Cameron

During satsang last weekend I kept trying to fill truth "what is" with concepts. "So it's like acceptance of everything", "It's this..it's that..blah,blah,blah". My teacher said "Not even that". My ego was squirming. And that's exactly what I wanted.

It's a fun topic. I say have fun with it either way..don't take yourself or life too seriously. I think the Taoists have a great attitude about all this stuff and recognize humans desire for good furtune,long life,success etc along with cultivating the way for spiritual liberation and enlightenment. balance..balance..balance.

Ok...big issue..Free Will. Do you think it is real? Pretty much the central issue I see between what teachers like Adyashanti, Sailor Bob etc and teachers like those on "The Secret" don't have in common is the whole free will thing. Oh, alot of the talk besides that is similar. It's "all one"..we are all "energy"..it's all good..but the difference is one camp says there is no self and this free will business is just a thought in your head. It's like you think your driving the car only to realize the car is driving itself, always has driven itself, always will drive itself. You just need to slip into the passenger seat..relax into what is..enjoy the ride. The other camp is very much a believer in the driver of the car. You are the designer of your life. You manifest what you want..whether it's the car,the house,the hot girlfriend/boyfriend. This is founded on the idea that the driver(self) exists directing the experience of life and making choices that may or may not benefit that life. The no free will camp says choices are an illusion. It's basically the thought/idea that there is a you in the first place that makes choices that is the illusion. There is no self. There is no controller. You just think there is. So let's talk about this whole free will thing. Be honest if you don't know just say you don't know. I don't know but am leaning heavily towards this whole no free will thing. Which is bad news for the ego.

I realize for the most part topics like this are beyond conventional style online chat. I do appreciate you all giving your best shot at it though. Sitting with an awakened person yesterday I realize the essence of what wants to be communicated goes beyond the words themselves. What an awakened person communicates is mind to mind,heart to heart. Most of these concepts gets thrown in the trash. Namaste, Cam

More than a few have already appeared. But it's up to each individual to engage the process or not. Probably most people don't want enlightenment and I think that is probably totally appropriate. My gut says none of us can hold out forever, but as Adyashanti says some people can hold out for a damn long time(lifetimes..if you beleive in them).

Ime not sure I agree with that. I think the whole physical body thing is kind of important But hey..whatever works!

Thanks. To expand a little on what you said, you need good teachers. I don't care how focused you are for a modern person to have any hope of "Enlightenment" they need to be working with some enlightend teachers. There is what I percieve to be a negative trend here that people with litte knowledge or wisdom should openly give advice on important matters of spirituality. If your interested in enlightenment..find a teacher to help you. Even qigong. I get emails from people here asking my advice on qigong practices. Ime not a qigong teacher. I love qigong and may do a qigong training program at some point but wouldn't consider myself in any kind of postion to speak on enlightenment, cultivation etc. At best I see this site as a nice place for networking and sharing ideas..not a place to be giving anyone advice on what they should practice(Ime not talking about strongly reccomending practices or teachers..that is probably very helpful). Anyway, sorry to go off topic on this thread.

Who asks?

Who knows. Go with you gut!

This is actually very interesting and I think points to the heart of the fear that comes up(for me atleast) when some teachers talk about this no free will business. As if if you let go of your seeming control and let everything be..what you would do is go sit in the corner for your entire life. I mean..what is it that makes us think by giving up our seemingly great control we would just end up doing nothing? In a way it also seems related to the control vs. allow everything to be approach to meditation. The people who want to control everything may think if they give up the control nothing will happen..or whatever...that's just it..YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN. The whole no free will thing doesn't mean your taking a morbid I have no power approach to life(I think) it means your STEPPING INTO THE UNKNOWN..and living your life from that place. All Ime saying(could be wrong also this is the Free will thread and totally up for a good debate) is that no control is reality anyway..you just think reality is in your control. Maybe it is maybe it isn't...the rest of the phenomenal universe besides humans seem to pretty much run itself just fine without this idea of a self in control, but maybe we are special and unique..it's possible your right.

By "ego" I mean a sense of a seperate self that seemingly chooses what it wants or doesn't want. Ime not saying the thoughts that there is a seperate self that seemingly chooses what it wants or doesn't want doesn't happen. Ime saying it does happen..most people live and die there entire life believing in it..but it's all an illusion(possibly). This perspective..sounds absolutely ridicoulous to the ego identity and if your not "awake". And let's face it. No one on Taobums is even close to being enlightened so we are mostly just giving our opinion on what we "think" is true..which is mostly more illusion. But I still think it's interesting enough to get feedback on. Even if it is feedback from dream characters who think they are real

I agree it's probably not a simple yes or no answer. But in a way it is. When I stumble on this sense of "not knowing"...of being open to the possibility that there is no self and thus "no controller" it takes my mind to a deeper place. But perhaps people from wisdom traditions such as Buddhism or Taoism might say there is no controller or decider but there is the deeper aspect we might call "spirit" or "prajna wisdom" or "awakeness". This awake presence is "self so". This aspect of life Sailor Bob calls "intelligence energy". The whole universe runs itself. The sun doesn't will itself to shine, flowers don't will themselves to bloom, it's all natural. Only us human beings have this cognizing ability and all of our emotional states to imagine a self in control and behind the wheel steering all of this. And let's face it. People love the idea of a self that is in control and steering what is. We all(for the most part) cherish this seperate self and compare it to other selves to see how "successful" we are. We compete, work our asses off, to accomplish things and then turn around saying "look at what I have done". Could you imagine one of the really "successful" people in the world, a worldy success like Bill Gates or Oprah or Bill Clinton or whoever, saying "I really don't have anything to do with this, it's all just what arises and happened on it's own". No! We love the idea of a controller or a director. It may not be as cut and dry as saying there is no free will and no director and it's all just a big make believe show we are playing. But my guess is that is closer to the truth than the dream land of ego's in control the world is in. Happy to hear others opinions though.

edit.

Father P is Adveita all the way...even if he chooses not to use that label. Ime listening to the last Adyashanti intensive and he has a funny expresison for the ego. He says the ego is like the matador and enlightenment is like when the bull stops chasing the cape. What happens to the macho, imposing matador character when the bull stops chasing his cape? The matador(ego) stands there looking like a silly guy in tight pants holding a blanket. How about if the bull keeps chasing the matador? He gets skewered by the sword.

Ok..nice replies..to sum up for myself..real awakening "overrides" any desire you might have. So for the most part, awakened people don't sit around thinking "I want,I want,I want" etc. There is nothing wrong with that..what "The Secret" talks about..but basically all the desires or manifestation of desires in the world don't compare to authentic awakening(my guess). So basically..regardless of whatever else I do in my life..awakening will remain the priority. Glad we had this thread/chat! Cam

Wow..Yoda is so wise. So basically..if you can help me sum this up for future generations of seekers..Adveita..aka AWAKENING..is where it is at. But if you want to hold on to the idea of a seperate self then LOA is where it is at..so you can be successful in the dream state(of seperation where seperate self needs xyz to feel complete). Correct?

Ok! How is your health these days?

Not sure exactly what you meant there LOA is about attracting what "you" want to yourself. Whether that means a realationship, the perfect job, financial freedom, sucess etc etc. I think it has a positive message. I guess my only "issue" is I have been studying Adveita like stuff and LOA together and you couldn't get two more different messages. In a nutshell Adveita says you don't really exist. When people would ask Ramana Maharshi a question he would sometimes respond "WHO is asking the question?" It says the imaginary false ego is just basically a conception in mind..not the truth. LOA basically supposes you do exist. I mean they have some talk about everything being energy and "you are an energy field within an energy field" but it's based on the belief of a seperate "I" that wants stuff. One of the big messages in Advieta is you really have little to no control. Things happen the way they happen. LOA says you have damn near complete control. YOU decide what YOU want. You sit down..use your imagination and basically add positive feeling and emotion to attract to you the things you feel will bring happiness to you..like a magnet. So yeah, maybe there is no real issue. It just seems the fundamental difference in what Adveita and other spiritual teachers are saying and what LOA is saying is different. I don't really have a problem with it.

No, I am not saying that I would rather play in the dream than wake up. Ime saying it might be useful to have fun playing in the dream if you haven't woken up yet. There is a difference! So no one else wants to say anything about this besides our resident hardcore advietist?

Ok..my last 2 cents on this. If your awake/enlightened etc you probably are in a space/awareness where it's not a priority to manifest/achieve what 'you want'. For all of us that aren't there yet, getting what you want and manifesting what you want is a big deal..in a fun way. I could easily be wrong on this and maybe LOA and awakening will meet down the road and just be seen as nothing special, how the universe operates, 'what is'. Well, have fun in either case!

I think the Secret is an inspiring movie and can have a positive effect. I am sort of in the process of really using the knowledge for the first time this year. I mean, I learned everything in the Secret years ago from other sources but just got "attracted"(don't shoot me for saying attracted..LOL) to it again recently. Talk to me in a few years and I'll let you know if LOA really,really,really worked for me or not. I think it will. Cam

Yes, I did a weekend workshop with David last year on Flying Star .To be honest I havent really gotten into it but I have this big book from the workshop I'll probably study one of these days. You can get his take on Feng Shui, Astrology and Alchemy in the book 'Treasures of Tao'. I think he also does a week long retreat at Michael Winn's Heavenly Mountain retreats. Cam

I think there are some texts and teachers who would basically agree with what Taomeow is saying. I know David Twicken talks about the early heaven realm as being 'The mysterious mother' that gives birth to the 10,000 things. But in another place he calls it the godly realm that creates. I was recently listening to an Adyashanti talk where he talks about Genesis. First there was silence..or first there is Tao..which moves and creates everything..yin/yang..the 10,000 things. My guess is the primordial void that either "birthed' or "created" everything is beyond male or female..but I guess you would really need to return to the origin to know. Ime too busy having fun in the manifestation for now to worry about it

Pretty amazing athlete! link