything about it) try vegetarian diets, get anemic as hell, then think they can't change because of un-thought through juvenile opinions about saving the animals and or/ spirituality - and I explained why. Why don't you attempt addressing the points I raised instead of spouting nonsense? In fact I have actually seen you answer his question other than give the old "vegge secret handshake". edit: I get that you like being a vegetarian. I am glad it works for you. But the fact is it doesn't work well for everyone.

You make a good point about the energetics. This is why I said properly butchered meat makes a heck of a difference and that I personally don't believe in eating the processed meat, unless there is nothing else to eat. Pasture raised and home butchered has significant difference in energetics. However, it still doesn't "connect one to spiritualism". Eating plants harvested by people who are negative, who curse while they work, who have no love for others, which are contaminated by the chemicals; have you considered what this does to the energetics of what you are putting into your body? Gonna make you more spiritual? Nada. This is why I suggest growing your own veggies with love and good energetics and without pesticide. HUGE difference in energetics. If it applies to meat it certainly also applies to veggies. Good point.

And I think that any "spiritual teacher" who thinks it does while making blank statements without regard to situation or detail, has read too many books versus true cultivation. That is "bullshit" to me. A "spiritual teacher" that does not consider everyone is no spiritual teacher. I didn't say it helps. See my point(s) in the post(s) above. If you think what I posted is "false excuses" then address the points I raised. I agree that most people can lower their meat consumption. But the fact remains that some people suffer when going totally meatless.

No problem with anyone defending veggie lifestyle. That is my preferred diet as well, with some fresh fish if possible. But what you came back with was a high-schoolish emotional rant instead of addressing the points I made. Try addressing the points. Folks! The pig poem was a joke. I am not a fan of pork. I also do not look down my nose at people who do eat pork although I do encourage them to eat only lean cuts from pasture raised. The other points I made are valid. There is no spiritual advantage to eating one way or the other. "Spiritual" is about how one approaches life. Eat veggie and don't attempt to help others? Is that better "spiritually" than one who eats meat and does? The bottom line in this argument is that some people can do only veggies and some people's health suffers. One of my points is that for those posting about how "spiritual" it made them; if they are included as one of the "veggie evangelists" who look down on others for eating meat with a "holier than thou" attitude, they are not acting "spiritual" by any means. Some people do need to eat meat. In general, health-wise, our population in the USA eats far too much meat and far too fatty meat. If one does eat meat, the pastured raised lean cuts are far better than the processed crap in the grocery store. If one eats veggies, then the chemical polluted crap in the grocery store is not really great for health. Much preferred, and the taste reflects this, is growing your own veggies. Even if one lives in an apartment there is usually a way to grow a part of what you eat. If you absolutely can't do this try to purchase from a farmer's market from farmer that grows veggies without pesticides.

"Also, the majority of vegetarians I have met seem to have this holier than thou attitude. And of course none of you proponents who post here have that, but it is just as bad as those who eat meat having the same attitude against vegetarians." Well, excuse me, I see I was totally wrong about the posters here.

Better Eat That Pig In the Morningtime Better Eat that Pig Tastes So Fine Better Eat that Pig You Know It's True Better Eat that Pig Before it Eats You! Perhaps food combining makes more difference to many people than being a vegetarian. Hmmm. Meats digest well if not combined with carbs. Many do extremely well on Paleo diet. Perhaps eliminating grains makes more difference than being a vegetarian. Some do not do well as vegetarian. Others do. If one eats meat best if pasture raised (more omega 3's), best if butchered properly. Best if lean. Best if you do it yourself. Whatever one eats whether meat or vegetables they should bless the food. And I don't mean petitioning some little old man in the sky, I mean really blessing it. Vegetables from the grocery store? Full of pesticides and other chemicals. Now, let us consider the "humane" "spiritual" aspect. So, let us assume that everyone on Earth gives up meat and goes vegetarian. Now those poor cows, goats, pigs, chickens, and turkeys are free from worry about being eaten and we can pat ourselves on the back for being "spiritual" and all these animals can live out long natural free lives. HA! Not so fast. Let us examine this. Take cows as our test. So now there is no reason for a rancher to feed the many cows (far too costly) and initially there will be a huge die off (yep, us "spiritual" people helped them ascend!), and perhaps bring disease to the human population. What remains will run wild and perhaps a few will live but most will not. Don't want those wild cows running in the streets so we enact laws to take them off the streets. What we gonna do with them? Kill them most likely or perhaps put them in a huge complex and pass extreme tax laws to pay for feeding them. OR they just becomes extinct. Hmmm. Reckon this will work? What did we do? We most probably killed off a whole group or groups of animals. How "spiritual" would that make us? Deer herds that are not hunted and thinned become a huge problem. If it were not for the hunting and eating of deer then there would be extreme disease and over-competition for the natural food available and thus a huge die-off of the deer. This is a fact. I didn't post this to piss off the vegetarians. I personally like to eat lots of vegetables and grow them myself and also am of the personal opinion that everyone should do so. But I am hearing a lot of "spiritual" posted here without consideration or if it is really true. Just some food for thought. Also, the majority of vegetarians I have met seem to have this holier than thou attitude. And of course none of you proponents who post here have that, but it is just as bad as those who eat meat having the same attitude against vegetarians. It doesn't make one more "spiritual" to eat either way. The OP asked for experiences with vegetarian diet. Full veg doesn't work well for a lot of people. If you decide to try, simply monitor your well being and don't be dumb about it if it doesn't work for you. It may work well for you or it may not.

Good work. It will only get better the more into Stillness-Movement you go. Good job on the "Listening" and the healing.

Send email and I will forward telephone number. Give me a call and we will discuss. It will depend on if you want to learn neigong and medical qigong. Terre Haute workshop will be a good one.

Good point. What happens with many practitioners is they try to learn this subject without a teacher or that they start getting powerful and go too far too fast and don't listen to their teacher. An example is teacher says, for right now,for another year or 2, don't project qi for more than 6 to 8 hours maximum at a time. The person, feeling cocky and qi bursting at the seems, projects for 12 hours straight working for 6 days a week doing this. This person has potential for burning out the nerve synapses which have not been conditioned to handle these extreme amounts of energy. A huge discomfort this is; don't ask me how I know. These things must be approached gradually and with a competent teacher to guide. And student should listen to their teacher's guidance.

Don't agree with this. Some things are independent of belief; they just are. Natural laws of energetics go beyond belief systems. Yes there are many ways of accessing these energetics and yes, some systems are far more effective than others, but as a system approaches it's capacity, finite, if mind oriented, or infinite, if non-linear, there are still natural laws which govern the projection and outcome. Such a belief as stated above ignores the developed illnesses of thousands of energy healing practitioners that absolutely do not believe in sick qi, absolutely do not believe it will harm them, that believe the universe has abundant energy that is fully available to them by some person holding his hand over their head, and that receive "a replenishing flow of energy from the patient, or possibly from the Qi of the universe" I have had MANY of these practitioners through my medical qigong clinic and have seen this first hand - it was not dependent on my belief or theirs. In fact, their belief is what got them in trouble. If a person gets ill from this depends on many factors. If they are healthy when starting out, and practice their qigong daily (assuming we are talking energetic exercise qigong and not calisthenics which some call qigong), practice regular exercise to maintain the body, don't project to over 1 or two people a day, don't have an inherent genetic disposition, don't partake of substances that hurt their bodies, and probably a few other things that I am not mentioning, then they may get by for years with no problem. What I have seen is that it catches up with many people within about 10 years UNLESS they have been properly trained in medical qigong, practice qigong/neigong regularly, and pay attention to what is going on with the projection. The fact TTB member flowing hands mentions about the body able to handle the energetics, which should be approached gradually, is also a strong consideration. And the people mentioned who all of a sudden, in an accident or other extreme situation, who were able to instantly access and perform superhuman events; what is not mentioned is that many or most of these people, depending on the nature of the event, received intense body trauma. Their bodies were not able to handle the intense flow. Some things just are and are beyond one's belief system. Sick energy coming out of a patient is just one of those things. Even very high level practitioners have to be careful when manipulating and projecting qi; there are lots of implications that go beyond this discussion. We eventually learn to transmute these sick energetics, but it certainly doesn't happen immediately with a practitioner as it requires much oomph. IMO it is absolutely a disservice to encourage these beginners on this board to ignore such things. Yes there are ways to help deal with everything but these ways do require time&effort (kungfu) and have to be learned and practiced. Otherwise everyone could heal others without any training or self-practice - and this simply is not the case. And sure, there are "naturals" out there that brought all their energy with them to Earth. But really very few in the overall population. Importance of Energy Body Transformation/Dan Tian Development for the Healer

Not to answer for flowing hands, but it is my understanding that many in China say 10 years minimum practice. That isn't what I teach but I have to say these schools of thought certainly have a point. 10 years of practice beats hell out of reading a book and just thinking that something is one way when it is another.

great advice. Proper training and proper daily practice is everything. I think the efficiency of the practice and the number of hours practiced per day would make all the difference in the world to determine exactly what the "long term" is but long term is always good. People who are considering doing medical qigong would be well served by actually studying it and not just thinking they can all of a sudden be great medical qigong healers without putting forth the time&effort or that they understand the implications of energy healing without the experience & training. Any field of study that is valid requires time&effort.

It is a difficult topic, one reason is because there are different ways of projecting qi. A lot of systems do use the mind and are considered body-mind medicine. In this aspect the flow will be linear. The system I teach bypasses mind and utilizes the non-linear level. In this aspect projection is utilized to "modulate" the manipulation, although one can see the energetics coming from hand into the persons body, and flowing to different areas. But in this flow we are "manipulating" the qi in the person's own body as well. So inherently tied together. To avoid confusion, we generally refer to "qi projection" although quite often I have said "qi manipulation". I think this is simply one of those things to be experienced as words often fail us in attempting explanations. We can only talk around it. I think the more correct translation of the Chinese would be "projection" as Wai Qi Liao Fa is "healing with external energy", meaning the energy comes from you and then becomes an external thing. But this is something scholars can argue about. We simply do, and obtain extremely high results.

In medical qigong we do in fact manipulate qi. But we ALSO do in fact send (project) qi. Medical qigong practitioners, can, of course, feel this flow. The above illustrates why medical qigong practitioners need to keep up a strong vibration energy body. Practice a minimum of 3 hrs a day to avoid ill effect of sick qi kickback. And consideration should be given to the efficiency of one's practice as well. All medical qigong systems that I know of have a corresponding self-healing/transformation associated practice.

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Hi, I don't agree that all manipulative therapy is bad. It depends on the person doing the manipulations. I am not a fan of chiropractic manipulation although I have met a very few chiropractors who knew what they are doing. I think the problem lies in the fact that to be good at manipulation requires a natural ability whereas it appears far too many chiropractors go through the school simply because they can make a lot of money. They then herd as many people as they can through the office in a day versus actually spending time with a person. Unfortunate, as this doesn't help anyone. If you can find an old-school osteopathic physician for a consultation, it may prove worthwhile. I personally found the osteopathic techniques to be much better than the C's. Unfortunately they are hard to find as osteopathic graduates of recent years are virtual MD clones without the extensive physical medicine training. But there are a few around. In Central America, probably hard to find,there are bone-setters. I hear great things about these healers. In China, Tui Na manipulation has been performed for thousands of years. Some alternatives to manipulation therapy would be to find an Asian Bodywork Therapist or Medical Qigong healer. I retired from clinic last year so I can't help you with the physical aspect in terms of Taoist Medicine, which is not a manipulation method, but is geared at achieving balance. Where are you located? Are you in USA? Possibly I may know someone in your area so send me a PM.

In April: Stillness-Movement & Gift of the Tao Neigong with Optional Medical Qigong & Taoist Medicine Clinical Applications

Always finite. But yes, with many possibilities. Nothing wrong with mind-body medicine. I just don't practice it. Would rather leap into the non-linear. Pitfalls of Mind Yes, I have hated that "let's try this" approach in western medicine. Every single time I have ever been to a western doctor, with the exception of two times, I have been left with a feeling that I just attended a circus. That said, western medicine offers some powerful mojo when it works and should not be discounted. An example; if if I had of not seen that one physician I mention above I would be dead. I like the concept of world medicine. If we took all of what works and combined it into a system...no more circus. "...does not mean that there are no "behind the scenes" things going on" This is true. Mind is linear and limited. Awareness is non-linear, beyond mind, and infinite.

And it could be suggested that mind is the single most limiting factor.

Glad your daughter is better! A smiling 5 year old - priceless! These are the type of results that all students of this lineage have. Both Brion & Jim who are listed in the above website have an outstanding result rate; they both are graduates of my medical qigong program and have my endorsement. Since I am semi-retired from clinic to concentrate on teaching I refer to these guys as well as other students quite a bit. I do realize that medical qigong can seem to be some type of fantastical & majical thing. But I can assure you that it is a science & healing art form of the highest order that comes direct from a hospital based environment. And I firmly believe that, in time, perhaps not in my lifetime but mark my words, western science will be able to explain it and possibly correctly model it. And, it is not placebo.

Yes, for me as well I have seen that most people feel the qi moving into the area pf pain and feel the sick qi leaving. I also have no problem with placebo effect and agree with you guys that say if it heals, does it matter?. Goodness, we are talking about problems that have tremendous effect on people's lives, so if they get better by believing that they will if they go bury an egg under the full moon and they do so then by all means it is a grand thing. I guess it kinda depends on one's definition of "placebo". I personally have always considered placebo effect to be mind-body medicine. In other words, for it to work a belief that it will work needs to be established. And since the medical qigong that I teach does not depend on belief (animals have no belief one way or the other)I say it is most definitely not a placebo effect. That great source of info , wikipedia says this: "A placebo ( /pləˈsiboʊ/; Latin: I shall please[2]) is a simulated or otherwise medically ineffectual treatment for a disease or other medical condition intended to deceive the recipient. Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect. In medical research, placebos are given as control treatments and depend on the use of measured deception." By this definition, by the fact that it works on animals with no belief as well as people who are of the definitely-by-god-you-must-be-shitting-me-you-fucking-idiot non-believer ilk, medical qigong is not a placebo. Edit: For a contrary opinion, there are those that believe this is what a placebo is: