deci belle

Becoming water is the function of nonpsychological awareness. Stilling emotional consciousness extinguishes the baseless temperament, giving birth to metal, true lead, real knowledge. There is an applicable phrase found in the alchemic treatises, "the child gives birth to the mother". Here it would mean that by recognizing the real and attaining the function of metal, one then assumes the capacity of water, which is another word for true unity, undifferentiated, primal, selflessly aware. When real knowledge arises out of water, the sense of objective awareness cuts through phenomenal appearances, allowing the saving of energy which is then refined by not using it. The rule is, refine vitality into energy, refine energy into spirit, refine spirit into openness, then empty out openness to enter the tao in reality. ed note: add last four sentences

When chris comes to know that being able to claim that the knowledge of not-knowing is really what has already debased ignorance, he will no longer bother wishing anyone other than himself the need for "help". It is really the conceit of ignorance which compels that kind of rhetoric, not the ruthless compassion of enlightening being. If you wish to help, chris …heal thyself first, then feel free to contribute to this thread. Please let go of your hang-up over people who have no problem effectively expressing insight into buddha-nature. You are already this in spite of your ignorance. Don't plant seeds of future retribution by harboring animosity towards those who know they are, and act like it. In other words, a lack of intellectualism on your part will, a priori, eliminate the "mental"~ then what tension is there? I hope that you will continue posting on Harmonious Emptiness' thread because your approach is not up to par for this topic yet. I started this thread for people who are up to speed in terms of entering the inconceivable. Harmonious' thread is more of an introduction to Complete Reality praxis. All it takes is an instant of insight to be blameless forever— then you will know that no one has a self to garner blame. You are not furthering the purpose of this thread because you do not know, as Clarity does know, what the purpose is. Please honor my wishes in this regard, chris… merci. ed note: add "Don't plant seeds of future retribution by harboring animosity towards those who know they are, and act like it" in 4th paragraph

"The method of alchemy involves gathering a bit of true fire of open awareness within conscious knowledge and refining out the adulterating energy of confused feelings, then gathering the true spiritual water of desirelessness within real knowledge and extinguishing the baseless [unrooted?] burning of the temperament. When the true fire [of open awareness] and spiritual water [of desirelessness] join into one, [desirelessness] water and [open awareness] fire balance each other, true feeling and spiritual essence combine, and real knowledge and conscious knowledge cleave to one another; then sense is itself essence and essence is itself sense. Utterly conscious of reality, consciousness utterly real, the unified energy functions the same as heaven and earth. This is likened to lead and mercury being forged into spiritual granules; when the firing is complete, the medicine is perfected and turns violet-gold, never again to change." —Liu I-Ming (18th century), from his commentary on Chang Po-tuan's "400 Words on the Gold Elixir" (10th~11th century). Titled, The Inner Teachings of Taoism, trans. Thomas Cleary, Shambhala. ISBN 0-87773-363-5 "The method of alchemy involves gathering a bit of true fire of open awareness within conscious knowledge and refining out the adulterating energy of confused feelings, then gathering the true spiritual water of desirelessness within real knowledge and extinguishing the baseless [unrooted?] burning of the temperament." Starting backwards, there is HE's bracketed reference to the word baseless. The baseless burning of the temperament denotes the unreal characteristic of the easily conflagrated human mentality flying off into fiery states burning up the cool dispassion of the mind of tao and destroying the base of real sane energy which is unborn impersonal awareness. Here, the word "baseless" is just confirming that the temperament is conditional, not primary, dependent on the personality and utterly false: baseless. Continuing in a backwards fashion, what extinguishes the baseless conflagratory temperament is "the true spiritual water of desirelessness within real knowledge. These are all related codified terms of the Complete Reality lexicon. Liu's entire quote above is really an all-inclusive crystalization of the epic alchemic teaching exposed in Chang's classics. This true spiritual water of desirelessness within real knowledge contains three terms: true spiritual water, desirelessness, real knowledge. All of these terms denote yang within yin. In terms of the trigrams, yang within yin is Water. This is Vitality (sense). This is the body. It is yin, but contains within it the true sense of real knowledge. In the system of trigrams, whether it be comprised of yin, yang, or a combination of both, whenever there are more of one than the other, the characteristic of a trigramatic symbol is determined by the out-numbered line. In the trigram symbol for water, there are two broken yin lines and one solid yang line. Therefore, water is a yang trigram. It is yang because the true spiritual water of desirelessness within real knowledge is firm, adamant, immovable, unequivocal, unbending, solid and heavy. It sinks readily beyond the reach of conscious knowledge, essence, energy, fire. The object of alchemy is to bring the two things, fire and water, together and force them to fuse into one …fuse back into one to revert the false self into the true self of nonoriginated aware selfless nature. There are countless other references to numbers, animals, internal organs, times, temperature, people, stars, planets, seasons, cardinal directions, etc. These are not important. What is important is that water produces metal. Metal is true lead, the real knowledge of the mind of tao, the desireless nonpsychological awareness that extinguishes the baseless temperament of the false human mentality. Please always remember that none of this exists as such. Alchemy is a device comprised of devices to help people free themselves from the false in order to see the real by bringing out the real in the midst of the false. It is just the way it is, and no one knows why. If it weren't for the false, there would be no way to discern the the real. It is all mind. So the water of real knowledge of the mind of tao (true lead) extinguishes the fire of false awareness (conditioned temperament). There are countless analogies employed in the classic alchemic works by famous and unknown prior illuminates established to help people see reality. The basis of alchemic work is stilling the body. Stilling the emotional body and forgetting feelings produced by sensory perceptions is the way to gather the firm impersonal nonpsychological knowledge that cannot be fooled. This is because the body is truly other. When you have stilled the body, you have gained the impersonal power of the body— then it has no way to over-power the true self by cloying emotional consciousness. When you have arrived at stilling the body, you are as if desireless, and no one can fool you. Metal is firm impersonal objectivity. You can no longer deceive yourself either. In fact, desirelessness is the means to attain the awareness that sees the personality as itself false. This is true knowledge, impersonally objective— the working definition of selfless function in terms of enlightening being: having reclaimed the vital sense to know without deliberation. ed note: add "by cloying emotional consciousness" to end of penultimate paragraph

Yes it's a good thing that Clarity cuts loose like that and spells it out directly from time to time!!

My original thought for this thread was to go through Liu's quote a bit. Harmonious Emptiness has even provided brackets within the quote he chose from Liu's commentary on Chang Po-tuan's classic work, in the hope of furthering the clarification Liu's crystalization of Complete Reality praxis for those who wish to penetrate its meaning and take up working with essence directly.

Absolutely, HE …and I especially liked the 1st paragraph of your post above because I do not know anything about the subtle-body phenomena taking place except for occasionally certain things happen in the context of non-physical "organ functions" that I do notice in the form of spontaneous energy shifts from one to another …not to mention the other amazing phenomena that occur within the vague context of one's human form also described by Chang and others.

I am so pleased with the responses from everyone…❤

It depends on each individual. I say the body goes along for the ride because it's spontaneous at a certain level of refinement. What is important for people to realize is that attachment to energy work without establishing the effective conscious development of nonpsychological work is an extremely common mistake. The posts are not really taking the cue from the statement by Liu in the OP. This is understandable as people do not have a grounding in the refinement of mind establishing true practice. It is neither thought nor action. It is no wonder people miss the opportunity to see and experience what Liu is saying in plain language. Since people have no affinity for this relationship with reality, and feel the relentless need to act, it is a default mode to work with energy as it employs psychosomatic processes. The key to Complete Reality teachings is the dictum that if you work with the created, this is not it. The body is created, and so is the human mentality in its function as the seat of the false identity. When discussing any of the Complete Reality teachings, it is to be automatically assumed that nothing described is remotely attached to energy work or just sitting. One uses everyday ordinary situation to cull the real in the midst of the false. Should this be so difficult to grasp? What's wrong with discussing the heart of the matter as plainly presented by Liu in his commentary of Chang's classic document? ed note: typo in 2nd sentence

There's one called International Zen Forum (maybe?) that I feel is very good. The people were cool, I thought. But I didn't hang out very long. I don't do discussion so much, as you all know. Very heavily oriented towards a strict observation of who is a real teacher or not, on the level of some sort of official criteria of Zen-dom …you know, like Zen-teaching ministries. Not a bunch of no-account bums like we are. I might have seen chris d there, maybe he can say more about that forum.

This is an excerpt from a recent PM… On the topic of fetish, you've mentioned desire in some of your posts and following it but not all the way. What did you mean by that? Yes. Following desires without stepping over the line? Well, an openness and sincere vulnerability to a genuinely human awareness of natural subtleties that enter our lives is to be cultivated in order to expand our sphere of practice that enables us to penetrate the world constituting the real on the nonpsychological level. That's not another level~ it is just what is, as it is for ordinary people, but without our having to step over the line in terms of following our unique relationships and endeavors to the extreme of creating future karmic cycles on account of our selfish desires. Living totally committed to presence is just this not stepping over the line. There is absolutely no reason to ever deny one's desire. Desire is real. But habitually seeking and satisfying the endless streams of habitually self-reflective stimulous-desires is unreal. It is not a matter of being vulnerable for a reason, though. Being vulnerable is a way of saying, among other things, that one is still and empty and satisfied with the way things are without thinking up ideas for what would be, could be, should be just to keep up the façade of not being (or even finding out) who one really is right now. Just being really naked to the world, without any momentum or habit energy to hide behind is a way of understanding the meaning of being truly vulnerable. Recognizing desire is in seeing potential. Not stepping over the line is in not using it. This is the secret to absorbing potential. Alchemic practice takes up desire and potential, vitality and real knowledge, lead and water, yang and advancing as the aspect of following in some capacity in terms of describing the firing process at various levels. Yin, in this scenario, is essential nature which has the function of beckoning knowledge. Yin is solitary seeing that no one else sees. Seeing is wordless seeing. True seeing is seeing the entirety of creation as a dark void. Occasionally, a point of light is discerned in dimness. Seeing a point of light within the dim void of creation is recognizing the real. Desire is real, but only in not using it does it turn into elixir. This is entry into the inconceivable. It is everyday and it is natural, but there is nothing ordinary about it in the sense that ordinary people do not see. Reality already is. That's why taoist tradition calls such actualized people who see, real humans. This is because real humans see and partake of the real which is accomplished by abiding in the midst of the delusion of temporal existence without construing karmic energy in the three times. All people have enlightened mind as the essence of awareness. The only reason for self-refinement is that the runaway mentality must be reined in enough to trick it into forgetting to think about… anything anymore (out of pure habit based on existential fear). Moreover, enlightening being has no reason to think itself into being as a virtual running sore of ideas for kinetic future being out of sheer habit. It is a total waste of energy turning which only changes the Unborn into death itself. Enlightening being is dedicated to now, so there is no future. Other than adapting to circumstance as is— enlightening being is actually (were it known for what it is), expressing nonbeing in the midst of being. This is the day-job of enlightening beings (for those of you who have ever wondered). This is because Reality as is, is just this way, and no one knows why. This is following the Tao. What else could be? To talk about it in terms of the absolute would be nonsense, and to describe it in terms of the created would be impossible. So we just effectively adapt impersonally to circumstances openly and sincerely as they evolve without creating karmic bonds by following our desires without stepping over the line. Alchemically speaking, following desire is advancing the fire. Advancing the fire is like accepting the challenge to audition the potential of a new cycle which is preceded and entered into by silent illumination in the midst of ordinary situations. It is the fire of silent illumination which is advanced because before the moment it is seen, there is no fire. Once it is seen, it is then advanced. It is wordless knowledge that one endeavors to prove in an actual situation without knowing the twists and turns the situation will inevitably engender. One advances the fire because it is the time to do so. When it is time to stop, one stops. In the same way, one follows desire when it arises. When one sees the line, one then stops advancing the fire. Advancing and withdrawing, one subtly follows the process, carefully operating the furnace of creation and cauldron containing the medicines to be refined. In accepting the potential of a new cycle, we go along with it to see what it really is without projecting our habitual psychological patterns onto the situation engendered by the volatile real potential inherent in the newly arisen cycle of possibility fueled by karmic energy. Karmic energy is real energy mixed up with polluted (created) energy. Alchemy is recognizing the real in the midst of the false and absorbing the real by refining out the false by not acting on the false. This is also the same as following desires without going over the line. If you want potential, you already have it (are it). Just don't act on it unless you are absolutely sure. The secret is that the world is not separate from the individual. This is the reality behind oneself being potential. In not acting on potential, one gathers (retains) the medicines to refine them in the immaterial center of one's being that has no location, which is sealing the elixir away in the empty vessel, void of intellectualism. Not letting so much as a spark leak out. It is all a matter of seeing the ordinary as potential. Why? Because that's what it really is. Treat it as such and you can become a wizard. Somehow, in the course of one's affair with Power, one gives the world what it wants (following desire), without losing one's self (by acting on potential in such a way as to perfectly match creation). The word match has a very special connotation. That is all I can say about it. Alchemic tradition calls this subtlety stealing potential. It is really like this. The imagery of going into the dragon's or tiger's lair and stealing the jewel or pearl comes from the ancient tradition of wizardry. Immortals, wizards, buddhas and enlightening beings are all getting away with their lives, over and over and over in the course of endless transformations. The terms are based on the reality. It is a stupendous secret. This is the development and activation of real knowledge. Ordinary people don't know this, nor is it necessarily desirable that they do. So those with the aspiration to discover who they really are, operate on the level of ordinary people. That is, they accept their enlightening function exactly as a ordinary person in the midst of ordinary people would do, because ultimately, all people are the same, as they all function by virtue of MInd, which is essentially enlightened. Wizards recognize the light clothed as it is as desire, and follow it in reverse. Worldlings follow desires as the light of their lives in the normal course of creation. One gains immortality by endless transformations in the course of events and the other accedes to endless cycles of birth and death, in this life, not to mention the next. ed note: add "you can" in 18th paragraph; add " over and over and over in the course of endless transformations" in the 20th paragraph

One matches the quality of developmental evolution within the context of situations with attention, whether it be unassuming, keen, gathering, dispersing, empty, receding, etc. It is the situation itself that directs energy. One matches the energy with equipoise, without bias or inclination. This is using potential to match creation. One uses the potential inherent in each situation to match the creative manifestation without entering into speculative relationships. Speculative relationships are based on fear and avarice, joy and cloying habit-energy, passing moods and circumstantial concepts relative to self and other (to name a few). If one waits as a matter of course, there is just finding out what happened. Waiting is the natural process of clarification unfolding. Dealing with situations through others' eyes and responding in accord with the time is "planting lotuses in fire, going through endless transformations". This is what I mean by the term waiting. When is one not waiting? In seeing desire, one waits on desire's unfolding. In terms of Power, waiting is knowing what one is waiting for. Immortalism is resting in the endless unfolding of the essence of desire, which is uncreated. Even the course of creative evolution is a complete mystery to talk about love. How much more so is the immaterial Way of buddhas? So the constant is properly referred to as the celestial mechanism in terms of the medicinal energy of the two things. It's just reality not relative to self and other. When one has the mind to see reality in this way, it is easy to discern the times inherent in every cycle; the cycles within cycles are no different. There is no concern for keeping track of such things. Maintaining a subtle concentration mindful of nonpsychological awareness, one ceases personal interpretations while adapting. When one ceases habituation to interpretative perspectives altogether, this is what makes selfless adaption possible. By this I mean when one sees through others' eyes, one sees others' desire and has the means to adapt to the situation relative to that. This is waiting without admitting bias or inclination. When one sees desire in this way, reality is always complete. Alchemy is, for the most part, just accomplishing knowledge without thinking about anything. Buddhism is just activating the mind without dwelling on anything (its contents). The critical aspect of advancing and withdrawing the fire in terms of the celestial mechanism is just a matter of timing based on the energy of desire. Every cycle is a buildup and a letdown. Since there are cycles within cycles, it is not a cagey maneuver when I say stealing potential is like leaving when the time is ripe. It is not a matter of volition. When it is just the way it is, action is selfless~ that is, spontaneous. When one doesn't want anything, everything is more than enough. One watches the elements acting in concert and then one returns (to emptiness) at the right time. The medicinal energy of the two things is like not speculating on circumstantial outcomes, then not dwelling on the arising of potential, in terms of virtuous accord. Who knew this to be the correct medicinal proportion of yin and yang of immortalism? Seeing this is knowledge. It is not that one does anything with it. The knowledge of the celestial mechanism has no peer. Neither doing nor not doing, one gathers the medicines to refine the elixir, in the pot pairing fire and water. Following desires without stepping over the line is another way to say the same thing without getting into specifics. It is not being personally involved; it is being impersonally involved. Acting on knowledge is most often a matter of withdrawal~ no matter what it looks like to the world at large. When one follows desires without stepping over the line, it is a strategy for amplifying potential …concentrating vitality into energy by the impersonal adaption of forgetting feelings, then refining energy into spirit by not entertaining intellectualism. When the time is right, one recedes and waits for spiritual potential to clarify by returning to innocence. This is the period described in the manuals as "ten months of incubation". The process itself is cycles within cycles. But ultimately, nothing happens. When you see this, you finally know what happened in terms of the first line of the 3rd paragraph of this post. This is one cycle comprising cycles. There is a further development called emptying out openness, which is a spontaneous movement of the celestial mechanism. There are no words. Padmasambhava refers to this as the ever self-refreshing pristine awareness renewing itself. …that works for me. ed note: add "It is not a matter of volition. When it is just the way it is, action is selfless~ that is, spontaneous" in the 10th paragraph

I will say this much, goatguy~ just because it is your wisdom that enables your endeavor in this vein doesn't exclude the impersonal. It is the aspect of the impersonal that truly inspires this effort. I speak from the perspective of the impersonal itself. The particulars are of no interest to me. This is a breeze of utmost familiarity. How does one go one go on to prove the note of antiquity for the benefit of those who do not hear? I hear. The impersonal has no grounding in culture. It is the source of culture. As for interpretation~ I do not have any part of it. Who would interpret the breeze? Knowledge is immediate. I am beyond doubt. I encourage your effort because it is true. Its product is beyond craft. This is inspired, goatguy.❤

…sigh❤ merci, ma copine!!

Thank you, dawei❤ dee said: If we go to the root of desire and stay there without thinking, the potential of the source of desire in its multifarious manifestations will be stored in the homeland of nothing-whatsoever. This is the Center; it has no location. This is where one returns when the energy of nonorigination is replete and one sees one's nature and plants the seed of buddahood in the Great Void and spins the Dharma Wheel oneself. This is the true root of desireless desire which is so due to the functional expression of selfless knowledge. This is the divine. In the interim, one is "gathering potential" by recognizing the real in the midst of the false. One does this for no reason at all, only assessing situations impersonally and adapting to conditions objectively to abide in the midst of karmic evolution without perpetuating the evolution of polluted energy. How this is done is by being vulnerable to desires and then withdrawing at the right time. Each time depends on each unique situation because the only constant is the pattern of created cycles manifesting by the virtue of the Power of tao. The real working definition of a taoist is one who absorbs this immaterial potential essence inherent in creative evolution while in the midst of creative evolution. One is not invulnerable in any sense. As one proves one's virtue over a long period of time in accord with reality in actual events, creation responds accordingly as virtue builds, and one begins a cycle of provisional entry into the inconceivable. Only this is the functional appearance of the true path of self-refinement. These are the trials of real accomplishment that no one knows. As accomplishment deepens, the gravity and consequence of developmental situations grow in magnitude. This can be truly likened to a state of grace. Only those who are or who have gone through this experience can know what I am referring to. One enters this by virtue of following desires and one passes through this by the power of impersonal transcendence that is inherent in each situation. It is not by one's own power at any stage other than by stopping and seeing; not by acting. The sage's only action is by virtue of response. This is the working definition of spontaneity. It is so because the Power of the Virtue of Receptivity is inherent in creation itself. The sage is the world. No one is any different to the core of their being. ed note: add "in the Great Void and spins the Dharma Wheel oneself" at the end of the 1st paragraph

I was going to say… but Wu Ming made it ring true!! HE's OP of Liu's quote is a fundamental window into the heart of seeing reality. I know it does no one any good to say that the method of alchemy is the expression of a functional formlessness being the same as form, so for those in the process of actualizing the transmitted commentary by Liu I Ming on "The Inner Teachings of Taoism" by Chang Po-Tuan/Zhang Boduan, trans. Thomas Cleary, realizing the true thread of self-refinement is essential. Refine the self, then await the time. HE, suuch a careful one are vous.❤ Refining the self is refining away the human mentality. The body goes along for the ride. The entire spectrum of energetics is a side-track for those with too much time. No one has time.

Yes dawei~ it's fine here in terms of the ground of reality where flowers fall amidst our longing and weeds sprout… The palace of knowledge of nonorigination of the absolute constituting mind carries over in terms of the sameness within difference of temporal distinctions in light of unity of potential. I say palace here where I said place above because (it was easy and clever) it is indeed the refuge of enlightening being in the midst of the world. There is no other mind and there is no other world. The entire world is this palace. Enlightening being has no separate distinction from within the temporal because it is all things are oneself. This is a point of confusion because it does not mean oneself (or others) exist, just that the function of real people of inconceivable knowledge is dependent on the situation itself, not the personality. Adapting to conditions impersonally by maintaining psychological equipoise in spite of (or by using) external appearances to the contrary, one steals potential without entering into multifarious ramifications. Not being subject to Change, one becomes a partner with(in) creative evolution in order to influence the world. Nonorigination is the same as Causelessness. The light is itself unattributable. The knowledge of nonorigination is the power of transcendence from within Change. Those who possess this knowledge use it without dissipating it. There is nothing outside this knowledge. Actually, this knowledge is the natural pattern within creation that can be seen by adepts of all the authentic teachings. Following the celestial way is possible by seeing reality as is. This isn't return to the Tao— this is once having entered the Tao in reality, it is as if one had never been otherwise as one's entry into the inconceivable is the unborn. In terms of gradual practice leading to the sudden, this can be said to be return to the tao— but I am speaking of the function which is one from beginning to end in terms of the gradual. In terms of the absolute sudden all-at-once, there is no beginning to speak of. The knowledge of Nonorigination is another way of saying knowledge of the Unborn. This is immortality. If it weren't for Change, there would be no power of Tao to speak of. Since the function of Tao is return… but the unattributable has never moved, why does it function as return? The only reason for talking about tao is because of Change. So return is relative to Change. When speaking of return, it implies adepts never moving from the pivot of awareness in the midst of changes in perpetuity. In terms of endless transformations where adepts turn the dross of karmic existence into the elixir of immortality as a matter of course, nonorigination is the point of no return where the power of knowledge is the center of the compass of nonorigination being your nature. Adepts study tao and emulate its function to return to that which has never left, has never moved, has never gone into action, has never fallen into the created. it is not that the tao returns, it is that adepts use its function to return themselves to witness their nature and conduct endless transformations within the course of temporal karmic evolution in the light of unity. Nonorigination is seeing there is nothing to grasp, since nothing is essentially created. The unattributable light is the selfless identity of creation. Awareness is unattributable. Awareness is nonoriginated. It is not created. The light of the mind people use to create delusion is uncreated already. Sudden realization is not only just seeing this for the first time, it is completely severing the bond between the false identity of self, which is the root of karmic existence, and the nonoriginated, uncreated, selfless impersonal aware energy of the Causeless, which is one's true identity. Nonorigination is the point of reference for enlightening beings' selfless activity. Neither good or bad, selflessness is just indicative of the impersonal nonpsychologically aware function of enlightening being. No-self is one's true nature. The expression of enlightening nonbeing within being is analogous to sameness within difference. It is just the functional aspect of adepts, buddhas, wizards, saints and immortals operating subtly within the temporal without experiencing, causing or accruing (perpetuating) karmic energy. ed note: add "…" in 7th paragraph

So in my sassiest manner I can muster, I would say that that would have been whatever I posted above your comment~ heehee!!❤❤ In the knowledge of nonorigination and sameness within difference, one just rests in the unfolding presence as is without activating the discriminating mind. Bankei said, "Don't turn the Unborn into other states". Bodhidharma said, "Don't know". In not changing the pristine pivot of awareness into karmic existence, is the knowledge of nonorigination and sameness within difference itself. Laotzu said, "There is no thing". This no thing has no cause. Creation itself is causeless. Creation is itself THE causeless. There is no thing comprising the perpetual state within nonoriginated causelessness. Creation is no thing. Since there is no thing to grasp in reality, we abide in reality without grasping. I know there is nothing to grasp, so floundering is the human mentality's way of grasping at Chuangtzu's nothing whatsoever. Turning karma into potential is as natural as turning over your hand when the human mentality doesn't arise. Perhaps what I just wrote is of no further help, but I will address the next part of your comment here to make up for it. What Malikshreds spoke of is de rigueur for strengthening and simplifying the elements of sincere intent which are present behind-the-scenes throughout the process of self-refinement and beyond. He wanted to make sure that the stimuli and psychological patterns comprising karmic events are recognized fully and discerned accurately by the bums who are able to carry this out in the course of ordinary affairs without having to go along with the quality of their sensory kinetic energies' unawares. So that being your approach is entirely appropriate, Pat. And when that approach has proceeded effectively to the point where one no longer even produces "grasp" thoughts, much less grasps at reality mindlessly due to habit energy— this is because the processes of effective self-refinement having sucked the momentum out of the human mentality's power to perpetuate its own specious identity as karmic existence and luminous still presence having been reinstated as one's permanent nonpsychological posture, there is nothing left to refine. Mind is one, there are no two mentalities. Delusion is unskillful use of mind, that's all. Sudden realization of one's essential nature is the result of such enlightening activity, not the cause of it. When you see your nature, you not only see that that has been your true identity all along, you know that ALL being is thus. When I say that I am not addressing the kind of work that amounts to initiatory stages of provisional teachings of stopping and seeing in terms of carrying out discipline to recognize and discriminate habitual psychological patterns relative to sense-objects, it means that what I am bringing up is relative to enlightening activity beyond the stage of self-refinement. This is entry into the inconceivable. We are all just this inconceivability. Inconceivability is your own mind. I have to admit that there is not much difference between stages (in fact, there are no stages). Just know that self-refinement in terms of gradual practice and gradual practice of enlightening being are one. In the aftermath of the sudden, the emphasis is just a bit different, that's all. Since there is no difference in terms of enlightening being before or after the sudden, I speak of the perspective of selfless enlightening function in ordinary situations because when dealing directly with essence in terms of turning the light around spoken of in the Golden Flower teaching, there is no intermediary. This teaching is essentially no different than the subtle operation within Suchness spoken of by Chan or the term entering the Tao in reality of the school of Complete Reality. I can recommend a small manual which has passages discussing gradual practice leading up to and in the aftermath of the sudden called Minding Mind. It is translated by Thomas Cleary, the ISBN is 1-57062-004-0. You might even have it already! this is a place… it is just where you are, wherever you are. It is not a property of intellect. It is… one's relationship with reality. It IS reality. Yes, knowledge is a place. ed note: add last bit with the quote

Malikshreds said: The thrust of the thread is following true desire arising from within oneself as a result of spontaneous accord with mutually arising conditions in order to carry out the subtle operation of enlightening being. I am not addressing the kind of work that amounts to initiatory stages of provisional teachings of stopping and seeing in terms of carrying out discipline to recognize and discriminate habitual psychological patterns relative to sense-objects. When one accepts the wholeness of being as-is in terms of pure desire that requires no action based on longing— only response to the situation based on potential itself, there is the opportunity to continually arrive at the incipient well-spring of presence. On the surface, just this much is all a person can do— it is just the quality of impersonal objectivity, the functional perspective of enlightening being adapting to conditions according to the time and situation. This perspective is the pivot of awareness, with no bias or inclination, there is seeing Suchness as is. Just this is beyond karmic awareness. One is essentially empty already. Emptiness isn't void. The emptiness of enlightening being is potential itself because selflessness is the sage's unity within the temporal. Everything is oneself. Alchemy is just a teaching. It isn't a reality outside of the real. It is an effective device to enable those with eyes for complete reality to become familiar with the celestial mechanism. Using desire is a ploy to gain a working relationship with potential. When one is blind to egotism and possessiveness, one sees all sorts of striving come to an end. This is existence beyond karmic awareness. No longer expending any energy on speculative relationships and outcomes, just adapting to conditions naturally is gathering potential (unrefined elixir). This is selflessness. There is no moralistic self-consciousness here. It's just being natural. Enlightening activity has no motive to gather. Alchemy is just a description of the process of situational karmic energy reverting to potential for those whose potential is not yet realized in terms of sudden realization. It isn't that karma exists or not or that potential becomes real after it wasn't… after one sees essence, karma and potential are the same thing. Before people learn to see, they need applicable teachings commensurate with their development to deal with reality according to their level of virtuous accord with the Way in order to transcend the false and abide in the real. Before that development reaches a critical mass of energetic response whereby one actually can recognize the medicines, the teaching of alchemy has been left behind by prior illuminates to enable the wise to work with the polluted in order to realize the pure. When one practices the real in the heart of the false for a long time, the false reverts of itself and one experiences spiritual movement based on psychological stillness. There is nothing to understand. All processes are spontaneous. This is following the will of God without knowing it. When one sees, there is nothing whatsoever to know. Dealing with situations, one follows desire in order to introduce guidance, which is a code-word for observing obscurity as it turns into clarity. Desire is. It turns into wisdom when you have the eyes to see nothing outside oneself.

Kajenx said: It's like this forever. It has no fancy sanskrit title. In the center of essence is the wholeness of desire. With this perspective, we can follow our heart's desire. Longing is seen for what it is— a load of really pathetic self-importance… some people say it what makes the world go 'round. I say it keeps the karmic world turning. So are there any questions about how to stop the world~ not to get off of it, but to get off on it without going along with it.

Kajenx said: It is reined in by forgetting to use it, so it does itself revert to its natural state, i.e. settled. If it is allowed to go off on its own untended, this is ordinary ignorance. Self refinement is settling the mind by observation in stillness and activity. This is mindful observation. This is precisely the way to carry on one's day regardless of conditions. This is akin to seeing oneself and the world as the void itself and void of itself. In the void, there is only unity. Observing coming and going within unity is just seeing. Just this is profound practice. hahhaaa!! But there is something in the recognition. As far as following the smell, there is discernment, which is immediate knowledge. Does he like it or not? Puppy likes it if he rolls in it. When puppy comes home, clearly it is obvious that he has stepped over the line. So in recognition of potential, the knowledge is immediate. One already sees it as oneself. When a point of light appears in the void, this is desire. It will come to us with all possibility intact. Recognition is following. Mindful observation is following. Rolling in it changes it, and this is going too far. But stopping at smelling deeply might not be going too far. In any case, it depends on the situation. But our desire isn't just a smelly lump. It has volition that requires our response. Though desire is karmic in nature, enlightening being is a matter of seeing potential in the midst of karmic energy, and absorbing potential without incurring karmic debt. This is precisely why there is following desire without stepping over the line. Though we see desire as ourselves, still we don't know what it is. If we do not yet know that this essence of desire is already complete, and then seek to do something with it, then this essence loses its uncreated potential and so do we in regards to the situation. When potential falls into the created, it evolves into killing energy. One must observe evolution in terms of yin convergence. Smelling the situation is a very good simile. Even pressing one's nose into it without incurring too much stickiness works too. Otherwise, should we take some home with us, we have already changed the situation. That is the real danger of working with desire. When the energy of desire turns into killing energy, one must then withdraw the fire and store the unrefined elixir void of intellectualism— not letting so much as a spark leak out of the empty vessel. So dealing with change/karma/potential/desire must be a matter of knowledge. Those who see change are not subject to Change. That is the rule. Otherwise, one will get hung up. Discretion is essential. True desire is like the essence of a verrry erotic spark. It must be handled with a kind of flair …style, if you will. Otherwise it is best left alone for another time. Taking it home isn't wrong. Taking it home is like putting medicine in the cauldron to be cooked. It is dangerous. One must be able to maintain a subtle quality of nonpsychological unminding throughout. Though the situation is banging on our door, we do not let it in. Though our own mind is fire, we do not let it out unawares. Dealing with desire effectively is a very delicate affair, where the difference between not enough and too far is as a hairsbreadth. This is how we must measure the medicines. This is how powerful potential is. When you take it home, one has now created a kind of working karma in the present. Keeping this volatile karmic presence present and viable by maintaining its quality of potential intact is described in the alchemic manuals as observing unrefined elixir. If one can manage to seal it away by mind without damaging its essential undefinable nature (by not defining it through habituation to intellectualism), the unrefined will cook by nonpsychological concentration into refined potential whereby this is then absorbed naturally in the center of one's immaterial real body which has no location. I liked your comment, Kajenx.❤ ed note: ad "Self refinement is settling the mind by observation in stillness and activity." in first paragraph; add to 9th paragraph

dawei said: Even in the physical realm, I do not rehearse. My posts are all impromptu. The OP was an immediate response to a request. When I started climbing rock and ice, there were always the uber-ambitious high-achievers rehearsing the hardest, steepest, thinnest routes they could put under a top-rope. We called it rehearsing, hang-dogging …cheating. Even the famous Stonemasters from southern California, whose skill, innovation and sheer boldness of attitude that spread across the globe and changed the way people climb, didn't even venture onto the local granite California crags until they had already reached the then higher technical difficulties by rehearsing on top-roped boulders and routes first. Their level of proficiency then would have been rated about 5.10 in difficulty. I started climbing rock and ice and quickly advanced to about 5.2, then perhaps 5.6. It took me 10 years to lead 5.10 by just climbing and making everything I did a real adventure on its terms without construing anything. Adventure and true commitment don't require any difficulty, only the unknown. If you rehearse, you cannot experience the rich and variable situations that only exist at lower levels. If you don't take your time and learn what is presented naturally, how will you be able to apply it in extreme situations? The rush or "high" of moving gracefully under pressure is equal at all levels. Why be driven to cheat yourself of true thusness that exists by virtue of your having a body? It's not the situation, but how you see it …how you appreciate it. How do you show your appreciation of the spontaneous incipience of tao if you have never known it for rushing to prepare for the next perceived ego-challenge? The real challenge is to be exactly where you are right now (even if that be sheer boredom) and move or not according to conditions that only continually change. Today, the vast majority of the real Stonemasters and their ilk who are still climbing, as I do, don't climb at the highest levels of difficulty or risk. I still climb at about 5.10. The point of addressing this is to stress that enlightening being IS off-the-cuff. NO REHEARSING. Furthermore, I do not encourage or welcome Marvel's or Songtsan's off-topic rambling on my threads. Songtsan has absolutely NO INTEREST in learning. And that, sadly, is a fact.

What logic is there to it other than those whose rulership over their own flesh makes them kings and priests over all flesh. Since they have dominion over the influence of worldly concerns, it is no leap of logic then that this is the ability to intercede on the behalf of others who do not have the power of kings and priests. When one is no longer under the rule of the ways of the world, how can another influence one's own objectivity free and above the influence of the totality of the created? This being made into kings and priests is the result of transcendence of temporal concerns while in the midst of temporal concerns. Such people are fit to be kings and priests on behalf of those who are not. The work of goatguy is not just a small bit beyond mere scholarship. This is first-rate comprehension and intuitive understanding. One actually has the opportunity by his efforts to enter into this literal tradition's ancient burden of mystery by his deep grasp of the revelations imbedded in the words and the symbols they are made of. Like other teaching traditions, the import of the message is beyond a logical conclusion whereby one's own inherent wisdom can by quickened, developed, exercised and brought to the fore. This is how people become kings and priests in the first place. ed note: change "the" to "this" in 4th paragraph

As an aside, in taoist symbology, this number represents the period of an entire cycle. Caught up in this indeed. ed note: added "of"

Merci, sun+Song…❤ This is very difficult to express because enlightening function (selfless karma transcending activity) is the virtue of the Way already. Your nature is none other than the source of spiritual power that transports you through situations as described by Hongzhi's statement in sun's OP. I have always said that seeing reality is not dependent on sudden realization. Seeing reality IS enlightening activity. Seeing reality IS just turning the light around to shine on its source. True practice is already practicing complete reality in the midst of ordinary situations. In terms of seeing, nothing is left undone, as the perpetual result is incipient presence. It wouldn't be presence if one's action deviated from reality as is. Since one's acts are inevitable in terms of the situation itself, and one doesn't see things relative to speculative outcomes, where is karmic evolution accrued? If you haven't seen your nature but have developed the bones and marrow of a buddha over countless lifetimes, then the harmonizing of the light of awareness that results in being able to see beyond the concerns of the person(s) involved in ordinary situations becomes evident and effective. Obviously, if one's virtue hasn't developed to this extent, future karmic indebtedness is inevitable. But one has the opportunity as a person to enter into a complete resolve of unbending intent to refine the self of habitual patterns that has real results in this and future lifetimes. It all boils down to not seeing through the eyes of the personal interests that have taken up residence as the false identity of Mind. One does not then seek to see through other(s) eyes. This is not a convention of squishy compassion. It is a matter of no longer entertaining views relative to complacent speculative relationships with anybody or anything. It is called fearless independence. One simply stops knowing things relative to self and other to the degree that what comes up due to one's past karmic affiliations no longer creates future bonds— positive or negative. Then, that which IS inevitable will not be obfuscated by the flow of habit awareness and the self-generated weaving of hairs. Not producing karma is the same as saving energy— freeing energy. You could even call it stealing potential, because that is exactly what stealing potential is— not producing karma. When not producing karma in the course of ordinary affairs, one is stealing potential. Stealing potential is another way of saying freeing elixir from the matrix of creation. By not thinking about causes and effects in the course of freeing potential, one is then storing it away in secrecy void of intellectualism. That is all there is to the entire teaching of subtle spiritual operation. It is not a method. It is the description of the celestial take-over by complete human beings. One enacts this oneself by seeing in the first place. It is not a thing or things that one does. It is more like what you don't do in the course of affairs is producing this enlightening results. It is called the unification of potential within creative evolution. It is called subtle for a reason. Believe it. By not thinking self and other, the firing process is natural and spontaneous. The fact that there are spiritually transcending results is, well… entry into the inconceivable. This is not a nod to sudden realization. It is enlightening being already.❤ So there is no need to cultivate pre-emptive positive merit-practices to ward off evil and attract good. ed note: typos in 2nd, add "It is called subtle for a reason. Believe it." after the 8th paragraph

Teachings are attributable. By virtue of having a body it is possible to assume the unattributable. This is not a method, which is the first thing that came out of bob's mouth in his projections onto what I call enlightening activity. Inconceivability has no polarity. It is not that one is invulnerable. It is that one's light is selfless. That there is nothing outside of one's self is the teaching that nothing is not this light. Enlightening being is acceptance of one's selfless function (having seen it). It is not done. Yet nothing is not-done. Seeing is just it. Seeing almost always takes care of everything that needs to be done. For the most part, it is a matter of holding; otherwise it is a matter of releasing. One is always letting go in the course of situations. Holding and releasing is a different operation left to the time. When shit happens, it's real shit. Don't pretend it's not. Don't pretend it's what it isn't. Don't seek ways to spiritually protect yourself. Reality isn't right or wrong, before or after, self or other, ordinary or holy. DEAL WITH IT. At the right time, engage with it or withdraw from it. This depends on the situation itself. If you haven't seen your nature, this becomes karmic action. If your function is enlightening, there is no choice. In any case, each situation is unique. Result is an inevitability. For those who live in the present, the result is in perpetuity. It is the celestial mechanism, which is not apart from one's being. Accepting one's function and dealing with situations on their terms according to the time isn't a method as much as it is a result of one's virtuous harmony with the tao. This is abiding in the pivot of awareness. This gets back to the fact that selfless awareness IS one's true identity; not a practical theory of enlightened practice. ed note: change "requires" to "becomes" in 12th line