Cameron

Ok, at this point it seems where this is leading is there is a time to lead/guide and a time to follow/watch your mind. That's what Ken Cohen says. Emptiness practice should be the foundation but energy practices can be good too so that works.

It should be added that Bodri/Nan are strong advocates of celibacy and I think a good part of "what get's things going" in their view is combining empty mind with celibacy/retention. In other words it's the retention of jing combined with empty mind that opens up the channels naturally and without force of mind(as seems to be done with some qigong). Other teachers that teach this as the main practice but not much emphasis on retention and things like that seem to be saying it's your tension/mind/control/not allowing things to flow etc that causes stagnation in the first place so practicing is like letting go of a tightly held hose where the water is built up already or something. Some energy practice based stuff seems to be saying there isn't enough water to begin with and that water needs to be guided through the channels with the mind and it doesn't know where to go on it's own. I think that might be the fundamental difference. That the energy in your body doesn't know exactly where to go when you let go enough to let it vs. your ego somehow deciding what's the best place to guide energy or focus it. Probably the truth lies somewhere in the middle of course.

Hi hugo that is great and one of the points I wanted to discuss exactly. That doing empty mind/vipassana/zen etc where you basically "get out of the way" may be far better than methods where you supposedly lead the energy with your ego or your intention. I think it goes back to what we talked about earlier in the thread maybe if you have a very strong foundation in stillness you develop the wisdom to help the energy along but if the energy knows exactly what to do when you get out of the way where is this person that helps things along? It just striked me as a fundamental difference of philosophy about what cultivation is. One seems to be about lessining the ego to where nature is allowed to do what is natural for it to do. The other about manipulating and controlling energy flows in the body. Perhaps, at very least, people should develop wisdom from stillness meditation first before thinking they can manipulate energy flows as a practice. Maybe someone from the other side and strong believer in energy practices being ok before a strong empty mind foundation can say something here.

I don't necissarily mean follow what he says to a T per se but more agree with what he says about the inferiority of energy practices to empty mind. From what I understand vipassana is a very serious empty mind path. One of our posters here, smile, I think did a retreat and mentioned it was like all day sitting for 10 days. I am just intent on sitting once or twice a day but really integrating it into my life long term and making it something that is balanced into my life. Maybe do a week long retreat in the future. At this point my guess is at very least you should have a firm foundation in empty mind before starting energy practices. My guess is the majority of people here either include some quiet, non conceptual sitting into their qigong routines or are far into the energy practices already and developing wrong views about cultivation. At very least I would think a strong empty mind component should be included and it seems most people agree with that.

Nice to meet you too

Am I right to say your position is like the I Ching, there is a time to lead and there is a time to follow? From that perspective energy practices could be considered leading and empty mind type practice following. Ive got a refinement of what I am asking do you think many(most?) people in beginning stages of practice don't have the wisdom/insight to do the leading part and should focus more on the following? My take on empty mind practice is by letting go you actually allow the inherent wisdom of the body mind to do whatever it needs to do. By leading you use your ego or intention to try to make things happen. But do most people really have the wisdom and insight to correctly make these things happen? Or is the beginner pracitioner who is trying to move energy along certain meridians or do energy practices to open channels deluding themselves? Perhaps someone who has done empty mind practice for years and progresses in that is at a place where they can begin real qigong/nei kung practice and starting them before that point is premature? I remember reading someone say you shouldn't even think about doing nei kung or alchemy formulas etc until you can do empty mind for 4 hrs. Still, your position seems to be there should atleast be an equal balance of both stillness practice with any qigong type of practice. That still seems pretty balanced. So, as the original question asked, does anyone agree with Bodri or more along the lines of my friend who's name I can't pronounce saying to balance both types of practice? Cam

Hmmm. I am not so sure about Bodhidharma. From some accounts the methods he taught the monks are more like excercise. In any case a person like that has so much legend built around him it's hard to really say. Zen Buddhists say he was a Zen patriarch in direct lineage from Buddha. A Lei Shan Dao/David Shen student mentioned here he was actually one of the highest masters in that lineage etc. Anyway, I am not talking about excercise which of course everybody needs some of but the energy practices such as those I mentioned. Practices based on moving energy in the body, building energy to achieve some goal(tan tien, building more qi, becoming more powerful, becoming immortal etc). I don't really mean health excercises. So let me clarify I mean energy based practices such as those mentioned that seem to have a strong identification with certain types of energy or energy lineages(Healing Tao, Lei Shan Dao, Kunlun, Wudang, Tien Shan, Water Method etc.) BTW if practitioners of any of those don't consider their practice energy based but working more with mind by all means say so. It just seems what people into those practices end up with is strong identification with the energy or results of the practice rather than what Bodri/Nan, Zen teachers and Advaita teachers seem to be speaking about. In other words, a potential sidetrack. I could be wrong. Interested in hearing others views. Cam

Adyashanti said when you meditate think of it as entering a tomb and preparing for death. I liked that alot. When I sit Adya style now I think of that and it adds another dimension to sitting.

Hope it's a good one bro.

I remember asking Mantra68 about Kunlun level 2 and he said it was very hot. Also, I believe if you read the book it actually says level 2 kunlun is kan and li. Or mixing level 1 and level 2 is kan and li. Max teaches another practice at the workshop called Red Phoenix. He says combining K1 and RP gives you all you need from a spiritual development standpoint. Max taught us a way to combine K1 and RP together which seemed to blend the two into one practice. From my experience it appears once you get the Max practices going it's all very spontaneous and goes by itself. Even RP, which from the outside appears to be a fire practice, is very yin and flowing the way Max teaches and transmits it. And yes, Mantra68 would know much more about this.

It's very powerful. Hard for me to describe since I feel I am in the middle of an intense alchemy process with it but it feels like it really transmforms you at a deep level. And from what I have experienced so far Max's knowledge is really,really high. Do a workshop if your drawn to it. He also does free talks the night before his workshops so you can meet the teacher and ask questions before going if you want. Cam ps. Oh, instead of just searhcing for Kunlun I would reccommend you go over Mantra68's posts. There is a feature where you can read all of a member's posts in chronoligical order if you go to his screename and click it and then click on the more options link at the right. Mantra68 is one of Max's top students and has already written alot about Kunlun here. Would be better to research what he has written for the best answers.

Wow. And here I thought a PS3 was cutting edge.

No, he's up there. Around 75 years old.

Interesting. So after RP you don't consciously direct energy down to the navel area the way Max teaches but sort of let the energy flow where it wants to? Or your saying "letting go" basically takes care of everything?

Cool. Do you do grounding heavily afterwards? Max told me if you do Red Phoenix and don't ground alot you can go crazy!

Probably the main thing I learned is the foundation of the meditation he teaches. To let everything be as it is. Beyond right and wrong and human confusion and suffering there seems to be this realm of resting, or abiding, the simple teaching I remember Adya bring up alot was to "stop". Sailor Bob says "full stop". My limited understanding of this is to allow your whole train of ego to come to a full stop and allowed to be. Stop fighting reality etc. I don't think I plumeted the depths with Adya. I went pretty deep with another female teacher of the same strain of teaching. I was going pretty deep with that, but switched gears studying with another teacher which I feel has set me on another interesting type of course. Adya sells copies of his retreats on his site, best thing to do would be get a copy of a retreat if your intrested, there only a fraction of the cost of going to a retreat and give you a good glimpse into his teaching.

btw, I edited it in my first post to say belly and heart rather than tan tiens. I prefer to use normal language. Opening the belly, diaphragm etc. To work heavily on 3rd eye/niwan development before the belly is opened up is silly imo. The beauty of kunlun is it works at opening everything at once in a natural way.

Ditto. When I do Red Phoenix I quickly experiences this area. I think Max refers to it as the Wisdom Eye. No idea if this is what xeno is referring to. I don't consider opening the wisdom eye or having a crown chakra experience near as important for me at this time as opening the belly and heart. So the emphasis on this doesn't vibe with me at this point. As Mantra68 said, Kunlun opens up all the energy centers, so this would obviously include energy centers in the head. Cam

I experienced, and continue to experience, alot of things from studying with Max. Money doesn't really enter into it, I consider the whole bunch friends at this point. You should do a workshop before you dis Max or the practices he teaches. They are going to be in NJ in May, isn't that your neck of the woods? If you really want to talk about CCO instead of gettiing upset why not go to Healingdao.com? You realize HT has it's own discussion board right?

Since your in Australia you can also check out Sailor Bob. Student of Sri Nisragardatta(sp?) I think him and Adya are pointing to the same thing. Better hurry though he is getting old!

After my first Max workshop I more or less felt like I was tripping on drugs for about a month. I didn't sleep and was having all sorts of intense upper tan tien experiences. I didn't experience anything like that with HT methods though others experience might be different.

I was pretty into Adya as well as other teachers along the "advaita" stream. Going to satsangs etc. I basically feel like I got hit by a train after I met Lama Dorje and have trouble even remembering other teachers I studied with or my experience with them now though

Ok,cool, let's not turn the fitness thread into the standing thread

He teaches specifically to have the middle finger touching the leg, where the seam of your pants are, not the whole hand. Cam

I find combat conditioning helps my muscles relax. Kettlebells made me tight though. Sonnon's stuff is neat, but I like cc better.