Creation

That isn't the whole book. The full course can be found here; I don't think you can get the book separately: http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/damo-qigong-home-study-course I've been hoping for a while that someone around here would give this course a serious shot and review it for the rest of us. They also offer retreats: http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/workshops-2010-overview

Funny you should mention that Buddhist creation story vortex. The views I expressed about the role of consciousness in evolution and spirits wanting to incarnate in bodies to a large extent came from my reading of that exact story (not from the Book of Mormon, if you are reading this Blasto ). I personally did not read "aliens" into that story, even though it mentions beings from another world, because the the modern western concept of other planets and aliens (that you see in, say, sci-fi and conspiracy theories) is so very different from the view of other worlds and their inhabitants in the ancient Indian culture of the Buddha. As what thelerner quoted pointed out, in Buddhism there is a concept of a world of pure spirit where immaterial beings inhabit. The story seems to say that when another material planet died, it's inhabitants had sufficient merit to reincarnate as such a pure spirit world, but still needed to work out karma in a material realm. I read the story to say that this is was what provided the initial causal impetus for the evolution of life on this planet. So there you have a teleological explanation (which I think is necessary once consciousness comes into the picture) that has nothing to do with a supreme creator deity. Brilliant! But note that it was not like aliens rode their spaceships to earth. There was no transfer of bodies from one planet to another, just spirits, and this spiritual transfer is what catalyzed the evolution of life on this planet, so that said spirits could incarnate in bodies in accordance with their karma. What a neat story.

I'm enjoying you posting in the role that you are in, dear Wang-Mu. So I played a supporting role, viz. the scholar.

Justinian did not ban reincarnation; he had the belief in reincarnation declared heresy. He imprisoned Pope Vigilius because Vigilius would not sign the declaration condemning Origen of Alexandria as a heretic. Origen was considered to be the greatest of the pre-Nicean Church Fathers and his writings were very highly respected by many, including Pope Vigilius. It is speculated by some that Justinian wished to install a belief in eternal damnation rather than the various forms of belief in reincarnation and universal salvation that many Christians (like Origen) once believed for political rather than spiritual purposes, i.e. control. Speculation about the initial impetus aside, the reason that such harsh measures were taken to stamp out heresy, as with Constantine before him, and with so many others in the history of Christianity, was that the theological unity of the Christian Church directly affected the political unity of the empire. With the coming of the barbarian threat, the theological unity of the Church also directly affected the Empire's ability to defend itself (i.e. survive) both via the force of political unity and the force cultural unity. And so the precedent of "stamping out heresy is a matter of life and death" became deeply ingrained into the collective psyche of Christian leadership, eventually leading to things like the Inquisition, etc., and then the reaction of the splintering off of tons of different denominations. That is, in my view right now at least, the main driving factor in "how Christianity go so messed up".

First I've heard of this part of the system. Had to look it up: lying on the belly?

Hey Seth. I'm only just beginning to get a small inkling of why Gift of the Tao is so special (I'm really quite dense...) If you try it out, make sure to really tune into the energies around Michael in the DVD and tune into the energies around, above, and below you when you practice and see what kind of effect the moves have. I'll be curious to hear what you experience. I am very curious about my dan tian too: elusive portal, cauldron, and center. As I'm sure you know, a big part Stillness Movement is meditating on dan tian, so that sounds right up your alley, though it is a ways to travel (though if you are ever in Missouri I want to meet you!). I also really like the Golden Flower mudra from the Kunlun book. If you are curious about Clyman, all of his book is on the web except for the section with detailed practice instructions (what he calls "chi kung" I think qualifies as neigong): http://www.okolo.org/chikungbible.pdf I gather that his system mostly consists of variants of condensing breathing and various qi circulations put together in a very nice package.

Hi Seth. Part of the confusion is the fact that two teachers saying they teach neigong do not necessarily have the same definition of the term. One book on Bagua I read defined neigong as the component of training dealing with the small muscles, soft tissue, etc. which allowed one to develop power that did not come from muscular strength. This is what one might call a "gross" type of neigong. Guys who are into Mo Pai, etc. define nei gong to mean filling the dan tian, compressing qi, etc. This is a subtle kind of neigong. Others use neigong in contradistinction to qigong, saying qigong uses external movements, whereas neigong is done in stillness, or qigong uses visualization, breathing, etc. to move qi whereas in neigong you manipulate qi directly. And then there is Bruce Frantzis' very general definition, which involves learning to control pretty much every aspect of the physical body and qi directly, which he breaks in 16 parts (breathing, alignments, soft tissue, opening and closing, moving energy, absorbing and projecting energy, spiraling energy, dissolving, manipulating meridians, working with the aura, working with the spine, working with the lower dan tian, working with the middle and upper dan tian, working with the left right channels, working with the central channel, and integration). So which kind are you interested in?

I just looked at this thread for the first time. It was even worse than I expected. A brief skimming suggest to me that this thread is one giant troll-feeding zoo. I4L is trolling (and probably doesn't even realize it) and people are feeding him with their anger, ridicule, insults, etc. It "feels" very similar to Vajrahridaya troll feeding threads, even though the issues are different. Does this not suggest that this problem is not the intellectual issues (whether it is Buddha vs. Tao or I.D. vs. Darwinism), but the tendency toward emotional reactivity? I would like to thank Apech for bringing his sensibility to this thread. I would also like to thank Blasto for posting the Discovery Institute's charter. Scary stuff. My impression of it is that it is creating a false dichotomy, where there are Theists and Atheists/Materialists, whose views about things are very well defined and opposing, and there is no middle ground on any of the issues. Blasto pointed this behavior out in I4L, a very astute observation I must say, and I agree completely that it is a major impediment to moving forward. But let's remember that this behavior happens on both sides. Look at Richard Dawkins going around calling religion a mental disorder. Talk about "no middle ground"! Which brings me to: Jetsun, I submit that this is precisely what will make the problem worse. It just causes more polarization which gives more fuel to each side's propaganda machine. It's just like how people work: when someone represses childhood memories, the negative emotions and beliefs that came from that memory resurface later in life as irrational destructive patterns of thinking and behavior, and they try to repress and control those, then more pop up, etc. The same reactionary impulse to repress is happening here (on both sides) and indulging it will do nothing but prevent the actual wound in our collective psyches from being healed.

Also, the more of your own conditioning you have dropped, the better you will be at spotting the ladies who have dropped theirs. You know, the ones that Non denies even exist, even though they are right in front of his face on this forum.

Thanks for sharing your research Iskote. I also find Liao's stories about the history of what he teaches to be quite suspect, and find the high prices and thin (compared to the things he writes about) content of his DVDs to be disappointing. But I really got a lot out of his books. Honestly though, there are other teachers who tell stories that the skeptic in me has a field day with, but who have undeniable skill and whose books I treasure. I've gotten pretty used to it. I also agree 100% with this statment:

Since both myself and Non are men, I only gave that side of the story. But I did not mean to say it's all up to men. Just "this is what men like you and I can do to begin to make it better, better, better, better, better, BETTER, YEAHHHHH! Nah, nah nah NAH NAH NAH NAH, nah nah nah nah, hey Non!" It would be awesome if women would do this work as well, and indeed if both sexes supported each other in it. That's the kind of woman I want to be with

True story, I was reading Park and Miller's "Fundamentals of Pa Kua Chang" and within the first two chapters I thought "This Dan Miller fellow has studied advanced mathematics." Turned to the back of the book and sure enough, B.S. in Mathematics. How did I know? Ordinary people do not ever use the term "combinatorial". Similarly, ordinary people do not demarcate certain statements as lemmas when discussing attraction or use the term "hidden variables". Ever.

Hmmm...That is probably accurate as far as how it works in most "normal" American social circles today (and perhaps other Western cultures, I don't know). But what if the way gender dynamics operate in America today is almost completely based on social conditioning, with only the slightest vestige of natural sexuality/gender polarity remaining, but since we are all so conditioned we cynically say "Of course it works this way, it's how we are biologically programmed"? For example, money is a social construct, so it cannot be "natural" for women to be attracted to money. It is social conditioning, actually for both sexes: money represents something to women, and moreover men with money feel differently about themselves than men without money. But since sexuality, at its root, is natural, not conditioned, if a man feels the way men with money are conditioned to feel about themselves (you are important, you are a success), and moreover he has what women are conditioned to believe money represents (social power, etc.) then the attraction will still be there. At least I suspect so. What if when a man learns to shake off his conditioning and get in touch with his natural masculine sexual polarity, the "way attraction works" completely changes? Because he will then activate women's natural sexual polarity, which lies dormant underneath all the conditioning? And deep down women really really want a man that can do this? (BTW the trained eye can spot a mathematical physics enthusiast from a mile a way )

All of this I can relate to. This, however: gets me curious. But what is probably more important, how to get to the point where quick purging is even an option? How to release the huge amount of energy that invested into holding on to and covering up all the awful stuff that's down in there, completely preventing you from healing?

I might know a little about that...

So the psoas has been mentioned in regards to this work, but what if there is trauma stored in say, your hand or foot? Would Berceli's techniques help release that?

Well, my body said no because I was unable to do it without mental tension, and any chi manipulation, but especially compressing, with a tense mind is stupid. Now, even if this was not the case, there is the issue of what do I really need to be doing right now, and yes indeed compressing chi into the bones is not it. But generally speaking, I am interested in bone techniques as a way to get in touch with, purify, and tonify the water element. I have been been sticking with bone awareness and gentle bone breathing. Did you have a particular body part in mind that you were thinking of?

That's what I'm wondering. The ones you mentioned are the only ones I own. I have been tight on money so I haven't wanted to buy anymore unless I knew what they had on them. The ones I mentioned in my first post seemed like they might have neigong, especially "How to Locate the Dan Tian", so I was hoping someone who had seen them could say. Dorian still hasn't said exactly which of them he has seen.

You mean Clyman's version of condensing I presume? Has anyone had similar experiences with Liao's method? Because in his book he does not mention sucking in from outside the body. The method he described sounds like a cut and dried bone marrow qigong method to me. Maybe the sucking happens automatically? My body says no to trying to compress anything into my bones at this point, so I wouldn't know. I suspect Clyman modified the practice to do two things at once: get more chi and compress it to get jing, seeing as he was trying to make a self-contained qigong system with no fluff and no prerequisite tai chi training. I'm curious, how much did you train to get the results that you got, and what were the circumstances surrounding your "losing it"? And can you still suck in chi, just without all the dramatic sensations, or do you really feel like you can't suck in chi anymore. Because all the dramatic sensations could have been blockages clearing, and when you got more clear, they went away.

I have these DVDs and I don't recall them containing anything that I would classify as neigong. It's been a couple years since I watched them though.

Here you speak as if you know the true meaning of condensing, yet in other posts you are trying to find more information on it. In particular, what is on "How to Locate the Dan Tian"? I was curious if it goes into detail about this type of thing:

Interesting thread, guys. Though I could do without the drama. Finding Master Liao's book Essence of Tai Chi at the campus bookstore was the catalyst for turning me from a dabbler in Tao Te Ching and a little Tai Chi to someone who seriously wanted to learn Taoist cultivation. And Nine Nights is absolutely wonderful. So I have a lot of respect for Master Liao. Has anyone else noticed that the condensing breathing exercise in Master Liao's Tai Chi Classics / Essence of Tai Chi is, technically, a different exercise than what Clyman teaches? Clyman's description of what you to is create an "internal vacuum", sucking in energy from all directions into the imaginary "center line" of the limbs and torso, and also the spine and dan tian. Liao's description of the exercise, as far as I understand it is you take the chi that is already in the body and squeeze it into the bone marrow of the entire skeleton. They might both have one particular effect of creating jing, but I am a technical details kind of guy and the technical details are totally different. I would be curious if anyone can clarify this for me. Also, if anyone is interested in Clyman's stuff but finds it too pricey, check this out: http://www.amazon.com/Chi-Kung-Bible-Self-Help-Mastering/dp/1460938267 As far as Master Liao's stuff goes, it seems pricey to me as well: $50-$100 for 30-60 minutes per DVD, and it is not completely clear how much actual neigong is on them. This has always been kind of a bummer to me. At least with Clyman's stuff you know what you are getting. (What a very Western attitude ) "Why the Dan Tian is the Center of Moving Meditation", "How to Locate the Dan Tian", "Advanced Principles of Moving Meditation", "How to Clean Your Energy", and "How to Restore Your Life Energy" seem to have some neigong from the descriptions, but who knows how much Master Liao actually gives away. If anyone has any of these DVDs and could give a review I would very much appreciate it. Dorian, take note, the description of How to Restore Your Life Energy mentions a form of condensing to create jing.

Rewinding a bit here... I doubt that she was intentionally projecting qi from her upper dantian. She probably just discovered one day that she had the ability to "sense" people (very useful for a hottie I imagine) with no idea of the underlying energetic mechanics or effects on the other person. I wonder what she would have said if you would have asked what her experience of what she was doing was, how she learned to do it, etc.? How had you been doing it prior to this? -- Re 2nd chakra and libido: A model I have heard that matches my experience is that the 2nd chakra governs basic social needs (which you seem to have confirmed as well) and sensuality, like enjoying the feel of the breeze on your skin, the touch of another person, or performing graceful fluid movements. So someone might experience this as more or less connected to sex drive, depending on how they express their sexuality.

I remember the first time I realized that I was making a psychic connection to a girl I was fantasizing about while masturbating. YIKES! (I even remember who I was fantasizing about.) I think that was what started me on the path to cull my sexual fantasies. But sexual fantasy has been a major part of my life since I was about 4 (not kidding). So I have been taking the slow and steady route, bringing more mindfulness into the patterns that I run, trying to really get to the root of my behaviors, and gradually bring myself to a more virtuous expression of my sexuality. Some of my preliminary notes, certainly subject to revision: 1. The ability of a person to make a psychic connection through an image, etc. takes psychic energy. Most people do not actually have the psychic energy to make a substantial connection through an image or some such. It seems to me that the actual impact an average person's sexual fantasy on the object of said fantasy would be minimal unless they already had a strong connection to that person. Mostly they will be connecting to their own thoughforms and projections (I imagine this is related to what Jetsun was saying). But cultivators and natural psychics beware! With more power comes more responsibility. 2. The intrusiveness of a fantasy will depend on the intensity with which the person is concentrated upon. It's like zooming in on a person, a psychic laser beam. OTOH, if you are not really concentrating on that person, their image just helps you connect to your own sexual feelings, then there is much less of an exchange. If I am using a mental image, though, I almost automatically "zoom in", so be careful! Ideally I wouldn't need an image of another to connect to my own sexual feelings, but I'm not there yet. There is a certain degree of compulsion present there as well, which I am working on letting go of. 3. At some point I realized it sometimes happened that a woman I was fantasizing about was saying "No" psychically. Another YIKES moment for me. Or rather an aghast "Oh no, what have I been doing" moment. But I also understood that consent can be given psychically as well. I just have to remain sufficiently sensitive and back off if I get a "no." Well, fast forward, and after a very interesting period of exploring the fantasy question, recently I have decided that it is really a waste of my psychic energy. Now it's just a matter of letting go of the old habits and instilling new ones. Easier said than done. But the fantasy question is part of a larger programme of developing my relationship to my own sexuality and developing a more healthy attitude toward women. Long ways to go yet.

Reading this is what first helped me understand who Mark is, what he does, and what he is all about: http://www.hardlight.org/interview_w_mark.html I had seen videos of him, but after reading that, well, to say that I was impressed is an understatement. I have an enormous amount of respect for him.