Todd

Ok. But before you spend twenty years on it (not that there would be anything wrong with that), what is practice?

Cam, Maybe it isn't so much a matter of seeing (which you already have done) but of allowing. Maybe its just a matter of allowing everything that you now see as problem, to be anything but a problem. What is it, if it is not problem? If we find an answer for that, how does it feel? What was more alive? The question, before we knew, or whatever it is that we are using as placeholder for this question? What is the question? What is the question before we ask it?

Laughing at grasping What is being laughed at? Does grasping exist?

across rainbow bridge into pillowy cloud peaks where did the ground go?

In the early part of my days playing pool for money, I developed a pattern. I would lose early and win late. This is a very stressful way to live as a pool player, since it takes longer, uses more energy, and is dangerous if I happen to run out of money early. I only ran out of money once, and that was because I went against my better instincts in making a game, but I was down to my last hundred more than once. This pattern played itself out often enough that I became quite familiar with the dynamic. The beginning remained a mystery for a long time, but I came to know the bottom, the turning point, very clearly. This is because the turning point is clarity, and the beginning was delusion. Basically, what I began to notice, was that I was in resistance to the situation I was in. I told myself all sorts of stories, "I'm so much better than this guy. I shouldn't have missed that ball. I'm too tired to play. This is just bad luck. I just need to play faster. I just need to play slower. I need to concentrate. I need to relax. He's going to wilt under the pressure. We aren't playing for enough money. I hate him. I hate myself. I suck. I'm the best player who ever lived. Just accept that fact and all will be well..." The stories were infinite, and I was quite creative in exploring them. Eventually, whether due to absolute necessity (this my last hundred), or due to some grace of intelligence, I would stop telling the stories, except perhaps one last story, such as "I'm playing like crap," but immediately following that was, "OK." As soon as that "OK" arrived, and I let it take me over, then the other guy was done. It might take a few shots for things to turn around, but a force to win, because it was in opposition to nothing, carried me through. I didn't really know what was happening at the time, but I knew that it felt pretty damn good, and it fascinated me, since I couldn't figure out how this whole process worked. It was my dream to be in that question with another who was in that question, and to play a really true game. Needless to say, I didn't just have to find that "OK" once. Every day I had to find it, and in each new level of competition I had to find it. And, of course, if I found it in pool, didn't necessarily mean that I found it in the rest of my life, though for certain I was looking for it there too... I think a lot of us have some experience with this "OK," since it is universal. It happens at every level. This "OK" is what drives us in our various pursuits, including cultivation, realization, and transmission. It is the good stuff, but when I was playing pool, I had to go through the losing in the beginning, since I was not aware of how I was pushing the "OK" away. And after I got through with riding a wave of "OK," I would promptly take credit for it, and begin telling stories in which I had said "OK" and so I could rule the pool world... or at least not have to lose three excruciating sets to Mike before I began beating him next time. I had reached a new level. Maybe so, maybe not. I began to realize that there is no limit to how bad I could play, as long as I insisted on telling my story... the center of which, was the idea of me. Well anyway, thats a long story, but I tell it to highlight a dynamic. Can we find a parallel dynamic in our own lives? Can we find it in the history of the world, including its religions? Are these dynamics in any way different? Every time that I said "OK," and felt that "OK" as an unstoppable force, it was the true "OK." And how many times did I throw it away? And how many ways can I throw it away? Is anything better than the "OK"? And remember, what preceded the "OK" was usually something like "I'm playing like crap," though as I got better it could even be "I'm starting to slip a little." The transformation was seeing that fact, and letting go of the story. The story could only keep me in misery, or drag me down to misery, until it started hurting too much to hold on.

and zen of poetry the goddess of laughter sings strings of lambent tears

Hi Steve, I wasn't in a mood to read much, but I looked through Steve's site, and read a bit of what was there, as well as couple articles that he had links too (which weren't "spiritual" really). Later I found this link to MP3s of a seminar that he did, called Self-Deception and the Fires of Transformation. I listened to the first 11 tracks. It speaks pretty directly to my experience at this moment. I like his way of working with people. It reminds me a lot of Loch Kelly (who lives in NYC, in case you felt like checking him out), who covers similar territory, with a similar style, with a similar voice even. It can be frustrating, since he doesn't really feed the "wisdom" mind. Actually, they are fairly different in the words and concepts they use, but they are both exploring new ways of interacting with groups of people. Part of me enjoys that, and part of me is repelled by it, and I am not sure which part I like better. I think this is reflected in how the groups that interact with them respond. Sometimes a vibrant expression of truth comes out, and sometimes we retreat back to elaborate concepts in an effort to not meet what is. Their way of teaching really puts the onus upon us, which is where it always was, but we have to really face that if we want to enjoy what they facilitate. Thanks for the heads up.

Actually, it was addressed to you, but you can ignore it. I think I am going to retreat from posting for a bit. There is a little too much attack and defend in me, and its not fun.

As long as we are doing the quoting thing-- "Form is emptiness; emptiness is form; form is not other than emptiness; emptiness is not other than form." --The Heart Sutra Are you saying that what is being referred to there is an illusion?

Aren't they similar? Certainly, meditation would be boring if all that came up were physical pain. I was more referring to allowing a pain to build past the breaking point. A smarter thing to do is to let the pain flow through before it gets to that point, but I'm not always that smart. And we have areas of resistance that we don't know we have until pain makes them obvious. Are you trying to tell me to meditate?

Meditation is a great tool. I know what you are talking about. My relationship to pain changed significantly when I decided to finally sit through whatever pain arose, even if I fainted (assuming that my knees were grounded and I wasn't destroying them!). Hagar's post awhile back in the "Is standing meditation overrated?" thread was the straw that broke the camel's back on that one. (Thanks Hagar!) Right now, I am exploring not meditating, since I am curious how much of my meditation was inspired by grasping. Its kind've turning things around. Before I meditated to explore my reaction to pain, and to all of the other impulses, now I don't meditate to explore my reaction to pain, and all of the other impulses. I like meditating much more than not meditating, so I am exploring my grasping onto meditating and its effects. What remains? Its kind've a meditation.

Yeah, curiosity is just a word. I use it because it is something that we can all relate to. That is useful, because truth is something that we can all relate to, even if we do not know it. We might say that curiosity is what remains when the mind is stilled, but it is important to realize that it is also here, now. It actually drives us. It is not separate from our day to day drives. It is merely filtered through assumptions and conditioning, but there is a pure curiosity that does not refer to the self, or ego, so much. This is what operates in a child who expresses natural wonder, or in us whenever we aren't thinking about things in a fixed way. When we realize that it is present and available, we can begin to look for and notice it. There are other paths to this, and I can't say which is right. They all have their traps, such as the ego taking the question and trying to use it to get something. Such as the ego trying to assume the stance of curiosity. All of that has a certain energy, but if we let it settle down, what is flowing through us?

Yeah, I read it over a year ago. I also read its sequel, though not the last in the series. My roommate at the time had them. I enjoyed them a lot. I became interested in this Jed McKenna character, and when I looked into it, the story began to seem more and more like fiction. Thats not surprising since one of the qualities of an enlightened being on his list (assuming I remember correctly) is to use untruth in order to teach. If I come across the last book, I might read it. Edit: I especially liked the way he pointed to a thread of realization in America, pre-hinduism, pre-buddhism, pre-taoism. I helps to see that this is a human thing, even if it doesn't take off in as obvious ways.

Yes. Thank you for sharing. I am finding it difficult to reply. In one sense, the experiences that you share are more intense than any that I have had. In another sense, I can relate to a fundamental shift in perception as the result of contact with truth. This shift is not shared by most others, and so they do not act from it, and it can be difficult to be in a world where this sort of dissonance between my perception and other's actions is pretty much constant. However, my perception is not an ability. It is a force that moves through me, that I can choose to ignore (and suffer) or acknowledge (and transform). Is this the force that led to your abilities? Is that force alive within you now? Is there anything wrong with it? I can understand not trusting it when it did not lead to particularly pleasant outcomes. I had a similar experience when I was younger. I didn't know what was happening. There was awe (which is like joy and bliss, but maybe a bit quieter) and a movement to transform, but I had skipped ahead of the world, and it wouldn't follow me. I slowly began to doubt myself, which may have been for the better, because I was pretty screwed up despite a deep perception. Right now, I am in a process of returning my attention to this force. I am forced into it. There is a cool quote from Kafka, "You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid." I am exploring whether holding back from the dissonance between my perception and other's actions might be a suffering that I can avoid. Perhaps this holding back creates the dissonance. Perhaps letting the suffering into my heart and letting my heart break will allow truly effective compassion. Its dangerous, but I'm running out of viable options. It doesn't seem to want to wait much longer. Who knows though? I might feel differently when I can I feel it actually breaking. PS Here is another quote from Kafka... found it while use "Search" to find the other one: "We too must suffer all the suffering around us. We all have not one body, but we have one way of growing, and this leads us through all anguish, whether in this or in that form. Just as the child develops through all the stages of life right into old age and to death (and fundamentally to the earlier stage the later one seems out of reach, in relation both to desire and to fear), so also do we develop (no less deeply bound up with mankind than with ourselves) through all the sufferings of this world. There is no room for justice in this context, but neither is there any room either for fear of suffering or for the interpretation of suffering as a merit." Sorry to throw so many quotes at you.

Xuesheng, Thank you. I study with Adyashanti. Also Mukti and Loch Kelly, who filled in for Adya on a retreat during his sabbatical to recover from Bell's Palsy. I wouldn't really call it studying though. Exploring is a better word. My practice? Nothing fixed. I have consistently stood or sat for 5 or so years. Right now I am pausing that... so nothing fixed. Natural curiosity?

How do you know this? I am suggesting that there is something that registers everything, and the thing that is not aware when there is no thought, might not be so solid after all. I am not here to convince you, since we all find this out in our own way. If your goal is to reach a state, then meditation is wonderful means. What I am pointing toward is what you are. You already are it. So am I. So who wins the Coke? (And I'm not saying, don't meditate!)

What happens in deep sleep? Our world appears to disappear. We have no recollection of any thought process (this is deep sleep.. not dreaming sleep). This is a product of the stilling of thoughts. It is natural so we don't make much of it, but when we don't get this sleep, we begin to notice the power that it has. Reaching such a state through meditation is freeing, since it reveals a polarity of consciousness, and it probably has some other functions which I can't speak to with any degree of authority. I haven't spent 2 hours per day in nirvakalpa samadhi. In this I am going more on stories. Such as Buddha mastering the 8th Jhana, being told that that was the highest state, but knowing within himself that his search was for something else. Or my teacher telling me that we all reach nirvakalpa samadhi in our sleep. We just don't know it, or know that we know it. To reach it in meditation is an opportunity to recognize that though there is this seeming cessation, that there is something that is aware of that cessation. This noticing can only happen through natural curiosity. Imagine what would have happened to the Buddha's story if he had not had this natural curiosity. He could have just practiced the 8th Jhana until he died. Instead, he continued his search. In this perspective, natural curiosity IS the path. Everything else is scenery. Thats not to say that achieving nirvakalpa samadhi cannot be a manifestation of natural curiosity, and hence, quite vital. If we abandon natural curiosity for the sense of peace that arises in that state, then we have lost the path, however.

Should one not use the mind in exploration? Its a fine line. Philosophy on the one hand, a never ending stream of words, referring to other words. On the other hand we have sleep. This is about as close as we can get to no thoughts. I find that there is a third option, which is natural curiosity. This natural curiosity may express itself with a question, or with a dropping of assumptions and simply looking. Trying to suppress natural curiosity is tying our hands behind our backs. Natural curiosity is actually the most powerful thing that we have. If someone can ask a question in all sincerity, without expecting a definite answer, they are doing more to walk their path than someone who meditates for two hours every day in nirvakalpa samadhi. If we don't have the stability to stay with what the questions opens up, then it cannot work its magic, however. So there are two sides to every coin.

Taomeow, I am confused. You mention two experiences of enlightenment. Would you go into more detail? Its just a word, so I am interested in what inspires you to use it. It might help me to understand where you are coming from when you speak of the realities revealed by enlightenment. Are you referring to your ongoing experience post-enlightenment, or an aspect of the experience itself? ... Some of us thrive on intensity. And it is what we are after all. Its not like we can escape it, even if we don't pay attention. The attention appears to transform as well.

Freeform, I like your way of describing a road to wisdom-insight. Not much to hold onto there. One can go through the senses, or beyond the senses... either way, basic awareness is living this life, and it is in touch with so much more than we can imagine. I guess we pick our poison to let it in, to let it catch on to its own inexhaustible mystery. About being wrong... You give some good advice. That advice follows itself, and I find myself in wonder. The natural movement of wonder seems to be expression. This expression passes through conditioning that remains. It is through allowing this expression, and letting it go, that the expression becomes clearer. I have found that realizations without some form of expression die quickly. This is not to say that the form of expression I am engaged in is the best for me right now. I am still learning to crawl. I learn by being completely wrong, and then by staying in what that reveals. I cannot force the wrongness, and I cannot prevent the movement to "rightness". I place my attention on the increasing movement of truth into the foreground, with all of the messiness that that entails. Its a pretty wacky ride. I've got a lot to (un)learn though. Here's a cool chapter from the Taoteching (61).. not sure what anyone will get out of it though: The great state is a watershed the confluence of the world the female of the world through stillness the female conquers the male in order to be still she needs to be lower the great state that is lower govers the small state the small state that is lower is governed by the great state some lower themselves to govern some lower themselves to be governed the great state's only desire is to unite and lead others the small state's only desire is to join and serve others for both to achieve their desire the greater needs to be lower

We might just have differing approaches. Right now I am finding it fruitful to place my attention on awareness, to rest in my own being, and let the changes wash over me. I follow some changes, or many changes, but there is increasing confidence in the awareness. I am noticing that the changes have their own pace, that I would not like to change. When I do want to change it, it causes me suffering, and hinders the changes. I make no claim to depth, especially in the assembly of completely different perceptions of the world. I merely wanted to share what I have been finding fruitful. I apologize if it has caused you consternation. I also apologize if my denseness prevents me from appreciating the pearls you are presenting.

You're teaching yourself... and me. Thank you. _/\_

Miss ya too. We're just playing word games, but I'm gonna create a difference between knowing that we can't not be it, and exploring that we can't not be it. Knowing is something that the mind does when it wants to get something. It is in reference to the past, when this very thing seemed to help. We remember that we realized that we can't not be it, and nothing needs to be done but to enjoy. We then think that this realization is what caused us to rest and to enjoy. We try to recreate it. It becomes a form of knowledge. The deceptive part here is that this knowledge actually seems to work, to some extent. We can point it out to others, and they seem to get a kick out of it if they are in the right mood. We point it out to ourselves, and experience similar results. What ends up happening, though, is the return continually diminishes. Both the depth and the duration of the experiences called up by such knowledge decrease. This is because the knowledge is formed and wielded by the grasping mind. It actually strengthens itself by wielding the tool that it thinks will diminish itself. It wants to diminish itself, because it remembers that there were a lot of groovy feelings associated with that, and maybe its not feeling so good at the moment. The other option is exploration. Exploration is not based upon memory, or at least it goes beyond memory. It goes beyond the known. The explore something we must let go of all preconceived ideas, of all mind-knowings actually. This can get a little difficult to do when we have seasoned ourselves so thoroughly in spiritual experiences and teachings. Just as soon as we start out in any direction, we are like, "Hey! I've seen this before. I just do this, and that, and I'll end up here!" Or else, we are like "Nahhh I've been down that path, and it isn't what I need right now. The way to truth is obviously over there." There is a good side to this, because eventually our only option is give up that way of thinking, even if only for a few moments. Eventually, we give up looking to the mind, to past knowledge, to guide us, and we get back to the wondrous life of an explorer of this.