Ya Mu

Any success is always the culmination of the many small things. We can do the best we can do, and, that is the best we can do.

Ah, what I am referring to is "Listening" in the moment of the moment. The "knowing" comes only in that moment as Tao is a dynamic state of flux that we are "Listening" and "dancing" with (wu wei). So the "knowing" is refreshed in the moment of the moment. This does require the practice of neigong as the accuracy of the "Listening" depends on raising the energy body vibration as well as dampening the brain/mind.

It is when we can walk outside of these tied-to-me experiences, via dampening the brain waves so the totality of perception comes from the tuned/refined energy body with direct input from what I call "Listening", versus the mind/brain, that we can catch glimpses of the entirety of Tao and how we interface.

I agree with what you have written. It is (to me and others) a very sad situation. Where I live whenever I walk into wally world I see at least 10 teenage children walking around with their own children. They have no job and are 3rd generation welfare. I talk to people about implementing solar for their homes... woops, can't afford it, just bought a 40K SUV! And, as I said earlier, the majority of people are too damn lazy to change. I've previously posted about trying to give away fresh peas we grew in our garden; one neighbor was too lazy to pick them and when I picked them and offered to another neighbor they were too lazy to shell them. FRESH food, and they would rather go to the grocery store and buy stuff that costs us trillions and trillions of dollars with damage to our ecosystem due to trucking as well as factory chemical farming. THIS is why I reacted so adamantly to the gardening subject. "...I think we achieve this through wu-we..." Yes! I teach what I call "Listening" which is a way in each moment of the moment to dance in the wu wei.

I agree with this part. But I think what you are not getting is that the "natural" growing of food for ourselves versus the "(Un)- natural" trucking in of food is exactly one of the most powerful things we could do for your "...what matters is how we can diminish the impact we have on the environment". One can feel this in the natural current flow, which, as I said, unless a person actually practices neigong I think it would be difficult to feel this, although it certainly should be understandable to anyone on an intellectual level. edit: And to address your comments on nuclear. I agree. Most certainly nuclear energy is "unnatural" per my definition of "natural" above. It is very easy to feel/SEE this, although it is obvious that far too many don't understand this on an intellectual level.

OK, What about if we substituted the words "in harmony with Tao" for the word "natural". Is it, in your opinion more in harmony with Tao to grow your own food or to truck it in? Or since Tao is everything you don't agree to "harmony within Tao" (Dao within Doa) concept? HA - see, I did get back on thread.

"You need to pay attention." Aaron, I have no problem understanding what you are saying. Can you please stop the condescending attitude you are displaying and post to what we were talking about? You didn't address the things I brought up. "Second I never said trucking in food was more natural than growing it" Well, I asked you which of the two was more natural (since there are but two choices) and still have not received your answer. So I was assuming you were saying it was. So which is it, which are you saying is more natural? "Again, since you have a problem understanding what I am saying..." And again, pleases stop your condescending replies. "Second I do not try to define the Tao anymore, but if you wish to, more power to you." It sure sounded like it to me in the posts I referenced. And where was I in this thread defining Tao - you assume too much. "If it makes you feel good to simulate that, then again, more power to you." And again more of the same.

You sure are doing more than the majority lazy ass people do. Good for you! My whole point is that, when we can grow food locally, on our porch, on the terrace, in our backyard, etc. why could it be more pragmatic to truck the food in? IMO it is not. It is just the type of thinking represented by going to the grocery store to get the food that is trucked in instead of making the effort to grow it locally that is bringing our nation to its knees.

"it is one thing to argue idealistic gaols, quite another to implement pragmatic solutions, even if they are less than the 'ideal'.. it really is." Here is where we disagree. I believe it is an entirely pragmatic solution for folks to grow their own food versus trucking it in. I really doesn't take much space; you would be surprised at how much food can be grown in a very small space. If you don't already do so, you really would.

"You have me at a loss. Where did I derive a definition of Tao?" Here "doesn't mean that I believe harvesting food or growing gardens is part of Tao or even natural" and here where you replied to stig "I was disagreeing with you because I thought you had interpreted the meaning of Tao wrong. I still do" But about natural gardening versus trucking in food: Your explanation makes no sense. You seem to think that it is MORE natural to truck in the food than to plant it yourself; these ARE the only two choices. You gonna go out with your gun and shoot enough game to eat? On whose land? You gonna go out and pick enough berries to live on? Gonna naturally drive your car to where you can? Good luck. Two choices. Which is more natural?

Ah, but you miss a few things. Yes, even in urban environments, it is quite possible to grow quite a bit of one's own food. Why don't people do this? Mostly because they are too damn lazy. "What! I have to pick it?" "What, I have to shell it?" "Honey, go down to the grocery store and get some food." So we burn up gas, adding to the already screwed environment, and go purchase food grown thousands of miles away - which was brought in by truck, burning up more fuel, adding to our environmental disaster. So we purchase oil from clear across the world so these trucks can have the fuel to bring food from thousands of miles away. Oh wait! It doesn't stop there. We now have to spend trillions in warfare so as to control those oil producing countries so we can have the oil to make fuel to go into the trucks so we can truck food across the country. All this makes no sense whatsoever. One other thing is that "but it can insist on a holistic relationship throughout the supply line and custodial chain" is impossible when we truck food in from across the country. Go look in your local grocery store and see where it came from. How do you suggest that be controlled in a "holistic relationship" WITHOUT local food production? It really can't. We will pay the price for the foolishness of this type of thinking.

Your self-derived definitions of Tao are baffling. Natural - existing in or formed by nature (dictionary.com). Since we are indeed part of nature and we need to eat to survive then starving is not natural; the way of all natural creatures is to eat to survive. So starving would indeed be unnatural. Sure getting out in nature is grand. Living as much in the Tao as I can, I subscribe to that myself. But the way of hunter/gatherer, as a large part of existence is long past. Although I personally AM a hunter / gatherer, but only to a small extent. So planting a garden and growing your own food is indeed natural, as opposed to unnaturally trucking food in or sitting on your ass and letting others do it for you, eating that trucked in food. Since those are the only two choices, which of those do you think is more natural, the truck going hundreds of thousands of miles to feed you or you planting and growing your own food?

Yes. +++ But folks do need to understand that Chinese medicine is much more than just acupuncture & herbs; Tui Na, Taoist Neuro-Energetic Medicine, and Medical qigong are other modalities in Chinese Medicine. I find it strange that so many people wish for (whatever is wrong with them) or attribute (whatever is wrong with them) to "chakras". I would say in clinic over 30 years I have only found a very few cases where this was so. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it usually is a duck.

Do you really believe that harvesting food/growing gardens is unnatural? So are you saying it is natural to starve? Or natural to sit on our asses, not growing our own food, trucking it in from far away? Best way I know to really experience Earth is to grow your own food. I believe that there certainly are only a handful of "sages", but just because you have never met one doesn't mean that they don't exist. The "how to find out" is exactly what Taoist neigong practice reveals. Experiences are certainly a part of Tao. I guess it depends on what one wishes to experience in this life. Many are stuck in physicality; this reveals only a small part of Tao. Not to say that physicality should be ignored, as it IS that small part.

The system I do is of Taoist origins. It is definitely energy cultivation. Although I will say it is much more difficult than walking qigong cultivation. One can run for as long as his/her body can. My teacher used to do this for 25 miles per day. I am not that industrious. I used to run much farther than I do now.

Dao Within Dao? "I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude." Sorry, this is what I thought of when I saw the title of the thread.

One's qi affects interactions with others in all aspects, affecting understanding of the interaction reality. Usually alongside qi development there is a corresponding virtue development. This most definitely effects our interaction with and understanding of others. By raising our energy body vibration we can see things from another viewpoint. Like the Windhorse concept - can't solve a problem on the level of the problem but by rising to another level before approaching the problem. Also, there is, once a person cultivates to a certain point, a distinct magnetic induction effect. This helps raise others vibrations. Affect how one feels. The difference is night and day. Vibrancy, less chance of illness, quicker recovery from illness. A certain understanding of the unknown. Instead of "I HAVE to take out the garbage, dang it!" it becomes "Oh boy, I GET to take out the garbage!"

Looks interesting and possibly similar to the basics of Running Qigong. Running Qigong, as I practice and teach to advanced students, consists of a core technique (appears by just glancing at your link that it may be similar). Then we add to this the specific techniques of Stamina, Lightness, Swiftness, and Qi Pushing. Think I'll go do some right now.

Energy projection is something a medical qigong healer does to help people; qi manipulation. I asked because I ran into a situation in my pain clinic before where someone was doing that with the type of meditation system you describe and the results were similar to yours. Have you seen a physician? It is possible the pain has little to do with the meditation and is related to a medical problem. After you have ruled out a medical problem, then a medical qigong doctor/therapist/healer would be someone to try. I have had great success in clinic with these type of things. Possibly an acupuncturist or Osteopath could help. edit: One thing a person who has head pain can try is vigorously rubbing K1 acupoint on the bottom of both feet, 100 times per foot. But rule out potential medical problems is first step.

Uh, perhaps you should stop doing something that makes your head hurt? Does it quit when you cease for several days? Are you doing energy projection?

Exactly. Creation, I wasn't trying to imply that your situation is hopeless. Things can always change. And I have seen stupendously amazing mind-boggling recoveries with these practices. I am just saying sometimes we need a little help and that there ARE things that can help you whereas the practice of qigong alone may not be enough (right now). It is ALWAYS possible that over time it could be. Hang in there!

Your screaming "NO" at the top of your lungs had nothing to do with the Gift of the Tao movements and everything to do with your mental state at the moment. I still suggest rebounding, walking, running, and even mild weight lifting. Perhaps one of those highly physical progressive dance classes would be something to look at. A lot of people have had mental relief with intense exercise. There is nothing wrong with seeking professional help from a physician. Millions of people do and most actually do get benefit. Qigong and neigong, of ANY kind, is not a one-pill-cures-all solution. We would wish it were so as these practices HAVE helped millions all over the world.

Never do the Stillness-Movement without doing the closing part. It is an inherent part of the system.

The movements you describe are normal. I think that you should consider adding the Gift of Tao movements for balance. Did you do the full closure of the Stillness-Movement system? Over time, this will help open all the channels that are blocked. Also, you may want to go outside a couple of times a day and put your palms on the Earth for a few minutes. Also "walk me out in the morning dew" qigong by skimming the grass with your bare feet. If you feel the Stillness-Movement is causing a negative reaction neurologically then you should not do it and look to professional help. Medical qigong, done by a qualified professional, shiatsu, or other bodywork can often assist the body. If it is a medical condition then see a qualified physician. One thing that a person could try is just the "closing" part of the Stillness-Movement for a few weeks. It can be a good qigong in itself for helping to open up channels and remove stuck qi.