Cameron

All interesting views. I don't really see either view as right or wrong necissarily. If you want to say the self is empty or the self realizes its true nature(I beleive this is called Zhi Ran in Taoism?) I think when Taoists talk about finding your authentic nature or Zhi Rhan and when Buddhists talk about finding Buddha Nature they are basically talking about the same thing. But I think each has their own unique expression. Actually, I have been reading some poetry of the Persian Masters Rumi and Omar Khayyam a little recently and as far as I can tell they are basically also saying the same thing as what Buddhists and Taoists do but from their unique cultural backround and views. I don't really like to even talk in terms of different religions so much as in terms of truth. I mean, truth is truth, right? Just different human descriptions of truth which will always have limitations. The Tao Te ching talks about that.

Yeah, yeah Sean that whole there is no you thing. That's sort of interesting but whats the 'next' juicy topic we can argue over and find problems with to keep 'you' going. I am joking of course. Those momentary encounters I have had of no self have been like treasured gifts of the universe. To see beyond the 'little me' to use Tolle language is so very ordinary and so freeing. I can only hope to shut up and let my teachers help guide me more deeply into this unknown wonder. As opinions and any sense of self that can be identified dissolves, a deeper peace arises. One of my teachers, Nirmala, uses the metaphor of the self being like trying to construct a building out of marbles Just keeps rolling away..

There are some other extra credits too. I emailed my teacher to let me know what they are. I think he is mostly just looking for those who havent gotten into it yet to participate in internet stuff.

Hehe. My E Business class at school. Its pretty interesting goes over the whole history of computers and the internet and modern technolgy and stuff.

I personally enjoy Sean D's presence here. It adds to the mix and presents a different view. I mean, maybe he's a little rude(I actually don't remember him ever being rude to me except when I was rude to him first ) But so what? I mean, those of us who have been around these discussions have seen much worse manners. He's opinionated, he's brash, he thinks he knows more about Taoism than the rest of us. That's some quality entertainment right there! I say allow the space for ego and opinions. Just allow space for that. Sean O won't let the manners go down too much if it really gets out of hand or something people can ignore the user. To add another view, can we allow the possibilty that there is no problem. See what happens when you let go of judgment of others problems and faults. I have found when doing this I can meet others more honestly and openly. Just try it occasionally..then of course your ego can always remain in control and see problems. I was thinking about this recently. And I might be completly full of shit. I don't know. But can ego dominate your experience in the absence of problems? It's an interesting practice. It's one thing to do it while sitting in silence in your home but extending the spirit of allowance to others is something I am interested in exploring. And I am a total beginner at it.

Very interesting thread. I still think Ken Cohen's view is the most balanced I have seen so far. That emptiness meditation(observing mind) and standing meditation(building qi up) are the foundation but you can also 'play' with practices like MCO. What I get from Ken is the emphasis that Emptiness, Sitting and Forgetting etc, and zhan zhuang are the main 'practice' and other stuff like MCO is basically 'playing' with qi. I don't really do the 'playing' too much anymore just observing but Ime not at the point to say 'playing' is complete garbage yet. Am interested to maybe start training with a high level internal martial artist this year to get more feedback on the issue. Cam

Maybe this isn't taking into accound the profoundess of the question. But wouldn't the past be what has happened, the future be what hasn't happened yet. And the present what is actually happening? I mean, of course the past has informed the present but it's past. It's what has already happeend. Right now is what is happening. Like when you follow the breath, you connect to what is happening now and just follow the breath(of course you might be also thinking about the past or the future and not really following the breath).. It can get very deep. You might go beyond clinging to the past(You still speak english and know how to ride a bicycle of course). Just more nonsense added to the pot of not knowing.

Cool. Also, and I know it's a long shot, but it would be pretty cool if that whole honesty thing was eventually introduced into government and politics. I have to think that's a good start. When your always just dealing with opinions and beliefs and irrational conflict for the sake of conflict(or ego or whatever) it's hard to even approach real honest dialogue. And maybe even do it without yelling your opinions too. Could you imagine our leaders and leaders of other countries sitting down and calmly, honestly discussing things .Would be radical.

From what I can gather, most conflicts arise from lack of basic respect, or maybe not respect but acknowledging the views of the other. Almost all conflict seems to arise when MY views and MY way of thinking is challeneged or disagreed with. It seems Sean D is coming from the persective that basically most people on this board don't know too much about Taoism or whatever, so right off the bat people are going to be offended. I sort of agree with Sean D, I don't think it's that big a deal, we can disagree without resorting to calling each other names or just having bad manners. I think it's the rudeness that sort of puts people off. And of course once one person is rude it sort of spreads like a fire and everyone becomes rude. To sort of step back when someone is percieved as being rude-even if that is not their intention- and still treat the person with courtesy is I think a hallmark of a really enlightened person(though they might just go off too). Adyashanti says in one of his talks how it's sort of easy to love someone you like. Can you still love and have compassion for someone you don't like? I don't think Buddhas or Bodhisattvas are saying I don't like that person, he is rude and can go to hell. If you deal with someone you deal with them. Otherwise I think it's better just to leave them alone. Really, I have to think if your going to live a real Buddhist lifestyle which says to do no harm or whatever, then if you arent going to contribute to another's happiness it's best to just leave them alone.(easier said then done of course) We all have a kind of gut knowing about other poeple, but it's easy to turn away from that and get into this egoic my way of thinking is better than your way of thinking crap. It's such a huge problem in the world. And so basic. I do it myself. But hopefully can improve a little day by day. Ime not interested in adding to the conflicts, we have enough of that already. Cam edit-Ime also intrigued by the view of some Advietists that the so called 'controler' aspect of much of lives is pretty limited, or is an illusion, and everyhting more or less just happens if that's how it works, if everything more or less just happens the way it happens then how can thier be any problem with anyone or any thing? I am not completely sold on it. I like to think there is room for some free will. But maybe that's how it really works. Even if you think your imagined self grew up and learned all this stuff and has something valuable to offer or not that's all just the way things happened. Good or bad. And same for others. This seems to open up this tremendous space of acceptance. Also, people will probably be more open to your views if you apprach them with some degree of respect. If you don't care how people feel or what they think than its a mute point. Be as rude as you like of course.

Sounds fun. Good luck with that.

So basically your eagerly waiting for the time machine to be created so you can move backwards and forwards through time and space, yes? *isn't serious*

Can't we also see eternity in a flower? Or in the smile of a beautiful woman? If it's all one then it's all one. The beautiful flower or drinking a cup of hot tea while talking to a friend or the news of another soldier dying also contains eternity. It is so simple it seems ridiculous to talk about. What is in front of us right now must be the truth. How can there be another truth besides what is in front of us right now? Then again, to seek for some truth outside or somewhere is itself grasping at something. Better for me to allow everything to be as it is for awhile and stop giving silly opinions

I hesitate to even discuss this topic because I feel my understanding is very, very shallow. But, something that has been an underlying sense for me for the past decade or so is the truth of oneness also existing in the realm of time and space. So, from one persective. Object A, lets say a tennis raquet, hits object B, a ball, then goes across the court and object C(other raquet) hits object B. This sort of linear A hits B then C hits B back and forth is occuring in a sort of linear time. The different objects have a cause and effect realationship with eachother. From another persective, and I hesitate to talk about it because of my shallow understanding, object A hitting object B hitting object C hitting object A is one shared process. And, I have liked to refer to this in my own understanding as One Time. In this one time the illusion of seperation disssolves as past present and future are seen as one connected and whole process. Also, and again I hesitate, but from the enlightened persective of no self it would seem that there is no seperation of time, no seperation of self and other, cause and effect and all the other million dualities. Thus, life is lived as one time and all time is one shared process. I havent 'figured it out' myself, just something that has been creeping in for the last decade or so. And I could be completely off track on the enlightend perspective stuff. As I said in another thread I would be interested in studying more what enlighted teachers like Dogen wrote about the topic. As well as Taoists of course. And, I also feel even a concept like one time or applying oneness to time are still just so many concepts to be dropped. I don't know that any of these concepts are even slightly usefull when talking about spiritual cultivation or self realization. But the concepts and opinions roll on... edit- If there is really no self where do ideas of a self moving through time, past, present, future, really stand? I ask 'myself' as much as anyone else. The seeking mind seeks something

He's definetly on my top ten list of favorite teachers. His talent in guiding others into the unknown core of themselves is beyond anyone else I have ever met. His real skill becomes clearly evident when you see him work with others in dialougue. However, I havent studied with too many teachers and am always interested in hearing other peoples expression.

We who grew up in Westchester NY don't seperate the words West and Chester like those who grew up in Philla. *sips tea*

I agree about coffee. I have been having a strong cup of coffee every day and really have started to notice not only is the extra energy totally unneccissary for me, but it results in anger. Not so much anger but just a sense of too much energy that has no choice but act out somehow. So no more coffee for me, sticking with green tea..which is a nice level of caffiene for me and doesn't result in any 'frantic' energy. Or decaff coffee occasionally.

Hi Eric. Just noticed your in Phoenix. I live in Scottsdale. PM me if you want. cam

That's a pretty general question. What are you your interests? What area of the country/world? Do you have any career goals or are you trying to figure things out? Of course in general it's probably good to go to the best college you can. If I could do my teenage years over honestly I would have busted my ass and tried to get into a top school. I didn't and am finally just getting my BA this year at age 31. I'll probably keep going and get a masters after that but I would have loved to have had all this done 5 years ago. It's better to get things like school out of the way young IMO. You will have the rest of your life to explore stuff. If you pick the right school probably you can have alot of fun too, no? ps. That said, I think my life has sort of worked out very nicely and I did learn alot of stuff in those years I wasn't going to school. However, I still say get it done sooner rather than later.

Nice! I think this is an excellent response. Ken Cohen says the same thing and he incorporates both Buddhist stuff and Taoist stuff very well. Obviously, the Taoists have there strengths and the Buddhists have there strengths. Why should there be any conflict in combining the two?

Cool. Good luck in your training.

Welcome! I believe the Longmen sect is the same school Ken Cohen was ordained a priest in. He studied with a Longmen sect Taoist Abbot Dr. K.S Wong. Interested to hear anything you have to say.

If your talking about rooting then yes, it's a basic priniciple of internal martial arts. I don't really care to ellaborate too much further. It's best to follow the teaching of a master teacher. My main standing teacher is Ken Cohen. He has written a book on qigong and it has a chapter on standing like a tree. Ime also thinking about studying with a high level internal teacher in Kenny Gong's lineage. But you have to learn that directly from the teacher no real written stuff. Cam

In a sense you can say it's changing but also say it never changes. Sort of like ice and water. Maybe the enlightened mind is more like water. Totally open to all. No self or intention, free flowing to beneifit life however it can. While every day mind is like ice. Stuck in a certain place, seemingly in a solid state. You can say ice realizes it's potential to be water or 'changes' into water. I prefer to say ice just melts to water. So in spiritual practice 'I try' to melt or dissolve all my illusions, ideas, opinions, beliefs and see the ice of ego is also free flowing water. And even if it freezes into ice again it's ok because I know it can also melt into water again. Different states but same essential nature or substance. The question for me still remains even if there is ego is there any reality to it? The enlightened person would say no, there is no reality to ego. So from that perspective nothing changes since the identity of a seperate self that was beleived in doesn't really exist anyway outside of mental mis identification or ignorance. But you could probably even still say that's a change in awareness if you prefered, even though it feels more like recognition to me.

Everything mentioned. Specifically, for me lately it is seeing how deeply I can sink and let the ground support my structure. Even when you understand this intellectually it's different when you start to actually get it. I see it as connecting with deep, natural inner potential that isn't based on muscular strength but mind and intention. Even though I have been practiicng a few years I am still a total beginner. I love that there are practices like these that are literally "lifetime" practices. I could probably stand for 20 years and still always find something new and fresh about it and still sink or let go more deeply.