Creation

I must counsel against this kind of attitude. It is better to cultivate compassion and see others as being in the same boat as you (and everyone), just perhaps at a different state of development. You are not responsible for their development, so you can just ignore them and be content in yourself, but please try to purge yourself of any priggish "I am better than you because I am spiritual" attitude. If you ever happen to have the humbling experience of meeting someone who is incredibly holy but shows you compassion this will become clear, though it will still be difficult.

I must respectfully object to the way you phrased this. I imagine you mean that the classification Lei Shan Dao, Jin Dan Dao, Yang Shen Dao, Tong Ling Dao, Miao Tong Dao, Sha Mian Dao does not have a precedent in traditional Chinese Daoism, and I will take your word for it (I suspected as much anyway). But in a sense all classifications are imaginary so the real issue is utility. I think it is a useful classification of the different approaches to the Dao, granted that there can be plenty of overlap.

I hope things don't get out of hand... But is it just me or has Sean D. mellowed out? Maybe it's Master Wang's influence. How much for the Korean Miao Tong Dao master? He sounds the coolest to me . Seriously though, all the going around about teachers on this forum has taught me a lesson or two about attachment to teachers and practices.

Whether they realize it or not, People can sense each other's emotions and draw energy from them. This can be mutually edifying, like contagious enthusiasm, edifying for one, exemplified by bullying, or edifying for neither, like one person spreading their anger. So when someone makes fun of someone else, they come to expect a certain response: that they will make the recipient feel bad and thus make themselves feel good. Consider also that when people expect something or take something for granted, when things go otherwise it is a sort of shock that can case one to feel very negative. Combining the two, perhaps the girls who were laughing at you started feeling bad because they didn't get what they were anticipating (a feeling of power and control). My point is I don't think anything "paranormal" happened. It's great you are applying your training in real life. It sucks, but if you let it the crap you encounter in the world can accelerate your progress by bringing your weaknesses to the surface where you can deal with it. So your meditation and worldly activities build on each other. Regards, Tyler

Hi Teddy. As far as "is zhan zhuang alone sufficient" goes, the answer I got from Frantzis' books is if you know what you are doing standing can get you everything on the physical and energetic levels, but if you want to get into the emotional, mental, and spiritual levels you need a sitting practice. The whole deal with inner dissolving seems to be that you develop your ability to feel deeply into and be fully conscious of the physical body, then the energetic body, then the emotional body, etc. and be fully present and bring your full attention to whatever you feel, be it ecstatic, awful, or anywhere in between. Upon doing this blockages automatically dissolve; there is no real doing other than being conscious. So it seems very similar to zen in this way, and even more similar to vipassana, and not so similar to all the visualizations and playing with energy that you find in a lot of Taoist circles. And yet it is different from zen or vipassana, because it is focused on the whole person: you deal with the body, chi, emotions, mind, etc. and these are all emphasized, unlike zen where it is purely mental or vipassana where you are using bodily sensations to get to the mind. I may be way off, so it would be great if people who know more about it than me would chime in . I don't know about shelling out the money for the Tao of Letting Go course (I assume that is what you are referring to). I have not purchased it yet, but it is high on my to-get list when I get some spare cash. I can recommend that you look into the books Relaxing into Your Being and The Great Stillness and the 2 CD set Taoist Breathing for Chi Gung and Meditation from Frantzis' website (can't recommend it enough actually). The books lay out the philosophy of Water Method practice and some preliminary practices to get started on, and the CDs contain GREAT instructions on making breathing into meditation, which Frantzis says is a good thing, along with outer dissolving, to prepare you for inner dissolving. If it resonates with you and you are willing to put in the work go ahead and get the Tao of Letting Go course. So can you learn inner dissolving from the books and CDs alone? I don't know. I am trying to and let me tell you, learning fully present and developing internal awareness is certainly not easy, regardless of how good the books are. I hope this helps. Best of luck with your cultivation. -Tyler

I read this and realized that I am a fool. I smiled and felt much better. Thanks.

LOL...right. I guess when it said "Sponsor: Kathy Li" I assumed that meant she was sponsoring Master Wang to come and teach. Oh how the mind fill in the blanks as it sees fit .

Dear God this is CHEAP! This costs less than most qigong seminars, but it is on internal alchemy and is taught by THE Wang Liping! [EDIT: Apparently I got the wrong impression from the web page and Master Wang will not be teaching the seminar. But the rest of what I said still applies.] This may very well be the most extraordinary opportunity for Americans to study traditional nei dan I have ever seen. (And it makes Sean Denty's excuses for David Shen charging so much look very suspicious, for those of you who remember that debacle.) Thank you Ms. Li for organizing this. And yet I don't think this is for me right at this point in my life. Maybe they will be able to do something similar in the future? It truly looks like a wonderful opportunity. Thanks for bringing this to the forum's attention MPG.

Very clear and helpful advice, as usual JJ . What you said about listening to your body is dead on. I didn't really get the impression that that's what you did from your memoir, but that you basically guessed what the reversing the breath was from the cryptic text. So sorry for speaking presumptuously. Your story becomes more inspiring the more I hear . I still can't feel the circulation in my lower abdomen (still trying, of course), and I'm still not sure if reversing it is something I would go through with if I could, but I am certainly still grateful to be able to communicate with you! All the best, Tyler

Dear awake, Have you tried to contact JJ Semple about this? That would really be a good idea. If you PM april on this forum she can put you in touch with him. From what I have read, reversing the flow should be sufficient to get the kundalini going, so don't push it with muscular contractions or visualization unless you really know what you are doing (at least have the ability to root, still the mind, and feel your bodily and emotional sensations with and equanimous and positive state of mind.) Actually, I would strongly recommend getting to that state before you try to raise your kundalini at all. On that note, if you are not seriously dedicated to spiritual practice (which your on-and-off attitude toward practice and reliance on drugs to get in a meditative mindset indicate) why in the word are you messing with kundalini arousing practices? I don't mean to make you more afraid, but seriously, if he said to reverse the circulation in your lower abdomen when you become aware of it, you are taking a serious risk by reversing the feeling of circulation in your throat. Kundalini arousal is not a game or a curiosity and you can seriously mess yourself up if you use improper methods. JJ warned against visualization for this reason, but probably thought it went without saying that you should follow his instructions to the letter. From reading his memoir, it seems like he would have reversed the flow wherever he felt it too. But that he felt it where he did and that what he subsequently did was so successful for him is an extraordinary stroke of fortune, and certainly seems to me like the exception rather than the rule. [Edit: not quite correct, and presumptuous of me to speak for him. See april's post below and my reply.] On the bright side, you are getting results and nothing you have reported sounds too aberrant for this type of practice. If you do find that things are getting too rough, there are people with healing abilities around here that could help you. Keep us posted. I wish you all the best in your cultivation. Your friend, Tyler

Freeform, Great points. As you posted while I was composing this, there is some overlap that I do not wish to remove. Fellow Taobums, I apologize if the following rant comes off as mental masturbation. Maybe it is, but I perceive people are not exactly on one another's wavelengths and perhaps some of what I have to say could prevent people from talking past each other so much. People have been going around about this for a long time and I would like to see some resolution. After contemplating these upward and downward flow debates, I have come to make the following distinction. It is based on my limited theoretical knowledge and even more limited practical experience, so perhaps discussion will help reveal just how valid a distinction it is. So, to those with alchemical experience (especially key players in these discussions like Santiago and fiveelementtao), I would very much like to know if this idea matches you experience: Alchemical Flow vs. Chi Flow. Chi Flow: Chi can flow from anywhere to anywhere else, no problem. It might be obstructed somehow, but there is no law that says it can't flow in any particular way. So a basic thing you want to do in chi gong is to clear out all the channels and have an appropriately strong and unobstructed chi flow throughout the body. You can then draw in and project out chi from/to any place in any direction. Alchemical Flow: On the other hand, there are specific processes of transformation of the human body like jing to chi, chi to shen, kan and li, and kundalini arousal. Things that just GO when certain conditions are met. They seem to have specific sources within a persons physical/etheric anatomy, go in a specific direction, and deal with certain "frequencies" of energy (c.f. Oscar Hsu saying Kundalini and Kunlun are different frequencies of energy in the central channel). I call this the alchemical flow of the process. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when jing to chi, lesser kan and li, or kundalini arousal occur it is unambiguously a transformation/transmutation of potential stored at the lower centers which flows up and causes transformation at the higher centers (and everything in between)? I.e. not just a flow of garden variety chi? There are a couple of issues here. 1. You can have some kundalini or some sublimation of sexual energy without the whole process occurring. But there should be an unambiguous leap when the whole thing happens (in that sense, like Glenn Morris said, there is no partial kundalini awakening). 2. When the transmutation occurs, it can flow incorrectly (c.f. Gopi Krishna's account of the kundalini going up the governing vessel instead of the thrusting vessel). Yikes ! 3. When said process is finished, there will be changes in the physical/etheric anatomy (something like rewiring), increased chi, etc. which has an effect on the Chi Flow category. So Santiago talks about kundalini in every channel and every cell of your body, but this is only applies after the alchemical transformation that is the raising of the serpent up the central channel takes place. Does this sound right Santi? From what I have read, kundalini arousal, kan and li, and jing to chi all have more than one stage to the process. Kundalini will come back down: downward flow originating from the crown, or something like that. This is much less documented as kundalini, but c.f. Mark Griffin's stuff, http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5508 (he tries to identify the stages of kundalini with the stages fo kan and li, which I believe goes back to Mantak Chia), and fiveelementtao's stuff in http://www.thetaobums.com/Kunlun-Yogani-t8418.html.) Kan and Li has lesser, greater and greatest. From Mantak Chias descriptions is all an upward alchemical flow, but then again who knows how much Chia really knows about it . Can anyone chime in on this point? And jing to chi is followed by chi to shen, which I have heard associated with a reverse flow (c.f. Tien Tao Chi Kung). So what fiveelementtao says about most alchemy being base to crown and then back down seems to be pretty well supported. Note that I am not (and I suspect that he is not) talking about chi flow, but alchemical flow. Then you have these Maoshan guys talking about an alchemical process that begins with a downward (alchemical) flow. Weird! Incidentally, I have not heard that Jenny Lamb talks about a downward flow of Kunlun energy (though if she did doubtless it would be using different terms). Is this right? Because freeform says that Red Phoenix activates the potential in the head that the "Kunlun" spontaneous motion practice then causes to flow downward. I.e. no red phoenix no downward alchemical flow of "Kunlun energy"! Did I get that that right freeform? Max said that the Kunlun and kundalini yoga are incomparable, not "kunlun energy" and kundalini. Insofar as you can believe what Max says , it makes sense in my framework because the alchemical flows, being processes, could interfere with each other, but if you only have one process going at a time, you should be alright. But here on this forum ( http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...ost&p=54276 ) someone states Kunlun made them sick, and that later they speculated it was because their kundalini had been awake since they were ~12. I don't know much credence to give that though... Well, that's a decent beginning. I hope this finds you all well, Tyler

He forgot the other half of the quote! "The dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." King Solomon, Ecclesisastes 12:7

The term scripture is kind of ambiguous. What is considered most important and/or authoritative? What is considered heretical by one denomination but not another? So not all of this would be called scripture depending on who you ask. A star indicates what I think are considered to be the most important/authoritative/universally accepted in each group. Judaism: *The Tanakh (acronym for Torah ("Teaching," also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im ("Prophets") and Ketuvim ("Writings")) contains the History and Laws, and Devotional/Prophetic/wisdom writings of the Ancient Israelites. - Apocalyptic writings from the period between the composition of the Tanakh and the Rabbinic period. - The Talmud is a compliation of literature from the early rabbinic period. - The fundamental texts of Kabbalah are the Sepher Yezirah and the Zohar. Christianity: * The Old Testament: Same as the Tanakh of Judaism. * The New Testament: 4 gospels (life and teachings of Jesus), a history of the early church, letters written by early church leaders, and a book of prophecy. - The Apocrypha: same as Apocalyptic writings of Judaism. - Writings of the Early Church Fathers: Ignatius, Polycarp, Ireneus, and Origen were the main pre-Constantine ones. - Things like Gnostic gospels, deemed inauthentic or heretical by the group we know as the Early Church, but making a big comeback today. Islam: * Koran (Qu'ran) - Hadith Buddhism: * Theravada: The Pali cannon is the written record of oral teachings deemed to be the true teachings of Buddha, though written down some centuries after his death. * Mahayana has its own cannon of teachings of the Buddha. Some popular Sutras are the Heart, Lotus, and Diamond sutras. Hinduism: * The Vedas are in theory the most important scriptures, but it is not too common to study them anymore. They contain the Upanishads, the philosophical core of Hinduism. * The most popular scriptures are the epics: Ramayana concerns the avatar Rama and surrounding people/events, Mahabharata concerns the avatar Krishna and surrounding people/events. Within the Mahabharata is the Bhagavad Gita, considered the best summary of Hinduism. - Secondary writings (Puranas, Agamas): different Hindu groups will emphasize different Upanishads, Puranas and Agamas. - The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali are the most ancient compilation of the whole of the yogic path. Taosim: * I Ching (Yijing) - Huang Di Nei Jing (Yellow Emperor's classic of internal medicine) * Philosophical works from ~600-200 B.C.: Tao Te Ching (Daodejing), Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi), Huai-nan tzu (Huainanzi). Lieh tzu (Liezi) was later but of a similar style. - Famous alchemical treatises. The Triplex Unity (or Kinship of the Three) is the earliest. - There is a lot more in the Taoist Cannon (Daozhang). Since some of the starred stuff is pretty long here are some personal recommendations to trim it down: From the Tanakh try Genesis, Exodus, Psalms and Proverbs. From the New Testament try the Gospels. For Taoism try Chuang Tzu. For Hinduism, the Bhagavad Gita. Understanding this stuff in its proper historical and cultural context is an enormous challenge. Much of it will not be nearly as easy reading as Tao Te Ching. I hope this helps, and I apologize for any errors of omission or factual misstatements.

Hi Adeha. I like Relaxing into Your Being so much because it gives such a wide perspective of Taoist theory and practice, like a map. I'm a very intellectually oriented person, so on the one hand I like maps (figuratively speaking), but on the other I have to constantly remind myself that the map is not the territory . Not that it's a particularly cerebral book, but it is saturated with information and wisdom (e.g. lots of great stories about Liu Hung Chieh) so I would recommend checking it out to anyone interested in Taoism. As for practice, I saw the practices as complementary. For example "Taoist internal breathing" is the longevity breathing of OtEG plus how to use breathing to build meditative and energetic awareness. The standing practice is identical, but he gets more into the meditative aspects of it. I got RiyB first, but then liked it so much that I got OtEG and The Great Stillness a week or two later, and worked on standing and breathing combining the instructions from the former two. Tyler

Yeah, I'm sure it is worth it. But it will take a while for me to save up that kind of money, so life's just frustrating like that. The instructors I've looked into seem to offer regular classes instead of seminars. Who are the exceptions? Yeah, Relaxing into Your Being is probably my favorite book on Taoism. I've been working on the internal breathing lessons (I have the CDs too) for almost 10 months. I have a lot of junk deep inside and sustaining concentration is not my strong suit, so it is going very slowly. Just to clarify, there is no real difference between that and the standing practice in RiyB right? Thanks. Hi Jess. Thanks for contributing. I'm glad you are still hanging around the forum. Tyler

Thanks for contributing Aaron. Welcome to the Tao Bums! I suspected something like this was the case, but like you said, all I've got is a book. I am nowhere near any Energy Arts Instructors, so a seminar with BKF seems like my best bet to get personal instruction. What seminar would you suggest for someone whose primary interest is the meditative part of the tradition? Moreover, since Frantzis charges an arm and a leg for his longer stuff do you think I could get a good grasp on this stuff from a weekend seminar, i.e. good enough to be able to go and practice on my own with the confidence that I am doing, e.g. dissolving correctly and effectively? Also, do you notice any grave errors in what I posted? Longtime practitioners of Frantzis' stuff seem to be underrepresented on this forum. Pietro and Jess rarely post and Buddy and Jane are gone... So I am very pleased that you have shown up. But I do apologize for thrusting you into a teaching/advising role on your first post . Thanks, Tyler

I only know of forestofsouls...it would be cool if he would chime in! But I guess he already did here a long time ago: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=2263 Actually, it has been bugging me for some time that that thread is mis-titled Waysun Lao. Hopefully my posting it here will help people searching for stuff on him to find it. Unfortunately, it gets into a quagmire of rumors and fear mongering, but it has some good stuff. Also, Dwai, I'll reply to your post in Fire or Water here since it seems more appropriate. Nine Nights is my favorite Liao book too. I'm actually re-reading it presently, and I'm seeing a lot of great stuff I missed the first time. Namely, the first time I mainly paid attention to the philosophy and the story, but now I'm getting all the the practical stuff that's tucked in there. I wasn't ready to hear the deceptively simple "Purify your mind use your pure mind to feel your energy, in order to eventually make yourself a cavity to receive the One Chi." After reading some Complete Reality/Dragon Gate stuff (Seven Taoist Masters, Opening the Dragon Gate, Dao Zhen's posts on this form), the few instructions for practice in Nine Nights are making more of an impression on me. They also say purifying your mind is the first step in serious Taoist cultivation, and I think Liao's One Chi is the same as the Yang Chi they talk about. Nine Nights with the Taoist Master and Relaxing into Your Being are my favorite books on Taoism.

Yeah that's the whole mystery of it. One of the things I like about Frantzis is how he only presents a few deceptively simple exercises that are extremely deep. No flashy stuff: if you want to get something out of it you have to dig very deep. So Opening the Energy Gates has 7 exercises total and Relaxing into Your Being has 4 (I think). To get dissolving you need to first get really good at proper breathing and alignment, the ability to scan/feel your body, release downward and sink, and really be able to feel qi. Then to really get dissolving you have to get into the mindstream. This stuff is very nontrivial! By the way, are you a student or grandstudent of Waysun Liao? Buying his Essence of Tai Chi in a campus bookstore about a year ago is the main catalyst for my getting serious about learning Taoism and qigong.

You brought up some interesting memories for me. There once was an extremely depressed 13 year old who's only joy was in learning and pondering the deep mysteries of the universe. He was interested in science and spirituality, but hadn't really left his Protestant bubble and had only begun to learn the mathematics necessary for serious study of science. But his family had just gotten the internet so a whole world of information opened to him. He read about "the holographic principle" in a popularization of string theory and became determined to learn about the mathematics and physics of holograms. In this spirit, he found a book called The Holographic Universe at a local library. About a month prior to this, he had started working with a therapist who was a Buddhist, the first seriously spiritual person that wasn't a Christian he had met, whose faith and practice had given some legitimacy to things he previously considered Eastern nonsense. So when the book turned out to be laden with concepts from Eastern religions, instead of dismissing the things it described they exploded into his mind as a huge realm of previously unimaginable possibilities. It took many years before that boy got serious about cultivation and study of spirituality with a mind open to things Eastern and Western, but that book was a huge turning point on his spiritual journey. I had completely forgotten about that. So yeah, I really liked the book then, but would I like it if I read it today, or would I recommend it to others? I don't know. It was just what I needed at the time I came across it. Maybe I should try to find it again just for fun.

I am a huge fan of B.F. Frantzis' work. Sometimes he comes off as hard on fire methods, but he admits he is a water method person who hurt himself with fire methods, and says other people might be more suited for them. Something I've noticed is that the water method is very subtle. It's trying to be wu wei from the get go instead of doing stuff to get to a wu wei state. Anyone who has tried to be wu wei in real life knows that that is easier said than done. It does seem that if you don't really "get" the water method on a level above the intellectual you must use fire to make substantial progress. I think this makes discussion of water versus fire hard. Dissolving is a very subtle thing that for all my efforts I do not come close to understanding it. A long time BKF student once posted this on the form: (From the very long post here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...amp;#entry68729 ) I fear that I will never really learn this from a book, and studying with BKF is not cheap. But there is something about this that really appeals to me. Until I can figure it out I will have to utilize a fair amount of fire methods. Which is fine. I don't think I am necessarily a water method only person (as if I am qualified to judge that anyway at my current level of understanding ) but there is something very attractive to me about the water method. I remain hopeful.

You can have an incorrect argument for a correct statement. Actually you get something extremely complex and looking nothing like anything Newton ever dreamed of (entanglement, etc.). That is one of the major mysteries of quantum physics. The classical limit is recovered by the approximation [Planck's constant] -> 0 but that doesn't fully cover up the essential weirdness of it all. But is that really connected to spirituality? You gave a perfectly good answer already: To which I would add "For now." Maybe someday a better understanding of the quantum world will help resolve some of this confusion.

I remember reading on eternalspringtours.com (Dao Zhen's site) that the mysterious gate could manifest after as little as a week or two of correct practice, but that may have been after 100 days of celibacy. (Why oh why doesn't eternalsprintours.com exist anymore?) Dao Zhen talked a lot about it, as a very important step to be sure, but a very basic and preliminary step in the early stages of inner alchemy. He called it the mysterious pass: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...ost&p=69681 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=6162 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...ost&p=70108 http://www.thetaobums.com/Eternal-Way-t5928.html http://www.thetaobums.com/Union-with-Tao-t5971.html His posts are gold mines of info on nei dan.

Bon voyage, my friend!

As far as traditional Taoist nei dan goes, check out the posts of Dao Zhen on this form. I posted about this here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry111724 It seems that most discussion of the mco is more on the qigong level than nei dan level, i.e. the level of removing blockages to the flow of qi and encouraging a good strong flow in the major channels, which is certainly beneficial. As far as qigong goes you can do the latter by deliberately trying to circulate qi with your mind, or by encouraging the qi to flow with breathing, postures, and/or special movements. These are yang and yin or fire and water methods, respectively. One of these is much more wu-wei, and seems to me to be a safer, dare I say more Taoist (philosophically) method. Things are not always as clear cut as water and fire though, and you can certainly combine intention/visualization/concentration with breathing/postures/movements. In the system Dao Zhen practices (as far as I can tell), the channels are opened with special postures and mudras. But as far as nei dan goes, just having qi circulating in your orbit is not the true "water wheel" and is even sometimes called the "false water wheel" (Dao Zhen mentioned this at some point, a search for it might be instructive). The true water wheel occurs (I think, I'm just transmitting my interpretation of what I've read) when the dan tien has been filled with yang qi (see my post I linked to above) and the yang qi spills over into the eight vessels and fills/circulates in the whole body. Incidentally, the form Winn referred to that he got from Frantzis is called Marriage of Heaven and Earth, and it is not yet in book form. Moreover, the form Frantzis proscribes to open the body's channels he calls Spiraling Energy Body, and is also not in book form, as he is very cautious about putting high voltage techniques in books. I believe it involves special standing postures and reverse breathing. Regardless, I second looking into Frantzis' stuff. Good information, good practices. Anyway, the mco may a prerequisite to other practices in a particular system, so it may be emphasized in such a system at a particular time or with a particular purpose distinct from the general "unobstructed and appropriately strong qi flow is good". But as far as a general foundation goes, it is not something you need to do right off the bat. I apologize for any misinformation posted here. I am a beginner and a seeker, and my intent is to point in a useful direction.

AugustLeo: NB = nota bene = note well. From the descriptions given, the germinal vesticle sounds to me like a different name for the mysterious pass.