Creation

Hi vortex. Ahh, being called to task for posting things outside me ken. I try not to do that anymore, but since the cat is already out of the bag... Unfortunately, not only do we not know the Chinese terms used, even if we did they are technical terms, so if you don't get the lingo you might not see the connection. I have reason to believe from Frantzis' writings that a certain technical sense of xin and a certain technical sense of of shen, as well as a sense of the Buddhist technical term bodhicitta, refer to the same thing, namely a person's innermost core, from which all manifestation arises. These three terms have several different meanings depending on context. I recall posting several times on this in the past. This is mostly speculation on my part, so of course take it as such (not that you need me to tell you that...), but really, it seems very unlikely to me that there is a cutting the root of the mind and a cutting the root of the spirit, both of which are a major culmination of cultivation and have implications for reincarnation, yet are completely different things.

Awesome! Awesome! AWESOME! Thanks Sean and Apech, and of course, Bruce Frantzis.

I received that message too. I promptly addressed said being and said something along the lines of "Please let Robert know that such emails damage his credibility." I wonder if it worked?

Hi cat. Thanks for replying to me. About the sun being male or female, I don't know all the history of who commandeered what when, but I can see masculine and feminine aspects to the sun. I.e. why not have a sun God-Goddess pair instead of one or the other? But I was thinking more along the lines of considering the sun and moon as a male-female pair and deciding which is which. I personally feel the sun to be yang relative to the moon being yin, like the sun resonates with my masculinity and the moon with my femininity. What about you?

As far as I understand Indian thought, Power, energy you might say, the agency of action, has always been considered to be feminine, corresponding to Consciousness being considered masculine. I think this is the root of considering Kundalini to be female. Kali is an interesting lady. She is very un-feminine by social standards. But that is just the point, she is pure power, pure energy, the very primordial essence of all other Goddesses. Still, assigning genders to things is not unambiguous. For example, in some cultures the sun is considered male and the moon female, but in other cultures the moon is considered male and the sun female. And Shiva is considered the lord of dance.

I second this. It would be wonderful if the text of the translations of Master Wang's answers could be posted on say, the Laozi Academy site.

Perhaps authorized may not have been the best word to use but surely you can appreciate the sentiment that neither DragonGateNYC nor your own words should be taken to reflect on Master Wang, because you are not, in a sense, "authorized" to speak on his behalf, but just to promote his teachings? Starjumper took DragonGateNYC's hard-sell postings as reflecting poorly on Master Wang, and I say it is good that he has changed his mind, understanding that DragonGateNYC's words are not in any way coming from Master Wang. And now you have come into this thread, posting with an insulting and condescending tone, and moreover presuming to speak for both Kronos and Master Wang! So, with those things considered, I wish both you and DragonGateNYC the best in you efforts to promote Master Wang's teachings, and to that end I ask you to be mindful of the way in which you do so.

Seth, Thank you for posting this. Posts like the op are the thing that attracted me to this forum in the first place, and they are so very rare these days. One small contribution to a discussion that is over my head is that I found it interesting that when you have such a deep heart centered experience sometimes you ejaculate and sometime you injaculate. For one, I am happy to know that both are "natural" if you are open enough, which makes most of the ejaculate or not debate obsolete. It is just an issue of opening [relief!]. But I wonder, have you noticed and factors that effect which happens? I mainly wonder because of that ever so pragmatic issue of birth control. Also, even though you are capable of achieving this state of openness, I gather that you are not in it every time? What changes? Can you intentionally open, or does it just happen sometimes? Thank you and best wishes to you.

Hi Everything. I know exactly what you mean, and this is an issue very near and dear to me. After all, many great spiritual masters were also great scholars, so studying can't be intrinsically incompatible with cultivation. But what did they know that we don't? How did they engage in scholarship without compromising their flowing with the Tao?

Oh, I forgot to say, isn't that what Namkhai Norbu did with his book Yantra Yoga? So there is some precedent for this even among high level lamas. The questions then become what to teach publicly without prerequisites, and what to put in book for and what needs to be in person etc.

I think it is important to distinguish between the tummo techniqe itself and the larger context of mahamudra practice. Mahamudra is a system aiming at full enlightenment, so of course there are going to be things you do before tummo that are not, strictly speaking, prerequisites for doing tummo, and practices you learn after tummo that build on it, and practices learned after that don't strictly seeking require tummo to perform. With that preamble, I ask, is it so illegitimate to use tummo in any other context than a complete system aiming at full enlightenment in one lifetime? I think it is kind of warped to say if you are not doing tummo as a part of mahamudra it is "just a technique with some benifit." As I understand it, the Taoist view is that not everyone is not here for enlightenment in this lifetime, and those that are aren't any better than those who aren't, so anyone with a use for an energetic practice (that the teacher judges won't abuse or hurt themselves with it) should be allowed to learn it. I suspect the technique for tummo itself, independent of the rest of mahamudra, is not that hard, and does not require transmission or right view or bodhistattva vows or 100,000 prostrations. It certainly requires some preliminary training for safety reasons. But if it has health benefits, benefits for healers, etc., why hold back on using it in that way too, and making teaching available for the technique and the preliminaries for the technique (rather than the preliminaries for the whole mahamudra system)? This is what Taoists did with qigong, and I think a great many have benefited from it. So really I'm espousing a general philosophy of dispensing teachings, not just of tummo specifically.

Not for me! But you have let me see a screenshot of your mind because the timestamp on your quotebox had your local time on it. Now can you guess who I had in mind when I said I wanted to write to my friend? :wub: No promises though.

And so the drive for precision leads to the weaving of webs. To the best of my recollection, the only reason I ever thought that levels 2 and 3 were not from Sifu Jenny was that she said there was a "spiritual" level to the practice, and did not mention a level 2 and 3 of the "physical" level of practice. Now she has clarified that these are two different things, and that there are 3 levels to the physical practice, and their names match the the description of the practices Max teaches to an uncanny degree. Of course, Max could have modified levels 2 and 3, but the root is from Sifu Jenny, or yes, seeing as I don't know for sure, I'm just weaving mental webs of speculation, they could be totally different despite the name issue. I'm content to believe they are the same. Maybe I should abstain from sharing this view with others? After all, me flapping my mouth is what started this. Once I posted something that was speculation based on reasoning I now see to be faulty, and here I wanted to make up for passing my error to others. I could just leave it at that, but someone pointed out that a statement I made in the correction post might be in error, because, hey, how can you know that for sure? So here I am weaving more webs of speculation. He who knows doesn't speak and he who speaks doesn't know. But I don't know even if I don't speak. Thoughts are such slippery things. A delightful fiction that quickly become anything but delightful. Bet you didn't see that rant coming, did you? I need to get my writing juices flowing so I can write to my friends (they have been quite stuck as of late, you see). But I don't want to write a big rant like this... hmmm. Perhaps another post is in order, with a different feel to it? Or a part B to this post. I know! OK here goes. Hi Craig. I like your custom rating system better than the system that allows someone to anonymously give a plus to a one sentence post whose entire vibe is one of intense condescension. Which recently happened in this thread, in case no one noticed. Oh look, now it has two pluses.

Well for some reason or another I find Sifu Jenny's writing to be very profound and illuminating. Perhaps reading the whole sections of her website I linked to would help you understand what she says the goal of Yi Gong is? I just pulled off bits and pieces to address the issue of the components of Yi Gong, not its purpose/goal.

Hey guys. Seeing as I once propagated the confusion that Max made up levels two and three (actually, I may have originated it, I don't remember), I would like to point to what Sifu Jenny has said on the matter. From her website: "Yi Gong is one of the highest Taoist Maoshan esoteric practices. Its system includes two aspects, spiritual and physical. The spiritual aspects have not been revealed to the public. The physical aspects include three levels, the spontaneous adjustment, celestial master points the way, and great water fall. Awareness is the core of Yi Gong practice. Practicing Yi Gong without awareness is not Yi Gong. If you learn the practice and do not develop your awareness, you have lost the essence of Yi Gong." So levels two and three were from Sifu Jenny, but there was a different part of the system that she did not teach Max. Notice also the emphasis on awareness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not emphasized in Max's teachings, what with the whole "watch cartoons when you practice" thing. This always struck me as a major difference in their respective styles of teaching the Yi Gong practice itself. About the spiritual aspect of the practice, she wrote this: "The spiritual aspect of Yigong is important to include when explaining a complete system of this lineage. It plays a very significant roll in distinguishing this lineage from other Taoist schools, but knowledge of the spiritual aspect is not necessary to achieve enlightenment. “Spiritual” may not be the proper word to use here. I reluctantly use the word “spiritual” to differentiate the physical aspect of practice, which I teach, from the the other aspects that involve manifestation and Ling Jie 靈界 (the spirit world). ... That the spiritual aspect of Yigong is important to distinguish this lineage from others, does not mean that the physical aspect is not spiritual, or imperfect, or that level one is lower than level two or that level two is lower than level three. Each level has its own aim. For most people, the physical aspect of Yigong level one is all one needs. It enhances one's health and develops one's wisdom. I am still practicing level one and love to practice level one, because the Spontaneous Adjustment Qigong continuously illuminates me."

They aren't. I'm sure you've noticed that major points on the mco come in front-back pairs, and many are at the same height as chakras. JAJ calls these points the 12 chakra gates. But he doesn't talk about the chakras as yogis do, as energetic structures emanating from the central channel, complete with petals, bindus, correspondences with elements, colors, emotions, etc. Taoists make these same types of correspondences with the 5 zhang fu organs. In a perfect world the chakra system and the organ system would obviously correspond to each other. But, while the ideas about the organs in TCM are very systematized, it seems like everybody says something different about the chakras! If they did correspond, perhaps place on the central channel where the energy of an organ emanates from would be the core/bindu of a chakra, so that the chakra structure and the organ structure would be different emanations from the same root. Then again, there may be no such locations, and I am projecting my ideas about chakras onto zhang fu organs. I wonder.

Hi Kate. You might find this to be interesting reading. http://www.qigongmedicine.com/catalog.php?act=view_prod_info&id_prod=22155

You know, when you speak of "the true dual method" I think, "There is more than one way to skin a cat." Here is a description of a method that do not utilize ejaculation as your method does, but rather non-ejaculatory orgasm: I suspect that this is also a true dual cultivation method. Your thoughts?

I think remember Trunk saying something a while back about how a voting system would have the function of archiving the really good posts for future generations to find. I think that is an awesome idea, but one that would require DISCIPLINE on the part of forum members not to abuse the voting feature. Which, unfortunately, is probably impossible for a forum of this size and growth rate. At any rate, I do not think the "down vote" feature serves any purpose. Best case scenario is that only trolls get down voted, but so what? What would that even accomplish? I was upset to see people down vote others just because they didn't like what was said (e.g. someone down voted Baguakid for saying he didn't get much out of the Chunyi Lin interview. WTF? Is he not entitled to his opinion?), and even worse, the systematic down voting of most of Vajrahridaya's posts, which is just plain childish.

Hi surfingbuddha. Frantzis is not against Taoist sexual practices, in fact he has practiced the crap out them himself. He discusses them in the 2 CD set Chi Gung for the Sexes, in a section of his book The Great Stillness, and in these podcast interviews: http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/230-expanded-lovemaking/episodes/62269-sexual-qi-gong-practices-sexual-vitality http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/230-expanded-lovemaking/episodes/62270-taoist-sexual-meditation-optimize (If anyone know of any other sources of Frantzis' teaching on Taoist sexual methods, please share.) He does not really delve into specific techniques though, probably for safety reasons. Some impressions that I have gleaned from this info: Taoist sexual practices go WAAAAY beyond semen retention. He emphasizes that the real point of sexual practices, from a cultivation perspective, is that they supercharge all other practices, because all your chi becomes so animated and more easily felt and manipulated during sex, and because both partners can use the energy of other plus the interaction at the same time, so each person's meditation can be 4 times as powerful when practiced during sex. He says that in Taoist circles in China, semen retention was used for birth control, and to prevent depletion of the kidneys for those who have a lot of sex. Moreover, I got the impression that there is a water method of semen retention that does not require any muscular force, blocking, etc. but no details, unfortunately. And also he says that those practicing semen retention should ejaculate every so often to prevent the buildup of "dead jing".

I finally figured out how to put what I really wanted to ask here into words: Many Tao Bums resonate with the material in your books yet are also interested in practices that work with Chi and Shen levels, but your books say that this strictly comes after the Jing level practices. Is there any advice you could give to spiritually minded seekers about higher level practices they could safely start on in tandem with the material in your books? Are there any practices you would specifically say to avoid combining with your methods?

Hi Pietro. Nice to see you around. The second two paragraphs of my post were more questions to ask Bruce but I'm glad you chimed in on them anyway. OK, I definitely don't want to step on the Lineage's toes here. What I mainly wanted to know with the name question is "Is Liu's lineage associated with any of the big names of Taoist schools like Zhengyi, Quanzhen, etc.", sort of like a follow up on one of my previous questions. So that would probably be a better thing to ask.

I would like to insert this for maximum clarity on a frequently occurring confusion here on the forum: "Is it that a particular practice is a water or fire method, or is it the system as a whole that is a fire or water method? What in particular makes a method or system water or fire? Are the mixtures?" And I would rephrase this question "How does the Water/Fire school distinction fit in with the modern Zhengyi and Quanzhen sects?" As "How does your distinction of Taoists sects into Water and Fire fit with the historical classification into schools like Celestial Masters, Supreme Clarity, Complete Reality, etc." And I have thought of a couple more questions: Certain aspects of your training, in particular Taoist sexual practices, required a certain communal support. Do you think it will be possible to transmit these teachings into an environment without the same community element? Although Taoist methods are different than yoga methods, do Taoists also utilize the energy yogis call kundalini shakti? What is the Taoist name for this energy and how does the Taoist conception of it differ from the yogic conception of kundalini shakti?

BKF mentioned Kunlun? Did he mean the particular collection of practices that Max has labeled Kunlun, or the cultivation methods originating and practiced in Kunlun Shan? (What the connection between these two is is a mystery...) I would also add to this line of thought is there only one Water Method? Are there other paths that would come under this umbrella besides Liu's lineage? And what is the name of Liu's specific lineage? And seeing as yoga, Tao, etc. follow different principles, to what extent do they have the same results and goals?

Sorry I waited till the last minute to add in my huge list of questions. Here they are: There has been much discussion on the forum on your teaching of water and fire methods. Could you clarify what these mean? In particular, how are fire, wood, etc. energies used in the Water Method? Are there earth, metal, or wood methods? Might a Water Method practitioner have a fiery experience as a result of cultivation? What are the Chinese words used for the Water method and Fire method? How does the Water/Fire school distinction fit in with the modern Zhengyi and Quanzhen sects? Many Tao Bums take an eclectic and non-traditional approach to cultivation. As someone whose path was also quite eclectic and yet still traditional, is there any wisdom you would impart to the modern information age spiritual seeker? Many Tao Bums who resonate with the material in your books yet are also interested in practices that work with Chi and Shen levels. What advice would you give to such seekers? What is the difference between dissolving the physical body and relaxing as understood in the West? Can one dissolve the physical body, or must one be able to feel qi to practice dissolving? What would you recommend as the fastest way to learn to feel qi, so that one can dissolve the energy body? What are your main goals in teaching the Taoist energy arts in the West? Thank you for doing this Sean!