Creation

Thanks for the info MPG. I have heard great things about Bruce's system, but I was waiting to buy Astral Dynamics until the second edition came out. On thing I noticed, though, is that it is substantially shorter than the first edition. Do you know why this is? Also, where did you hear that tidbit about Einstein? That is fascinating! I heard a similar thing about Feynman, but I can't remember where. Some random web site...

mantis, Good luck to you, oh intrepid explorer. Please do keep us posted. By the way, did you mean that you felt the circulation in the lower field to be the opposite direction than the one JJ felt (before reversal)? Did your body tell you that reversing the flow was a good idea, like his did? Do you find that the flow remains reversed, or does it go back when you do not pay attention to it? Mal, I remember Wu Liu was excited about it, but I haven't seen him around in a while. The main reason I haven't tried it yet is because I want to get more straightened out (physically and otherwise) before I seriously try to awaken kundalini. But I admit I also have my doubts that this method is really a good idea for just anybody. That's why I asked mantis the questions I did. For one, Wang Liping says SotGF is an upper dan tien practice, implying that JJ's interpretation isn't really what Ancestor Lu had in mind. More importantly, since reading Deciphering the Golden Flower, I have noticed a few references to the circulation in the lower field by masters that I respect, and nothing is ever said about reversing it. (Though I suppose it could be the big secret that the masters aren't sharing with the commoners ). But to be fair, if your body and higher self say yes, go for it. It sure worked out for JJ.

Tao (of KAP) taught us (on Ryan's promoting) to work on blockages in a very similar way to what Frantzis calls dissolving. This (I think) is what Ryan was referring to when he spoke of "focosing my attention completley on the blockage and becoming the blockage." At least, when Tao was teaching it I was thinking "this is dissolving." Dissolving is not quick, that's for sure. But it is the most safe and sure way to work through a major blockage.

Thanks for that, R.W. I'll take a look at that. I think spinal qigong would be very beneficial for me, which was the main reason I got interested in XSG. Between that and this, http://vimeo.com/5313647 perhaps one can get the the physical aspects of the practice down fairly well? On another note, I recalculated the per day rate for David's latest foundation training seminar and got 367 euro per day. Really, I think that's too much, if I may be so bold.

About the money issue, I usually try to look at the per day or per hour cost instead of the lump sum. The foundation training course was 10-15 days right? So 70-100 euro per day. Compare this to your favorite qigong seminar's per day cost and it's quite reasonable. The question is do you need that 10 days to really learn it. XSG is 30 movements that must be done very precisely. So yes, you probably do. Also, one can ask how much profit DV actually gets. How many here really know how much seminars cost to put on? OTOH, there are other things that he charged more for that did seem quite exorbitant. And really, it is not unreasonable to wonder what he does with all the money. But these questions lead in to rumors and whatnot (shitstorms as joeblast would say). About the practice, I have heard nothing but good things about XSG. I have not heard any reports on SZG, though. Anyone want to give one? The claim, as I see it, is that the XSG and SZG level one combination gets you through the regulating the body, breath, and mind stages of practice which are the foundation for serious inner alchemy. In other words, fully opening up the body (organs, tendons, fascia, joints, etc.) and energy body (channels, vessels, aura) and getting the mind to a state of full control over all of it, and this takes 1-2 years of diligent practice (3-4 hrs per day). I don't think anyone here has done that, but even if they had, how would you get an independent corroboration that you have completed that stage of Taoist practice? But again, it seems clear enough that XSG is a great qigong form. Now, learning this stuff does not require an enlightened teacher. They do this stuff in the deeper levels of IMA. But when you get into this Miao Tong Dao (i.e. enlightenment) stuff, you start to ask, is this person really enlightened? Is this person even trustworthy and of good character? etc. So you open the closet and... It is probably foolish of me to enter into these discussions. But I have read most of the DV stuff on this forum and elsewhere, so I'm taking the opportunity to gratify my need to analyze.

http://www.beawake.net/Miao_Tong_Dao_-_Dav...eAwake.net.html He does not say "come to my seminar and you will be enlightened", and I didn't meant to imply that he did. Look joeblast, I strove to be objective and balanced in my post, and used the preview post feature many times before posting. Half my post was about giving Verdesi the benefit of the doubt, the other half was the other side of things. I am not trying to start a "shit storm." I have revised my first post to be more clear about the transmission and removed the first comment, which was admittedly not in good taste.

Verdesi claims he had a change of heart about the thunder path due to the influence of his Korean Miao Tong Dao teacher, and now concerns himself with enlightenment rather than power. So, what do people who know him say? Rene N., Sean D.,. etc. People on the foundation forum, has there been any change there? Or is he still insulting Wang Liping and bragging about his sexual powers? Ramus, did your break occur with him before or after his "conversion"? Is there ANY shred of evidence that this MTD teacher exists or that any of the over the top stories told about him are true? How can one tell if someone has truly changed? If they have actually and truly reached any level of enlightenment? That they can be trusted to have the student's best interest in mind? These are hard questions. I am eager to hear a report from anyone who attends his MTD seminars. I have often thought that, as Pietro said, Verdesi is on the path and deserves the benefit of the doubt, whatever negative stuff you may hear about him. But that was when he was claiming (more or less) that he could take you through the Entering the Gate and Laying the Foundation stages. Now he is claiming to be able to give a transmission that gives enlightenment [EDIT: of course he doesn't claim to be able to enlighten someone instantly, but that his transmission is a very powerful boost]. If Verdesi wants to up the ante like this, then it would be proper for prospective students to up their standards too. Incidentally, I give B.K. Frantzis the benifit of the doubt, because I consider his books to be a treasure trove of spiritual wisdom. But Frantzis has skeletons in his closed just like Verdesi does. Consider this: Frantzis says that from the time he was a teenager he was obsessed with martial arts: learning how to hurt other people. He traveled around China looking for the best masters to study with. He was constantly challenging other martial artists and caused many people serious injury. He also got involved big time with a Taoist sex cult. People who knew him during that period describe him as an egotistical ass-hole. Then, in his early thirties he met a Taoist master who had a lineage tracing back to Lao Tzu. With this teacher's help, and the impetus from a severe back injury, he eventually achieved a state of enlightenment (The great stillness, cutting the root of the mind, recognition of pure consciousness, there are many names). That sounds freakishly similar to Verdesi's story. Just replace martial arts with thunder path, and no back injury. When Verdesi's prices irk me, I remind myself that if you calculate the per day rate, it is about the same as what Frantzis charges. (Which I think is too much, but I don't know what the expenses are and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt). On the other hand, Frantzis does not market himself as someone who can give you a transmission that gives enlightenment [EDIT: See above caveat] (thought he does say he gives mind to mind transmissions in his seminars), and there are no stories of him disrespecting and slandering immortals . Trust, faith, benefit of the doubt. Choosing a teacher, choosing how to spend a large chunk of money. Separating marketing, fad, and crazy stories from reality. These are highly non trivial issues. Kunlun and Verdesi are both glaring examples of this. At the end of the day, I don't have to worry too much about it because even if I had the money to study with Verdesi, there are expensive programs higher on my list to attend than his (e.g. B.K. Frantzis' summer retreat, Hu Xuezhi's retreat on Mt. Wudang). But I remain very interested in Verdesi and what he teaches.

What results have you or people you know had with this?

Never been to that forum but man, that is hilarious.

Did you read my post? You really have no idea how strong the pressure to conform is academia. You do have something to fear: having your reputation crucified, losing your job, etc. You make it sound so easy. It is not easy for the reasons I posted. It is really hard. Honesty, I am fully confident that science will eventually understand this chi business. That is the faith that I have in science. But it might take a long time (remember my atomic hypothesis example), and I will not refuse to learn something that can help me here and now just because science has not understood it yet.

Seeing as this thread has come back from the dead... That guy, Since Ya Mu was kind enough to dig up some links to some hard data, consider here how your faith in the ability of modern science to find chi if it is real might be distortion of reality. Don't get me wrong, I am a big believer in skepticism, analysis, and the scientific method. But consider... 1. As Ya Mu stated, research that is considered acceptable by modern standards is VERY expensive. Someone like him who pracitces medical qigong for a living with an extraordinary success rate is "anecdotal" evidence. To do it "right" is so very difficult. 2. As I have said many times, a researcher has to have at least a bit of faith in what they are doing before they can really do serious research. But in the present culture of science, anything not agreeing with the current worldview is immediately and loudly shouted down. There are guys who make it their business to get a hold on stuff and "debunk" it. You know, guys like The Amazing Randi or Michael Shermer. I'm sure they do a lot of good, but they also create an environment in which new ideas are dismissed before they can be properly investigated. Then enough people get convinced that something has been debunked and so someone trying to research it gets shunned by colleagues, denied tenure, can't get funding, etc. 3. Consider the foibles of skepticism in the past. Some of the greatest physicist of their generation refused to believe in the ideas of the next generation. Like atoms and relativity. Dalton proposed the first physical/chemical argument for the atomic hypotheses and it took something like 200 years before scientists finally agreed, yes this is correct. The fact is it is extremely hard to change the basic worldview of scientists on a large scale, just like it is for any other group of people. People will find all sorts of excuses to not believe you if they don't want to, and the moment one person tries to break away from the pack they are crucified. Westerner are taught from a very young age that scientists are this model of rationality, nobly pursuing truth with pure objectivity. And that science basically understands all phenomena of physics, biology and chemistry with only a few loose ends to tie up. And that if something is empirically verifiable the enlightened scientists would be the first to know. Having examine the content, history, and philosophy of science, I find these claims to be naive and laughable hubris. So don't hold your breath for scientists acknowledging the reality of chi any time soon, regardless of evidence. It's a sad but true reality. Instead, you could go see someone like Michael Lomax (Ya Mu) who can project chi and see what happens. You might just have to invest some of your time, money, and energy to do so. Are you up to the challenge?

Also, do you have any tips on bringing awareness into a place it has difficulty going that you would be willing to share?

Thanks for the clarification sheng zhen. I was confused because the phrase Structrual Integration implies to me something that a person does to their own body, rather than a bodyworker helping you to integrate your structure. Is there a list of practitioners to browse somewhere?

You have piqued my interest. Would you please elaborate on structural integration (what is it, how is it done)?

Harry, Thank you for such a thoughtful and complete reply. You have given me much to think about and play with. I confess I had a small ulterior motive in asking what I did. All of the things I mentioned that you had insights into were things that I had read in B.K. Frantzis' books that I have very rarely seen anywhere else and never seen all together. Now, I have always thought that BKF's stuff makes more sense than all other popular Taoist teachers put together. But it is not as popular, because most people like fire: I'm going to MAKE this happen (like you said with feeling the belly). So I was very curious when you basically wrote some stuff that could have been straight out of one of his books, since I have never seen you mention studying his stuff before.

Freeform, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. I am quite curious how you came by the insights you have. Such as using awareness to release emotion instead of some kind of technique (so to speak), the different attitudes and states associated with the emotions, the idea of positive, negative and neutral aspects to each organ's associated emotion, the need to focus on the neutral state rather than the positive in order to not just push the negative into a corner, and the idea of "creating space" (upon which I would love it if you would elaborate). Was it a book you read, a teacher you studied with, a practice you engage in, and/or an innate knack for insight? Thanks a lot, Tyler

Hi Zhang. I hope you are well. Stillness, change, emptiness, tension... I don't think stillness and emptiness are synonymous. Emptiness is about lack of OBSTRUCTION, not lack of movement. It's just that it's easier to be empty when you are still. Taoists are all about change. The foundation of Taoism is the Yijing, Book of CHANGES. I presume you are have watched many of BKFs videos on Ba Gua on his youtube channel and have seen him circle walking? The method he teaches uses circle walking with its rapid movements and changes to help access the obstructions that are harder to sense by just sitting. In a sense, tension is necessary for movement. But that term is so ambiguous. Let's say "force" is needed to initiate movement (basic physics). Whereas what you call tension, let's call "obstruction". Proper movement is the result of a net force that is a result of many opposing forces (which is called stress or some such word with a negative connotation in physics, hence ambiguity) like gravity, elasticity of fascia and muscular tension. But this balance of forces can become obstructed, leading to poorly executed movement. Somehow, these principles go all the way up the ladder, so to speak, into energy, emotions, thoughts, etc. I don't know if I said anything new or helpful, or just repeated myself with different words... I really wish I could walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Also, about all this "How do you know if it is really chi" stuff, YOU DON'T. Chi is a word describing certain experiences. How do you know you perceive the color blue the same way others do? It doesn't even matter if you perspective it as a distinct color! This is a problem of perception, which like I said leads to why is anything anything. Just train and see what happens if you want to, and if you don't then don't. But in the latter case you have no business raising a ruckus here.

Yes and one day this will be possible with stuff currently called "chi" IF enough people stop accusing others of being delusional and make a serious attempt to study it scientifically. As for repeatability, the efficiency of medical qigong has been proven by many studies in China. They were willing to put in the effort because they knew if it really worked it would be so much better to use it. Whereas here it would completely screw up the health care that is based on drugs and such. Also, there are more true masters to use as test subjects in China. So what? Qigong masters do this thing called "projecting chi" and it has been shown to be medically effective. But there is as of yet no causal/physical explanation of it. Should we just dismiss it? No! Research it like there is no tomorrow! Getting into problems of perception gets into how does anyone know anything very quickly. Cultivate your own abilities, play and experiment, compare notes with others. The ancient Taoist were empirical. They didn't demand double blind studies with control groups, etc. but they were just as concerned with rigorous understanding of reality as you. What is spirituality? What do you have in mind? What if it is impossible for it to be repeatable, if for no other reason than the human element of YOU have to PRACTICE it, and that is a really hard thing to do? Forgive me for presuming to advise you, but perhaps you need to examine your own definitions and motives. Really, pick up a copy of Mysteries of the Life Force. It is not a bunch of "I heard this master blew up a village with his chi" stories. It is a personal memoir about a Westerner studying Qigong with a master. You will see how this master took precautions against mental wind by not even telling his student what he was doing and what to expect but just "projecting chi" to him while he lied on a table. And he opened his microcosmic and macrocosmic orbits etc. I guess he could just be a total liar, but I think you should read the book and see what you think. And like I said, there is no pressure to try to do anything with chi if you don't believe in it. But I dare you to learn to bring your mind to one pointed focus and feel the insides of your body and see what happens. P.S. I obsessively studied theoretical physics and mathematics for 8 years, and I now find cultivation more fulfilling.

Nice of you to bring this up. Since you have accused us all of being delusional, do you really expect a reasonable answer? But I shall nevertheless try. From whence do you derive your priorities? I.e. that math and physics are important, thing that you deem unscientific are not. Please consider that someone not share that the priorities of current Western intelligence and not be delusional. "The culture that I identify with has the correct priorities and value system" is a common thing, and it is only natural to think other systems strange and backward, but saying "You are all delusional" will never allow you to see beyond your views. Instead, try "I might think my values are basically right, and better than other cultures, but I acknowledge that I don't know everything and can learn from others who have different views than I do." Now if you can do that, read on. You mentioned meditation being useless (if you don't buy into all that enlightenment mumbo jumbo). I counter that learning to bring the mind to single minded focus free from distractions has undeniable usefulness, and also that "mindfulness meditation" based on Buddhist meditation has been found to be useful in treating things like anxiety disorders. You also mentioned that the heart an actual thing as opposed to the heart chakra, and likewise the other organs are more real than other chakras. So your recommendation is to read books about organs? Can you feel you liver? Spleen? Have you considered that learning to feel your organs is more important than reading about their cellular function? That if everyone was actually in touch with their physical body's functions (not even getting into energy) people would be much more healthy (because they could feel the results of unhealthy behaviors in real time) and medical diagnosis would be much easier? So I challenge you to learn to bring your mind to single pointed focus and feel the functions of your body, and if you can do this and not feel anything similar to what the ancient Chinese call chi, THEN you can call people who believe in chi delusional. Actually, this is the error in your argument "If chi exists everyone should be able to feel it." People's senses are incredibly degraded because of atrophy. So people can't even feel inside their own bodies unless they have terrible pain! How can you then expect them to feel something more subtle? However, there are lots of people who believe in chakras and chi who have never really felt them, and those who say they have could have just convinced themselves they were feeling it by overzealous visualization. (Incidentally, ancient Taoist understood that this could happen and called it "mental wind".) THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION. I'm glad you brought this up because people need to KEEP IT REAL and not go off the deep end with things they don't understand. But it's human nature to do this. People can read the latest popular science book and think they know the secrets of the universe. But they don't, they just read someone else's explanation of it. Perhaps it is the same with chi and chakras? I must note here that you have as much personal experience with DNA and electrons as with chi. But you believe in the former because you trust scientists. It is a matter of authority. Who should I trust? Of course, chi is not nearly as scientifically understood as protons and electrons, but first you must establish that it is a phenomenon worth investigating, then an investigation can be made. Real scientist have to have faith that they are doing something that will lead somewhere even if they can't prove it scientifically (pun intended). Good science was never done by people who didn't have faith in what they were doing. So, you should read "Mysteries of the Life Force: My Apprenticeship with a Chi Kung Master" by Peter Meech. As he describes his experiences, ask yourself "Is this person completely delusional, or might he have accessed something beyond normal experience in the same way that a scientist accesses the reality of protons and electrons?"

I recommend that if a moderator wants to make a request of someone that isn't EXPLICITLY an act of Moderating, they do not do it as a member of the "Mod Squad" but just as a regular forum member. Appeal to authority/hierarchy leads to conflict.

Oh man, nothing beats late night Tao Bummin'. No, I had my little bit fun, off to bed now.

???? I think we are talking past each other, friend. Best wishes, Tyler

I'm not sure that you got my point. May I will remind you that there was a question in my post, not just a statement. And an undertone of "How might this apply to me?"

I will certainly endeavor to be respectful and open minded in all interfaith dialogue that I participate in here. Suppose Lord Buddha had the realization but not the power to give the (seed of the) realization (which is beyond words) to others. Would he have spoken that way?