Todd

Thanks. I understand where you're coming from much better now.

Yeah, this is key in my opinion. How much weight do we start with. A few years ago I did a four day water fast, with some bliss and some hell states, but afterward I was weak. I couldn't do yoga poses that I could do before. So it really depends on our condition before we start a fast. Are we deficient, or do we have some excess condition? I did end up mostly a vegetarian afterward though, so I can't say it wasn't an interesting experience. Of course, there are other factors at play. High level cultivators and whatnot, but for most of us, I think it is worthwhile to consider if fasting is the right medicine FOR US.

I guess you're just way more funner. On a dour, serious, backward note, why believe in dragons if they exist? Why disbelieve if they don't? I don't care what you believe, though I do have some resistance to the fact that you do believe. I know, thats no fun. I'm working on it

Wow this is fun, arguing about the past. Let me refresh your memory. "I am not as energetically developed as Hundun apparently is. I certainly cannot see energy being streamed, but I will say that I was very much turned off by the seminar. ... I had something to learn, and perhaps Kunlun has something to offer me as a practice, but if there is a direction to truth, further involvement with these seminars is the opposite direction for me." and "I don't mind being told lies, since everything is a lie from a certain perspective. (Everything is right from a certain perspective too, Cam. I am not attacking you, or anyone's experience, here.) However, please don't ask me to believe you when you tell me lies. It makes me think you don't want me to see the truth. I could be wrong though. All of this could be true. I've only got my gut and my eyes and my intelligence to go by. Mostly my gut though." and "Energy stuff happens with awakening, but awakening is NOT about energy stuff. One of the main reasons that I will not be going to more seminars, is that the energy stuff is being presented as the real deal, whereas in my perspective, its just more stuff. Its about experiences, and what we can GET. I like experience. I like stuff. But truth always comes before experience for me. Thats just my quirk, and its a quality I look for in spiritual teachers. I like for them to be able to point toward truth on a fairly consistent basis. I don't need anyone to point me toward more stuff. I'm a bit too thick headed in my desire for more stuff to have someone keep encouraging that desire within me. I guess going to this seminar was about exploring my desire for more stuff. My response was, "Allright. I didn't like that. Time to get back to truth." Truth is more about an attitude, and does not preclude more stuff. I did not find that attitude at the seminar. ... This enjoyment does not equate with enlightenment or bringing students closer to truth in my opinion, however." Of course, I'm just highlighting the negative stuff. I left it in a cloud of "I don't know" since i actually don't know. Of course, I am partial to my experience. It is a sad person who has not seen their experience proven wrong time and time again, though. I certainly am not saying you are wrong or were wrong. I am just wondering why it is so important to you to be the only one to have shared a thumbs down experience of Max and the seminar? Does the world really need our argument with it? What do I know though? Maybe you're an enlightened sage, showing us the way. The question I was trying to open up, beyond he whole misperception of yourself and the ONE standing up for truth, is: if you are not enlightened, do these arguments and assertions bring you closer to truth? If you are not in full recognition of truth, are you really leading others towards truth? Are we not the pot calling the kettle black when we assert that our views are somehow more true that Max's views, or those of his followers? I get the point that in relative terms, you have leveled some very valid criticisms, that were not being aired. In relative terms, I am thankful to you for doing that, since I certainly wasn't in the mood to get into a fracas, and was pleasantly surprised when no one 'cept Cam took my bait. So why am I writing this to you? Who knows? Get what you will out of it. And certainly, believe what you will.

How did you get that out of what he said? I think it was something more like "All that really matters with an enlightenment experience is how much of the egoic consciousness drops away, because thats what you live with." My memory is probably just as flawed as yours though. Makes one wonder about the sutras and bible and whatnot, doesn't it? Written years after the fact. We're writing minutes after the fact. Though if a disciple got the message, their pointing would be spot on as well.

I'm not sure why I'm stepping in here, but you were the only one? How was I so easily erased? I shared my experience, then let it be. If we attacked everyone who said an untrue thing, we'd be attacking everyone, every time they opened their mouths. Besides, I don't know the way. What use is it to tell everyone else that they don't know the way either? It might be that people who are taken in are getting exactly what they want, and to them they are not being taken in. They are following their integrity. Hard to say. In my perception, there were strong elements of hypnotism at work. It is an interesting question, however, how much of our lives is not influenced by such hypnotic conditioning? I also saw the dancing girl only spinning clockwise, and never counterclockwise. What is a true perception? And what are we creating with our views? ... On a related not, for everyone's consideration, via thelerner's practice journal, Alan Watt's essay "The Trickster Guru": "...be sure to have about thirty or forty different stages of progress worked out, giving them numbers, and suggest that there are still some extremely high stages beyond those numbered which can only be understood by those who have reached twenty-eight - so no point in discussing them now." Read more.

In another thread you mentioned that wisdom/enlightenment without powers, and powers without wisdom/enlightenment are both dangerous for cultivators and those around them. I am specifically interested in the wisdom/enlightenment (I'm sorry I can't remember what word you used) without powers part of that statement. Why do you say this? I'll tell you where my mind goes with this, so your answer might be more inclusive of that. I'm not sure what to think of powers. I don't have any powers beyond a bit of intelligence, and my intuition, and the millions of other things that we get to do as human beings. I mean I don't have any powers beyond the pale, whatever that means. Anything that has seemed like a power, was actually more like something I was watching, and it was never really definite, which I kind've like. Who really wants power anyway? Very rarely, my teacher speaks about powers that he has come across. He has mentioned being able to make anyone wake up, by shifting a few things around energetically. He usually says this to make the point that it didn't do any good unless the true seeing is coming from the person. He's mentioned being able to heal someone, like flipping a switch. He says he can give people energetic experiences, but he doesn't really want to. None of this is a major part of his teaching. In the many hours that I have spent listening to him, I have only heard him mention things like this 5-6 times, and it was always to make some other point. His teaching really boils down to love and wisdom, with wisdom really taking the cake. Love seems to be more like a sign that we aren't getting stuck anywhere. I am assuming that powers would probably fall somewhere significantly below love, considering how little they are mentioned, and how quickly they are moved past when they are mentioned. So where does the necessity of powers come in? Is it just that they tend to come up as one moves deeper into truth, or are they something that needs to be specifically cultivated? And if they need to be specifically cultivated, why would one want to, if one is primarily interested in truth? Of course, these questions are beyond my experience, and I will remain with my experience no matter what the answer, but I am really interested in what your answer might be. A little bit more experience, I guess we might say. Thank you.

I'm going to try to deconstruct this a little bit. My mind is interested in this topic. Its good to know that we no longer have to argue about eternal time. Past, future, now... Whatever. I haven't really heard the future pointer, however. Though when I try it out, it seems to work. Truth is the future. It kind've settles down the struggle. It works by settling the searching mind... it gives it an answer that it can't do much with, except to sense what was there before it started searching for answers, as it was searching for answers, and after it heard this answer. Of course, if we are sloganeers, none of those pointers do any good. Hence the first few lines of Daodejing. The key seems to be a willingness to explore what these pointers open us up into (or down into as the case may be). If the power of now pointers don't do it for you, fine. Past works just as dandily. Future too, it seems. I guess we could make a whole philosophy upon the recognition of truth in the future. Something about being pulled along, unending change, inherent incompleteness of experience as limited beings. Acceptance of this incompleteness becoming acceptance of reality, which allows true enjoyment, and for once, genuine humanness. Something like "Partial means whole..." That Laozi guy always seems to have something up his sleeve, does he? I wonder why it never caught on. Perhaps its something to do with how quickly it extinguishes hope. At least with the power of now stuff we can notice how now always seems to be changing (though thats not the now that is being pointed to really... maybe... I don't know... I've never read The Power of Now.) and so we can convince ourselves that it might transform for the better, if only we can recognize the now enough. Now how does the past approach work? There is nothing that is not included in the past, including this moment and the future. It forces us to recognize a bigger One than most people will just by peering into "the now". It breaks us out of our identity as autonomous individuals. We are forced to acknowledge our ancestors, and well, umm everything, which is way bigger than we can even imagine, though we can have a lot of fun trying. What I personally don't much like about this approach is that most people interact with their past as a series of emotionally charged events. Non emotionally charged events don't stick out in the memory so much. Also, most people don't look at the past as something that can be changed. This adds up to most people looking at the past in a very static, conflicted way. Alright, maybe I'm being a little closed minded about this. I'll take the approach that now is actually a manifestation of the past, which is truth. Truth is in the past, but it is accessible now. That is actually pretty interesting. It has richness to it, that isn't necessarily immediately present with the now pointers. With the now pointers, there is a really common inclination to try and hold onto what is revealed in the now, since it can seem so ephemeral. With the past pointer its more about how much we are willing to explore (though it does have the downside of being connected to effort, which is just unsustainable for lazy people like me... I like my effort to be as effortless as possible... Maybe the past is your area of effortless effort? Or are you just teaching us a nice lesson?) Well anyway, thanks for the lesson. I might be playing with the past from time to time. Though something tells me that it all resolves away from any of these words, as it always does. BTW Qi and water... Is a lesson forthcoming on this? I'm imagining steam and liquid and ice. This seems to be a matter of physiology. Why is it the biggest secret of all, if you don't mind my asking? I am interested in your view. Also Jing and trees and seeds. My mind goes a few places with this. I don't really see that big of a distinction between a seed becoming a tree and a tree becoming a seed. They are both mysterious to me on an ultimate level. There are many frames that one might take to explain the processes involved. There are western scientific ones. Probably several taoist ones. Are you pointing to a frame? Or is this something to do with movement back in time (it doesn't seem to be what was implied, but just asking)? There is the idea of passing influence down generations... a thread of life, vibrating, playing a song... however subtle or not, concentrated or burst upon the world. Once more, your view would be appreciated.

Thanks for the clarification, Lin. Adyashanti

Piano. A month ago. Something I made up, more like listening to it than making it up.

I liked what you said earlier, about us all being drama queens. Thats a lot closer to the truth than most of what has been said here. But let the drama ensue... I just gave my honest response to the seminar, which you asked for, though I made my post before reading your request. My second post was just to clear up a point about what Max's claims are, and to give a taste for some of the things he says. I did not say anything about the practice, other than that it might still offer me something. I have not been doing it long enough to say much about it, but just to give you a better idea of where I am coming from, I'll share my initial impressions. I do not have difficulty opening to the Kunlun vibe. In a way it is very familiar to me. Some people speak of the ground shaking from doing Kunlun. I think of it as being more like being at sea. This is a feeling that started up for me from standing practice, a few years ago. The standing practice version was more subtle. Kunlun seems to uncouple that movement from the central channel. It takes the guide rails off. I get the whole snake/dragon thing, the lower dan tian being the top of the energetic body, etc... I can let the laughter out, sing, feel bliss, feel a cool feeling running through my body, feel like total shit, emotions coming up, past events, attachments, whatever. All that stuff and much more happened before I was introduced to Kunlun. It felt mostly natural, a very simple unfolding, with peaks and valleys, revealing something that has nothing to do with any particular peak or valley. The practice definitely has an effect that I can feel, as do many practices. We will see if this effect is one that I want to introduce on a more regular basis. I want to find ground again (which is just a connection with everything that is, which is what I am, which is reality, etc...) before I explore with this more. Energy stuff happens with awakening, but awakening is NOT about energy stuff. One of the main reasons that I will not be going to more seminars, is that the energy stuff is being presented as the real deal, whereas in my perspective, its just more stuff. Its about experiences, and what we can GET. I like experience. I like stuff. But truth always comes before experience for me. Thats just my quirk, and its a quality I look for in spiritual teachers. I like for them to be able to point toward truth on a fairly consistent basis. I don't need anyone to point me toward more stuff. I'm a bit too thick headed in my desire for more stuff to have someone keep encouraging that desire within me. I guess going to this seminar was about exploring my desire for more stuff. My response was, "Allright. I didn't like that. Time to get back to truth." Truth is more about an attitude, and does not preclude more stuff. I did not find that attitude at the seminar. Other peoples' mileage may vary. BTW My impression of the people running and helping out with the seminar was generally quite positive. They were nice people with good energy. They seemed to want to help, and Max seemed to really enjoy what he was doing, and sharing various things with people. This enjoyment does not equate with enlightenment or bringing students closer to truth in my opinion, however. I wish everyone luck with whatever they feel drawn to.

At the seminar I went to he claimed to be immortal. He said he had been pronounced dead twenty times. He mentioned something about documentation of this in Hong Kong, so he wasn't referring to past lives. Someone asked a question about his experience after his enlightenment, and he did not say anything about not being enlightened. He also mentioned finding a previously undiscovered pyramid half the size of Giza on the big island of Hawaii. He said he told some people about it, and the government took satellite photos of it, so they are going to get to it soon. But there are some other ones he didn't tell them about. Also, don't look for it on google earth, since it shows up as a white field, due to energy blocking the satellites. You need to be really good with the satellites, since the energy field goes down for only a minute and a half. I don't mind being told lies, since everything is a lie from a certain perspective. (Everything is right from a certain perspective too, Cam. I am not attacking you, or anyone's experience, here.) However, please don't ask me to believe you when you tell me lies. It makes me think you don't want me to see the truth. I could be wrong though. All of this could be true. I've only got my gut and my eyes and my intelligence to go by. Mostly my gut though.

I am not as energetically developed as Hundun apparently is. I certainly cannot see energy being streamed, but I will say that I was very much turned off by the seminar. This is my personal experience. I generally haven't been inclined to share my experience recently, since I am sure that I am not solidly in recognition of truth. But I can say that just about everything in me says that Max and MantraProductions are not for me. This could change, as anything can change, but I wouldn't bet anything on it, even at very high odds. I feel unbalanced. I felt unbalanced from the time I began considering the seminar, and it has only gotten worse until now. Being unbalanced is not necessarily bad, and I do not think it was the wrong decision for me to attend. I had something to learn, and perhaps Kunlun has something to offer me as a practice, but if there is a direction to truth, further involvement with these seminars is the opposite direction for me. Hundun: I'm sorry that I missed you at the seminar. One of the reasons I went was to talk to you. I wasn't expecting you to be with others, and I didn't really clue in to which person you might be until just before you left, when you were standing next to me holding the ball. I went outside and came back in looking to talk to you, and you were gone. I respect your not wanting to talk to me though, if that was the case. Bindo: good luck to you brother.

I'll be there. If anyone is interested in chatting, I'm 6'5", 30 y/o, brown hair, pretty thin, and wear roughly rectangular glasses.

Cafepress.com does this sort of thing.

Thanks Cat! That was wonderful. What is Erhebung, though? Maybe Sunshine knows?

I remember reading a book a few years ago by a Chinese scientist, who was trying to debunk Qigong research previously done in China. He referred to the incident when Yan Xin tried to put out a forest fire. He described the conditions that Yan Xin had lain out. Before Yan Xin would make the attempt, there could be no clouds in the sky, and the forecast could not be predicting rain. This happened, and he announced that he would make an attempt. Soon it started raining. The scientist's argument for why this wasn't a very convincing display was that it only rained for a few hours, and didn't completely extinguish the fire.

Hi Cam, I just finished a retreat and am processing that. My initial inclination is to not go to the seminar, but we will see what comes up in the next week or two. I'd definitely be down to meet up with some bums though.

Thats a good question. I would tend to say no. It is a bit ridiculous to be trying to define enlightenment, but what I am interested in and my experience seems to be pointing toward, is not a state. That enlightenment is a state is a really, really common misconception. Certain good states may tend to flow out of enlightenement, much as good actions naturally tend to flow out of enlightenment. The problem with saying that good actions flow out of enlightenment is that no one can say what a good action is. What a good action is changes, from moment to moment. This is why I like to look at the results of a person's actions. If they claim to be a spiritual teacher, a good area to look for results is: have any of their students realized a similar depth of truth? If so, how many? Just one (thats way better than most)? Or many? Do they foster depndency or do they help the student to reconnect with their own integrity? There are more questions to ask than that, such as basic questions we might ask about anyone we might choose to hang out with, but that is a good place to start. What seems to be happening with Osho, etc (about whom I know very little, but assuming what Thelerner's link stated wasn't made out of whole cloth) is that there is an opening to something beyond the mind. This opening is not fully explored. What does it mean to not "fully" explore the opening? The way I'm thinking right now, which may change, is that the initial openings are more like invitations. Some people seem to take one of those invitations and put it up on their wall, as a mandate to teach, or to act like an ass. True enlightenment goes much deeper than the initial tastes. Some people may go from the intital tastes to full enlightenment in a very short time, though for most others it seems to take several years. That is what several sources that I have some trust in state, and has been my experience. I have had many initial glimpses, but no full realization. I have seen others have glimpses, and then quickly make it into a object of the ego (as do I). Its way more common than not. I'm tempted to think that it pretty much always happens this way, even with the "greats". Its just not talked about much. Regardless, they tend to do a lot of sitting, or at least not teaching, even after their "full" realization. What is full realization? I can't say, but assuming glimpses contain a glimmer of truth, it is a very deep seeing through the movement of self. It is a dropping of the movement toward illusion. It goes right through our core, and we realize that there is no separation, in any aspect of our lives. We may pick up separation again, but we can never invest energy in it. This dropping of separation is actually the beginning of a never ending deepening of that realization. It never becomes frozen, which is why no one can describe it. But like I said, I can't say. Its a good question, that we can only truly explore by our own light.

Makes sense to me. If realization doesn't permeate our actions then it hasn't gone very far. I'm just beginning to explore this iceberg. It is interesting to watch all the ways that I inflict violence on those around me, and it is really interesting that I was almost completely unconscious of it before. This is where non-doing really pays off. To see it, and instead of reacting against it, to just watch it transform. Our example can change things faster than any words, or any intent to change. An indicator that makes sense to me of someone's level of realization is the effect that he or she has on those around him or her. This effect isn't in the short term sense of experiences and changes of state, but in the long term sense of how the overall direction of peoples' lives are affected. Of course, we all have different views about what a positive outcome might be. This is where we need to search in ourselves and find our deepest honesty. Most people seem to stop short, at a desire for some thing, or some state, and thats the birth of illusion. It is a lack of integrity, and there's really not much we can do about it, but to find our own integrity, and not to give it up as soon as we enter relationship. The easist way to give it up for me is to think about someone else's seeming lack of integrity. I am starting to realize that it is my own, and that is fascinating. Its like realizing I've got a few hundred more limbs than i suspected... or at least another set of toes. Thats the sense. As an aside, I always feel the desire to somehow indicate that everything I say is just words, that there is no "full" realization here, and even if there was, they'd still just be words. But thats assuming someone might think otherwise. Thats the beauty of words, that they solve no problems.

You might check out the link Michael posted on another thread. (http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html ) Its written by a guy who remains convinced that Osho was enlightened, though he equates enlightenment with the ability to induce mystical experiences in disciples. Other than that positive claim, it grittily details Osho's verifiable failings. Its a sobering account of how mystical experience can breed megalomania, and not just a little bit. It brings up the question of what is really true in spirituality.

hmmm....

Fixate on nothing. Meaning: don't fixate. Follow the movement within stillness. Enjoy yourself. Or fixate on whatever you happen to be fixated on... you might ask yourself how its working out from time to time. I fixate all the time, and I'm not proud of it. I might not exist though, so I guess it might be alright.

When I saw the title of this thread I thought, "Is he going to say that more is the way to less, and hence is better for us?" I guess the whole less being better thing is that ingrained in me. But maybe there is some truth to your title?