Creation

Hi Alchemybot. I don't know exactly what you meant by Taoist stories, so here is everything I know of that could fall under that label. I hope it helps. First, here are some books that are translations of several-century-old Chinese documents: Alchemists, Mediums, and Magicians by Thomas Cleary: brief sketches of several famous Taoists Seven Taoist Masters by Eva Wong: a novel chronicling the patriarchs and matriarch of the Northern Complete Reality school. Second, Eva Wong has recorded many stories about Taoists from oral tradition in Tales of the Dancing Dragon and Tales of the Taoist Immortals. Third, there are stories about the life and training modern adepts: Opening the Dragon Gate (trr. Thomas Cleary) and Deng Mind-Dao's Chronicles of the Tao. On a similar note, The Magus of Java is about the author's meeting with a high level Taoist adept and his abilities and teachings. Finally, there is a teaching novel by a modern Taoist that has Lao Tzu as a character and incorporates the text of the Tao Te Ching into the dialogue: Waysun Liao's Nine Nights with the Taoist Master. The only two that I have read in there entirety are Seven Taoist Masters and Nine Nights with the Taoist Master. I highly recommend both of them. I've perused Wong's other books and Opening the Dragon Gate and they both seem like they have good material if you are attracted to their respective premises. Happy reading, Tyler

I can contribute a bit from what I've read, but haven't experienced (yet ). Hopefully my words at least point you in a promising direction. At first, the "dan tien" is place where all the body's chi channels intersect, the body's center of mass, the place where the body grew from as a fetus, etc. so it is very important. For example, it is naturally a good place to store excess chi generated by chi gong practice (a lot of forms do this as a close down). But it is not some kind of infinite battery; when it reaches its limit you must ground the rest of the energy. Moreover you can be storing bad stuff there along with the good stuff. So trying to "fill your dan tien" or "store chi in the dan tien" may not be the best idea at first. And yet you hear about "creating" and "filling" the dan tien all the time. In alchemy, as I understand it, you want to fill the dan tien with the highest quality energy available, variously called "primordial chi" or "yang chi" (yang as in light/bright, not masculine/aggressive) So first, you must make yourself a proper vessel for the primordial chi. This is done by regulating the body and the breath. But more importantly, you must rid yourself of thoughts, desires, passions and ego. You cannot attract the primordial qi otherwise. "What a tall order that is," you may say, but after all the primordial energy of the universe does not exactly like to dwell in a garbage heap! I'll stop here because of lack of qualification. I've heard of all of this stuff alluded to in many sources. The most informative was probably Dao Zhen's posts right here on this form. Here is a start: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=4793 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=6181 Happy reading, happy cultivating.

Someone got a million pounds for combining quantum physics, philosophy, and a bit of mystical speculation? Whence comes this? Perhaps it's just because he has the credentials he does, as if to give an aura of respectability to such endeavors, after ages of being associated with "new-ageiness". I'm not sure if it will accomplish that, given how most scientists seem to view the Templeton prize (as nac pointed out). That's not to say Professor D'Espagnat isn't on to something... I happen to think that he is. It just doesn't seem novel, and genuine understanding of these issues is so far off that handing out huge sums of money seems premature. Then again, they have to give it to somebody.

Thanks for the interesting videos Darin. I especially liked all the cross-tradition references. It was probably "Muscle/Tendon Changing and Marrow/Brain Washing Chi Kung". Does that ring any bells? The book Joe mentioned is the second edition. I don't know how different they are, but some of his stuff gets a lot bigger the second time around. http://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Secret-Youth-...s/dp/1886969841

You know, right before I posted the post with the paragraph in question I thought "maybe this is too gushy." After all, I was in a really good mood, and when I am in a good mood I get gushy. But I had seen some gushiness around here before so I didn't think it was a big deal. Moreover, note that the gushy paragraph was just a part of a larger post and not the main point, and that a very small percentage of my posts have received replies, so I had the impression that people don't pay much attention to my posts anyway. But the post in question sparked what appears to me to be the most furious collection of posts not related to Kunlun or Mak Tin Si in quite some time! How 'bout them apples? Pondering this, the following quote from The Fellowship of the Ring came to my mind: "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." Peace to all of you.

Could you please post the link to the pdf?

I found this extremely profound.

Thank you sharing this, goldisheavy. Interactionless measurement is quite possibly the most important discovery on the experimental side of the foundations of quantum physics for a long time (see below). That article was very vague and dumbed down (thought for good reason, of course), so I'm going to do more research on Hardy's paradox. But that will have to wait until I have slept. Bingo. In quantum mechanics the observer "collapsing the wavefunction" is a random event (the theory only gives odds for the outcome); that's the whole trouble with quantum mechanics. This does not lend itself to the sentiment that consciousness creates reality. Getting that from physics will have to wait for a physical theory of consciousness. Good luck with that . But as for getting a better understanding of quantum mechainics itself, I think interactionless measurement will help because when you look at the Bohr-Einstein debates, there is this huge tension that keeps coming up because Einstein wants to talk about physical reality, but Bohr denies him this on the basis of the uncertainty principle and they just talk past each other. This could really frame those debates in a new light, and I think that Einstein, who history chides as being on the wrong side of the issue, could be largely vindicated. Another reason I think this is important was stated by a leading expert in the field, Sir Anthony Leggett: "It's important to probe quantum mechanics on various frontiers, and one frontier not probed enough is in the direction towards the real world."

My dear Taobums brothers and sisters, As one of the instigators of the present thread, please hearken to me. Hopefully this will be my final post on the matter. If a person so clearly displays that he has no respect for others and cannot see that he is repeatedly doing exactly what he criticizes everyone else for doing, then engaging in dialogue with such a person is futile. I could say a lot more on the matter, but I think plenty has already been said. "He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know." It bears repeating: "Wisdom is proved right by her actions." Love, Tyler

GiH, It was nice to get all this out in the open. "Wisdom is proved right by her actions." Best of luck to you in your cultivation, Tyler

Dear goldisheavy, I have read many brawls on this forum and I swore to myself that I wouldn't not get involved in any. But a brawl came looking for me. I can choose to ignore it, or I can try to deal with it in the most positive way I can. I choose the latter. Even after I explained why I said what I said about Santiago "freely giving away" knowledge and energy, you repeatedly call me dishonest and accuse me of thanking my teacher in an inappropriate way. If it was not clear, I was thanking people for things that were done publicly and on this forum. Yet even so, I must ask: You use terms like "should never be done" and "it should be obvious" and you insist everyone should follow you rigid rules of "same exact forum" and "align the scope of the gratitude with the scope of that which you are grateful for." I think this is good advice, but everybody has their ideas about how to properly conduct themselves. This varies from by culture, upbringing, etc. Why do you think you are the manners police? Did what I said offend you that much? Can you not realize that I had good intentions and am at worst immature for expressing myself as I did (very possible of course). All I wanted to do was make a nice, pleasant post thanking some people because I was in a grateful mood, and I got a torrent of negativity for it? Oh well, I can take it. The world is a harsh place. But it does not speak well on you behalf, even more so that you are doing it all under the name of Ancestor Lu. Since you feel so free to judge everyone else by the lordly light of your contemplation, contemplate this for a change: you are seeing this situation through you filters (reality validation framework as you would say) and are not as unquestionably right in all you say and do as you seem to think you are. For the record: I do not perceive Santi's talking about KAP as an advertisement. He talks about it because it is a system he practices. If someone who is a tai chi teacher posts about tai chi is it an advertisement? If they display wisdom, it speaks well on their behalf and might make you want to study with them but that does not mean they were trying to advertise. You say its okay to be a businessman but then you list how many of the greatest sages of all times had "real jobs" and didn't use their spiritual knowledge for profit. This leaves your readers confused about what you really believe. I called Santi Guru because he is my teacher. I don't know what you think I meant by that, but that is ALL. I'm not saying anyone else should call him that or think of him in any way that they associate with the word guru. He certainly never told me "Tyler, you must address me as guru." In fact, I can't even imagine him doing such a thing.

I am reposting this on "How to properly express gratitude." After all, it's way off topic

It's fun watching various reality validation frameworks colliding like this. I was happy when you said this, because it is essential to have this perspective when having these online conversations. In fact, I appreciate YOUR contributions to the Tao Bums because you keep people from going too far down their own rabbit hole to the point where they are not thinking clearly. And now I know what it is like to bear the brunt of your rigorous "contemplation", so thanks for that experience. Regarding what you said to me specifically: From some perspective nothing is free, every action and every interaction between people produces some karmic effect. That is one way of looking at things. But what I was doing was expressing gratitude. Has anyone ever been kind to you before? Have you ever been grateful to another person? Can you truly not understand that I was just being grateful to one of my teachers? Please forgive me for what your reality validation framework tells you was an exaggeration on my part. But Santi does not charge for the wisdom he shares with us on this forum. Maybe you do not see his words as wisdom, but I do and I was expressing gratitude for that. Also, if you have not felt anything from the picture, fine, but I did (at no cost that I can ascertain) and I wanted to thank him for that. At the very least, I have had more interaction with Santi than you, so please don't think you know more than me about how generous he is and what he does or does not give away for free.

This has been one of the best Kunlun (read: going all over the place about a lot of important cultivation issues) threads. Thanks to all the people who have participated and opened up. I'm in a grateful mood, so in particular: Cam and dizzydazzle, it is always great when people help clear the fog of storytelling around these things. Thanks. Ya Mu: I always love reading your take on things. Thank you for that all you contribute here. I really want to study with you at some point (still). I am unsure about the coming seminar for various reasons, but I remain hopeful. Guru Santi: I really appreciate all you contribute here as well. Looking at your avatar produces an ear-to-ear grin on my face that lasts for several minutes. May the Infinite One bless you many times over for all the energy and wisdom you so freely give out. I love you! Joe: I sincerely hope you find a practice to get settled into that you don't have to worry yourself to tears about. I am a worrier too, and have been around and around about Kunlun, and a lot of other stuff too for that matter. These days I just DO spontaneous movement, i.e. it's not Max's or Jennys or Maoshan or whatever, it's MINE and I just do whatever. Sometimes sitting, sometimes standing, in the kunlun posture, in horse stance, in wuji stance, in configurations I learned in KAP, WHATEVER. I just try to smile, relax, maintain some semblance of correct posture and breathing, then move into trying let go of the mind and just observe (all to various degrees of success). It seems to be working pretty well for me. The Kunlun book got me into this spontaneous motion stuff. Were it not for Max's book and all the discussion he has generated here I know I would have never really considered LETTING GO and not being afraid to go totally nuts with the motion, or at least not for a really long time. That has opened up so a whole new dimension to my cultivation, and for that I am very grateful to Max.

I was really looking forward to testing Mak Tin Si's FU power! Drat! Regardless, this has been a great thread in many ways. Special thanks to Stigweard for his kindness and patience in facilitating and moderating it.

Hi sasmaster, I mostly wanted to say hi and welcome you to the Terrific Teenage Taobums Club. The terrific is just there for alliteration, not immodesty . I can't give any expert advice. But I will say that not everything that feels really blissful can be classified as a type of orgasm. So don't worry too much about the sexual aspect of it. Frantzis and others talk about having an orgasm in any part(s) of your body, which begs the question, what exactly is an orgasm from an energy perspective? What you had doesn't seem like one, since the energy you were working with sounds like unaroused jing qi. But just because its unaroused doesn't mean it doesn't feel awesome! I've had a similar experience of energy rising, but only up to around ming men; more like warm fuzzies than intense bliss. (I don't do SKF either for the record.) That's cool that it went all the way up the day after going up your lower back. Then again, you sound like you are more disciplined about practice than I am, and I loose my seed way too often . More experienced cultivators: please chime in ! Anyway, best of luck to you in your cultivation. Is your teacher an Energy Arts instructor, or is you BKF stuff from his books?

Some thoughts on wu wei from B. K. Frantzis: http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s...Non-Action.html

I have similar problems with my meditation. You talk about the intense physical responses you get from the emotions that arise. Going with the zen idea of "just keep sitting" really doesn't sound like what you need to be doing right now. I think you are on the right track thinking you might need to go beyond sitting zazen. People have brought up some good points about why qigong might not be a good idea (getting you sidetracked with feeling good or getting power, supercharging your negative emotions) but you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and you seem to have genuine devotion to spiritual practices, so I say go for it. I think the inner smile (Healing Tao and/or Glenn Morris versions) are a good idea. Also, vipassana sounds like a good alternative to just "sitting through it": go deep into your body and learn to truly relax and let go of the physical tension and the underlying emotion. A similar technique with a more qigong/Taoist feel is the dissolving meditation of B. K. Frantzis. I highly recommend all of his works for someone in your shoes. His books Relaxing into your Being and The Great Stillness are about the progression of meditation in his branch of Taoism. They really helped me make sense of all this qigong vs. meditation stuff. He talks about dealing with all the emotions that come up and strengthening the central nervous system with qigong in order to deal with intense energies that arise in meditation (emotional or otherwise). Your idea about strengthening/clearing the channels helping to handle sitting meditation is something he is says is very important. He also has a great book on basic qigong called Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body which gives instructions on the basic level of the dissolving practice. Keep in mind that I do not speak with any authority; I am still experimenting and learning the stuff I recommended to you and so cannot say it has "worked." Actually, you seem to be more advanced in meditation than I am . But I have looked into a lot of stuff and these particular practices have really resonated with me and I think I am making progress on my emotional issues with them. Best of luck to you!

altiora, Thanks for bringing the Orthodox perspective into the discussion. The more I hear, the more I am interested in the Orthodox Church. You also bring up some great interfaith issues. There are so many double standards and hidden assumptions and so much cultural baggage woven into religious thinking and discoursing. As someone with a foot (toe?) in several religions right now, I am becoming aware of how little people realize this. Bruce, Thomas Merton=required reading for the modern Christ follower. Really great stuff. The pivotal questions that I am pondering right now about Christianity: In what way was Yeshua of Nazerath more than an ordinary man and what was the meaning of his death? Discerning the truth about these issues is certainly way over my head at this point...

SO TRUE. I attended a prestigious Midwestern university for a year and found the people there to be not the intellectual cream of the crop, but a bunch of drones who are very good at "playing the game". This type of behavior is encouraged and rewarded by the system, while everyone pats themselves on the back thinking (and telling everyone) that it is such a great place to get a higher education. Learning? Exploring? Discovering? Creating (from whence I take my screen name)? What are those? That was a good chunk of the reason I dropped out. But the question remains, what the hell am I going to do with my life?

My experience, like Scotty's, is that Ya Mu is not in it for the money, but genuinely wants to help people and spread knowledge, regardless of how he chooses to express himself on the forum.

This issue has come up a few times before. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=1566 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=4621 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=6876 Summary: dan tiens and chakras are related, but not the same.

One of the first things I read when I stumbled upon this site were the David Verdesi/Foundation Training debates. Nothing I have seen on here recently is anywhere near that level of intense negativity and ego . Not much on here bothers me after reading those. Conversation between strangers over the internet lacks so many of the normal mechanisms and safeguards governing human interaction. But I really think this forum is a special place. So I just try not to take anything here personally and steer clear of the minefields. Oh no... did I just sound like a know-it-all?