Ya Mu

"Also, for you to say "this is the highest aspect of Taoist medicine." is a generalization that I would also have some doubts about, but would not have a problem at all if you had said "this is the highest aspect of the Taoist medicine tradition that I learned and practice.". Two quite different things." Not two different things. I don't think you understand what is being said. This IS the highest aspect of Chinese Taoist Medicine. It is what is meant by the words "High Level". The other forms are either mid or low. NOT "what I said" or "only in my method" but how it is explained in Chinese Medicine. And, by the way, I am not the only person to say this. 5ET obviously understands this, Efrem Korngold talks about this, and other teachers who have been trained in High level healing talk about this. It is not saying other medicine forms are bad or ineffective, simply that the form whose goal is "helping patients achieve their Destiny" is the highest goal that one can have. And it is the core of the Taoist neigong that I teach. Finding and fulfilling one's Destiny. There is nothing else that can come close to the inner joy that this brings, a feeling of "coming home". It is the very ultimate that we can do in this lifetime; otherwise what the heck are we doing here, just bidding time? If we were meant to only "hang out in the void" we wouldn't have come to Earth. Spirit guides are ascended masters. I do not know of any Taoism that does not talk about the ascended Masters, but possibly there is? Also interested in more from 5ET, but he has already said this. I think the confusion may be the interpretation of Destiny? It is not something that just "happens" to you. It is what your Higher Level self, your true inner core, chose. To follow is learning to dance in the Wu Wei, in the synchronicity of all.

5ET is spot on. Finding and fulfilling Destiny is fundamental to what I practice and teach. Our primary goal. This is the highest Taoist neigong level. This is the highest aspect of Taoist medicine. Of course when we raise our energy body vibration we move closer to the level of the ascended masters. Help is available. But every YOU has to learn responsibility as well. Levels of medicine: Highest Level - Help patient to find & fulfill Destiny Mid Level - Mental Low Level - Physical

Great post! .."The highest attainment that anyone can achieve is to operate from their own highest destiny. ..." I wish all could understand this.

Only High Level medicine will address this situation. A person has to first want to get better. My attitude, derived from many years in clinic is "Nope, I don't believe a freakin word of it, cut the bullshit - but if you really decide you want my help I will try." Alcohol and drug addiction is treatable with Taoist medicine. Wrong. The true person inside - the Spirit - is treatable with Taoist medicine. Physically one thing that happens is serotonin depletion. Nerve synapses firing with no buffer. We can to a certain extent balance this. A highly nutritional diet, a specialized qigong/neigong program, and a specialized physical exercise program alongside Taoist medicine are things that can help. In the end it is up to the person. You were probably looking for a different answer but I can only respond with what I know.

I don't know that there is any one way or choice in making such a decision. Sometimes we just have to do whether we are sure or not. After the research, which may or may not give any valid information, if we can get our minds still and make the choice from our center - our true-heart, it should be a learning choice, whether it is the "right" path for us at the time or not. I would like to say any choice is a good one but unfortunately for many people this has not proven true. In other words, does it feel right? No? perhaps back off. Yes? What are you waiting for. Of course this method does require practice and we get back to a circle. So in the end, we simply have to make a choice. If there is nothing in the first few days that resonates, perhaps it is not the best choice - then move on. For what I teach it is usually a feeling of "coming home" for most, and they achieve this in the first two days. We have people projecting qi with a 70% to 100% result in 3 days, so there is no "Is this valid?" At a recent workshop a young woman said "I just knew I was supposed to be here." So for her, there was no drama associated with the "finding", she just acted on faith and it proved to be a powerful experience for her. I guess I really have no advice other than the old "seek and ye shall find". May or may not right off be what any particular person is looking for; I do firmly believe that their is a certain amount of power for us in the effort itself.

I think you bring up a valid and possibly important question. And appreciate that you have offered almost two different views. I think there is nothing inherently wrong in doing the research. I believe that all of us who have the tools at our disposal have been doing that and will continue to do so. But I also think a valid point was made with the last statement. I believe it is very difficult for a student who has no innate understanding to actually make a proper judgement of anything concerning the internal energy arts, or at least it is only an intellectual judgement which can be valid or invalid.

Except for your last paragraph of condescending attitude where you lay false premise (and again get off the subject - wonder why you feel the need) I actually agree with you. It doesn't change the parents responsibility to instill the work ethic, that, obvious to me, and I would have thought obvious to others, is far too often ignored in the later generations. It was once considered very important. So as it stands your words suggest you do not feel it is the parents responsibility to instill a work ethic in their children. Unfortunately most parents of the later generations appear to feel the same way. Which was my main point to begin with.

I did say I didn't know anything about you or how you were brought up. I only repeated what you said, and obviously hit a nerve. But I didn't say those things, you did. My statement was based only on what you said. Had you added the other about actually working and not indulging only in sports there would have been a different conclusion. So let us drop any personal references, like you started with the - must hate kids thing - as you don't know anything about me either. Lets talks hypothetical. I really don't think you see my point - at all - as you keep ignoring what I am actually saying and then refer to other things. Let us use an example that I see in my hometown. Johnny was a pretty good boy but his all consuming compassion was football. His father thought about making Johnny work this summer, and last summer, but Johnny wanted to play football with his friends. So he was allowed to. Johnny was offered an after school job but his grades stated deteriorating due to coming home late everyday from football practice. But his mother and father kept thinking they would improve. So any time after football was spent trying to bring his grades up. Yes, no job for Johnny. Johnny eventually graduated from high school. It turned out that he was only mediocre in football so it held no future. He got a job cutting up meat at the local processing plant but decided what he was doing was beneath his dignity and quit. So now he hangs out at his trailer and his friends, who have turned to meth, drop by. Pretty soon Johny was hooked on the meth and started to make it and sell it. He just got busted and received prison time. All this because HE NEVER LEARNED a work ethic. (and I will use emphasis caps anytime I wish, thank you) This is a true story, a neighbor, the name has been changed. And I could give about 100000 examples but you seem stuck about the parent's fault thing. Parents DO have a choice, whether you or anyone else who is a parent wishes to believe so or not, about instilling a work ethic into their children. Yes, sometimes what we teach our children doesn't get into their heads until later, but I ask you where else would the child learn a work ethic if not from their parents? I repeat what I said earlier, to me it is obvious this is happening in our country and, in a large part, is responsible for the downfall of America. No work ethic. I see it everyday and find it hard to believe that others don't. I guess it depends on where one lives and perhaps on one's socio-economic status. Come visit our local wallyworld, take a few strolls around, and talk to some people, then draw your conclusions. Come during the daytime when most people are working (or at least when most people in other places are working). Not judgmental, just plainspoken fact. The post below actually says a lot. Although I also, as you, don't agree with the "liberal reference" as it seems to be a trend that applies to all. You agreed with this and seemed to accept that it is a parent's responsibility, but you appear to think that instilling a work ethic is not part of the same said responsibility. This is where we disagree. And yes, a parent can only make the attempt. My point is that far too many don't. And how does all this apply to the thread topic? If a person has no work ethic how are they going to learn Taoist energy arts? If a person is lazy how are they going to learn something that has as a very definition "time & effort"? They won't.

". ..I was taught a work ethic - it was my choice not to listen... so, no blaming the parents - thats a cheap way out which is ussually spoated by people with out kids who are irritated by other peoples kids)..." Not sure why you are hung up on a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was referring to. I don't know where you live but here in the USA this is an OBVIOUS thing. Obvious to ANY thinking person. Perhaps it is not so where you live. Parents are our guides in teaching a work ethic and it has been sadly displaced over the last 20-30 or so years. Look at kids who were raised on a farm that had to work each day before they went to university and look at those that "hung out" at the mall, played video games, texted for hours each day and were never asked to be responsible for themselves then went to university. Which of this group do you think makes the better worker? Easy to choose. The others NEVER LEARNED HOW. Rather not talk personally, but just repeating back what you have said and knowing nothing else about your background (so perhaps you were later taught), it appears to me that you were NOT taught a work ethic - you were indulged in sports activities versus teaching you how to pay your own way. You were not working at anything other than your sports. You never learned to actually make your own money and pay your own bills; this was something you had to do later. Lazy is lazy - there is no psycho-babble description of "labeling" it or any type of prejudice. It is a thing that is or is not. Lazy "averse or disinclined to work, activity, or exertion; indolent" As far as Taoist practices, people who are too lazy to find or seek the training will never have it. Gongfu = time&effort (opposite of above lazy definition)

Where did you hear that nonsense?

I agree with you. Inherent difference in dynamics? Nope. Parents can choose to monitor activity - surfing for pictures and chatting with friends is not the same thing as a group project. Before internet getting the child to assume responsibility is EXACTLY the same thing as today. Hopefully you yourself are way past what I am referring to. If you are not, you are probably flunking school. edit: I will say this though. Either you are a genius or you are majoring in underwater basketweaving, which, last I checked didn't offer too many job opportunities. ALL the time that you post here - there is absolutely NO WAY I would have been able to do that in university. Some of your arguments are good but have you considered that you could have gotten a job and been paid for all those hours you have spent posting? And used the money to attend weekend workshops? And already know things that a teacher could offer you? I am sure you have a brilliant comeback to that but just consider for a moment. O You were indulged in sports instead of taught a work ethic. Hopefully the sports DID instill some really good things for you. But this is another example of what happens to a lot of kids - their parents allow that indulgence with no balance, usually football in this country.

Surely you are correct - not all parents are to blame. As I said, it boils down to damnlazy. But still, far too many are. It was kinda like, well, I had to work my ass off when I was young and I don't want my kids to have to do that OR both parents too busy working to see to it that their kids learned a work ethic. At least that is what I see in my family, my community, nearby towns, other cities, and our nation(USA). We as a majority have most definitely lost our work ethic. My point was I don't see it as an internet thing per se but as an overall energetic problem and I was placing only a part on the parents of my generation. Personally I worked my butt off as a kid and I learned a work ethic that simply is not prevalent in today's younger people. Again, not all - just the majority. A parent CAN choose to allow their children only certain time on the internet, only a certain time texting, etc and CAN instill in their children a work ethic. Now so many don't even know how. it's now like "Pay for my own phone? Ah come on dad! Nobody else has to do that." As far as energetic arts, there is no debate to be had, anyone that thinks all the crap on the internet is the inherent aspect of true energetic arts simply has not been exposed to the real thing. Not the same thing, at all.

Yes, I didn't "grow up" on the internet but was involved with the internet before it was an internet. So I don't consider this issue to be "net generation" versus "not net generation". I think it is simply an issue of damnlazy versus not damnlazy and respectful versus not respectful. In part the damnlazy IS caused by parents who didn't see that their kids needed to learn a work ethic. Work? Nah, hang at the mall, watch tv, play video games, surf internet. We all have had our difficulties and it certainly is not confined to current younger generation. Seems to me to much whining going on. I worked nights as a janitor, weekends as a painter/odd jobs, and summers as a deck hand to put myself through college. Big deal.

A few years back I was playing bass with a guy who was in his mid 80's. I was watching his face and before my eyes he turned into a 8 year old kid. It was one of those rare transformational moments in which everything becomes clear. I am older than you but if you look at me you will see the 8 year old running, jumping and playing. We age and our physical bodies die. But if we maintain that sense of awe, like everything is new and wondrous (which it really is), then age never really catches us.

I guess everything is relative; come to one of my workshops and you will see why I say this. But qigong = study of energy. If we call every stretching exercise the "study of energy" then the word "qigong" has certainly been diluted. IMO there is no evidence to suggest they (8 Pieces) are a better energy exercise than say, rebounding. In fact, I would say they are not near as powerful or efficient as the physical exercise rebounding. But they are a good physical exercise and can help warm up the muscles. And to be perfectly clear, qigong is not a breath control system nor a movement system, either. Although quite a few ignorant authors as well as people on forums keep saying so.

The 8 Brocade Pieces are pretty much stretching exercises. A lot of teachers, including me, use them as a physical warm up prior to doing any real qigong. They are good exercises, but I personally do not classify them as qigong. 5ET is giving you good advice.

Yes, Ken is correct that the calisthenic exercises many call qigong have nothing much to do or say with Love. The thing is, we have ALWAYS been in a position to take it to higher levels. But how many have chosen that? On the other hand, true neigong systems like Stillness-Movement hold the embodiment of Love at the core. Pure unadulterated, non-conditional Love - not someone prattling on about what their belief of Love is, but the true Love expression of our inner core, our true-heart, our Higher Level selves.

Oh, I don't know that we are that far apart in our views. I was attempting to keep the other part out of it as I was trying to stay on subject from a "Taoist" viewpoint. IMO quite a bit of what is called "morality" is only the present and everyday expression of our trueselves. We do the things which some religions call "moral" because of who we are. The lesser emotions of expression, such as guilt, hate, and fear, are not an aspect of our trueselves. Whereas expressions of kindness, compassion, and love are natural expressions of our trueselves. So I agree that observation of folks and how they interact with others does point to their level of comprehension and cultivation.

Oh I agree. But it becomes a two way street. Without tapping into the higher vibrations and tuning into one's true inner core it is very difficult to actually know what some term "high virtue" is. But without practicing this "high virtue" then it is very difficult to progress in the cultivation. Almost a catch 22 except if one works at both at the same time then the other becomes more viable.

Disappointed that you removed your post. It made several valid points. But I will give my viewpoint on these things. Oral traditions and teachings, IMO, are far more valid than the written ones. For in the written ones, only a part is revealed. When I first started on this path I read the TTC and many many other books on Taoism. And I actually thought I understood quite a bit of it and considered myself a fairly "informed modern Taoist". Then I found my first Taoist Teacher, the one I spent a 12 year apprenticeship with. I attempted to impress him with my "book learning" and he laughed at me, over and over. After several years of practicing the Taoist internal cultivation techniques I laughed with him; it was truly hilarious that I thought I understood these things by reading about them. IMO and IME no one can possibly truly understand these things without first putting about 20 years into internal cultivation. And even then we only understand SOME things. I know that after putting in this cultivation the TTC makes more sense, however there is a "gotcha". One finds that the translations are inadequate without the context, and furthermore unless one intensely learns Chinese and figures out the particular cultural context of any particular writing then the meaning is still not clear, as it could mean any number of things. So as to the subject of "virtue", without the internal cultivation it truly is difficult to actually experience the path of virtue and apply it in each and every moment. Otherwise, we are only experiencing or applying our individual concept of what Virtue actually is.

I think eating bad peanuts could possibly do the trick.

Some very good points here.

AS a healer and one who teaches others how to heal one of the most certain things I have run across is that compassion is forefront. So I didn't mean in the points I listed that we shouldn't have compassion. But I maintain that true compassion can be separated from emotional empathy and are two different things. When we do a healing, we act from the most high aspect of ourselves. But we must separate from the emotion for many reasons. An example is that we practice high level (according to Chinese definition of low, mid and high level healing). So our goal is to help the patient achieve his/her destiny. NOT concerned with any type of emotional involvement as that would put us back on the level of the problem (remember the windhorse; must rise above the level of a problem in order to solve it). Did we remove our compassion when we separate compassion from emotion? Absolutely not - or we wouldn't be doing the healing to start with. Furthermore this separaration is mandatory as we must disassociate from the healing itself once it is completed as we must move on to the next patient. Also, I do maintain that it is associated with the practice. I know it is from observation of many many students and from my own experience and is an inherent part of our teachings. At least it is with Stillness-Movement Neigong. And I would think any true neigong practice that raises the energy body vibration would allow the same thing, although I can't be certain of this and will allow that if a practice isn't high level then it probably will not lead to this. I don't usually use the term "virtue" or "high virtue" as it is most confusing to those (99 percent of population) who are not familiar with Taoist terms. And it also appears confusing to those who do know Taoist terms. And I think what I call "Listening" explains the process much better although do agree that this is not about semantics but the process itself, which it appears few understand. About emotions. What many fail to realize when they discuss or practice is the simple fact that we ARE emotion beings. How boring it would be if we all walked around suppressing our emotions. So we should allow this natural expression of ourselves. But to accomplish "Listening" we learn to simply shift to sample the true ebb and dynamic flow of energetics in the moment of the moment. So we can do this while in a moment of laughter. A part of this is learning how to have a first and second awareness and shifting in between. I did say that I had somewhere around a 100 pages to attempt to describe this process so I do realize what I write here as well as the 100 pages will never describe the process itself; this process is very confusing to attempt a linear description of as it most certainly is non-linear. I still maintain it (ability to maintain "high virtue") is a natural inherent aspect of ourselves; we DO have the ability to make the "right" decision at each and every moment. This ability just needs awakening. We (those of us involved in high level energy healing) utilize it each and every day and carry it over into our daily lives.

The main points I have concerning what I have referred to in this thread are: 1) It is a process that requires time&effort and has nothing to do with emotions or thinking. 2) Unless someone has a life-changing natural event happen, such as being struck by lightening, it won't happen simply thinking about it. 3) The practice of virtue is only valid for the moment as we live in a dynamic universe versus a static universe. 4) In each and every moment, with practice, the process achieves continuity, there is no waiting or "I don't have time" or "I can't do this". 5) It really makes no difference in what a person believes to be true. If said person practices a valid internal cultivation technique, and practice at what I call "Listening", then it will happen. So this is not about "what I said" but about what becomes self-evident to the practitioner. Anyone can do this that practices as it is a part of who we really are.

Any type of thinking actually gets in the way of this process. As it is only valid in the moment and of the moment. And it has nothing to do with emotions as well. Emotions can be either glad or sad or neutral, as long as a person can step out of the particular emotion to sample the moment from their inner core. Yes this is the intuitive process, but the process of cultivation will enhance and develop this process. And I agree that it is something inherent in everyone. The process of cultivation helps remove the filters that get in the way of this process. The reason I call it "Listening" as opposed to listening is that I mean to really KNOW one has to stop the world at that moment for each and every moment and "Listen" to the inherent intuitive factor. Then we absolutely KNOW, not from any type of preconceived idea, or belief, but from the energetics of the moment. But the knowing is only valid in that moment. This is true high virtue because we cannot be virtuous by thinking, which is clouded by belief, or indulgence in emotions, but only by surfing the wave of the moment in the moment by the moment. I took somewhere around 100 pages to talk about this in the new book (with a running example) and thought about posting an excerpt from the book but people on this forum have a way of wanting to argue and this is really nothing to argue or debate about; only do (or be). It just is and is not dependent on what any person wishes to call it or believe about it.