mwight

He explains that mantras are an aid to meditation, I can see that. But most people I know focused on western magick aren't into meditation they want to chant a spell, and drink a potion and magically accomplish something amazing like win the lottery or get rich or get that girl of their dreams or whatever. What I am saying is I haven't ever heard of any magickal ritual or spell or whatever that can display real world results. If magick works like that, then surely someone somewhere has been successful, and can repeat and demonstrate their talents. The online communities for wicca and witchcraft and neopaganism etc. are far larger than the communities on taoism, and qigong. Surely someone there has had success with developing magical powers. If so I haven't heard about it, or seen or read any studies about it. Thats the point I'm trying to make... Where's the beef?

Well I've always been the kind to pick things apart and figure out how they work, I want to understand the nature of what is going on here in this world, and beyond. You know... Really Grok it... No I don't believe chi is only the biomechanical alignments of the body... It seems to me to be a projectable substance, wave or force of some sort. Maybe mantra does act like an aid for getting the mind stuck in a loop of sorts, forgetting your even chanting like when you repeat a word over and over and it stops sounding like a REAL word... Perhaps there is some legit purpose for the sake of meditation itself. But I haven't seen chanting or mantras as used in western magick ever accomplish anything. e.g. if I chant this spell long enough I will win the lottery.... or she will fall in love with me...

Seth, You bring up anecdotal versus empirical I don't think it needs to be that complicated really. Either magickal ritual etc is capable of producing objective results, or it isn't. I guess by the strict definition of anecdotal evidence most of my firm belief in chi is anecdotal, e.g. I project chi into someone and observe their response without telling them I was attempting such an experiment. It's because of the direct cause and effect nature of chi that I believe in it, if the same could be said of magick I might believe in it also. I'll be honest there may be a treasure trove of legit teachings I am missing. And I do believe that visualization and intention can affect your chi and your being greatly. I just don't believe that symbols, and ritual have any intrinsic power. e.g there is no combination of words you can chant or potions you can create out of herbal ingredients to "hollow out mountains" or "command armies of the undead". From everything I have seen the universe doesn't work like that, there is no correct combination of rituals or chants your can do every time to reproduce a specific result. Sure we can be conditioned to associate symbols with stimuli, e.g. McArch with food etc. but that doesn't mean its the arch thats sending out electromagicknetic waves to make you hungry, its your own mind linking the symbol to the stimuli. Maybe symbolism and patterns can be used to control the people, I've heard magick users say politicians are the highest level of magick users. If thats all it is about... the control of other peoples minds via propaganda and mind control techniques... I'm not interested in that kind of power. I don't want power over others, only myself.

To use your analogy, I've never seen any "cars" period. Just a bunch of idiots jumping off cliffs, making vroom vroom noises. I've never seen talismans or chants rituals or invocations produce results, and if they do I suspect that the underlying principal behind them is either trickery, chi or the use of spirits. I would be interested in learning more about systems that make use of such things, assuming that they are at least as well documented and confirmed as qigong/neigong is currently. I find that reasonable. I think my biggest problem with such systems is faith, I don't like faith as a concept. I like believing in things which you have observed or experienced, rather than pure faith. I was atheist until I experienced something beyond my comprehension, and watched others experience aftershocks from it. I'm a I'll believe it when I see it (or experience it) kind of guy. The power of void meditation, qigong and neigong to me is undeniable, I've experienced it, others in my life have also. Western style magick.... not so much..

There is a splinter in my mind, driving me mad... lets leave it at that. 0_8Zq_iWuFg

no but it gets results and is well documented... unlike wicca and witchcraft. my primary objective for living is to stop the rebirth process, so I try to investigate systems which actually produce results like tummo. figure out how and why they work what's going on and how it might help me with my goal. I try hard only to listen to opinions given by individuals in systems which get results, and I don't pay attention to any from those in systems that don't. I don't really care if I achieve enlightenment anymore, I just don't want to be reborn into a world like this one again.

I was simply trying to point out with that video that chanting doesn't play a role in tummo itself.

I've heard that people who have mastered meditation can fill a dantein in a little under a week if they meditate all day every day, for everyone else though I would still say it would take thousands of hours. Also if you have some stories to share of symbols, ritual, or otherwise western magickal concepts holding real power over the physical world without being powered by chi or spirits I would love to hear about them. madoDvtKEes

seth, The point I am making is there is plenty of evidence to support qigong, neigong, tummo, and metta meditations... There isn't any (that I know of) to support magickal chants, sigils, rituals, etc. Also I fail to see how its narrow minded to reject systems which aren't validated with hard evidence, thats just being rational.

Sorry Stig, I call BS. If you think magick of any kind is so powerful, then lets see it. And this isn't just directed to you its to anyone else here also... seth etc. Show one example. Just one.. Post a video of you using mantras or symbols sigils, potions, chanting, or spells and crystals to produce some paranormal phenomenon. There is tons of awesome research done on qigong, neigong, metta meditation, tummo meditation. Lots of things believed to be impossible caught on camera and studied in a laboratory... Monks who can control their metabolism, sit out in the snow all night naked or go into a coma like state and be pronounced dead by MDs, monks who can generate huge amounts of gamma band brainwaves, qigong masters who can throw chopsticks through sheet metal from 15 feet, and monks who can throw sowing needles through 1/2in glass, qigong masters who produce huge amounts of infrasonic sound 70db or more and infrared radiation from their palms, anomalies in the decay rates of cesium via qigong, and lots more. I've got a whole video section in my personal practice section of really awesome documentaries on these guys... But you'd think we'd see SOMETHING like this for modern newagey magick users if there was one shred of validity to any of it wouldn't you????? So I challenge you to present me with some good evidence.... lets see it... put your money where your mouth is.

There are innumerable taoists both ancient and modern who never accomplished anything notable. Just because they left behind some books about their talismans and rituals doesn't mean they actually do anything. Sorry it's I just have some personal friends I went to high school with who got off on this magick kick, none of them ever accomplished jack shit and yet they all believe they are so powerful they can hollow out mountains with their will, and command armies of undead spirits. They live in their parents basements and are 30+ now and still convinced that next week they will win the lottery because this new spell will work, they even sacrificed an animal this time... using its soul as the fuel for the spell... surely it will work this time. It never does... It just makes me sad to see otherwise intelligent and good people delude themselves into thinking chanting, ritual, and symbols actually hold power over the physical world. They don't. To accomplish ANYTHING you have to have a huge stockpile of chi beforehand, and that takes thousands of hours of actually meditating. I've watched their behavior grow more and more detached from reality, almost to the point of insanity they are so deluded. This is why I hate magick so much, I view it as absurd, childish and extremely self destructive. It leads to nothing but delusions, and a wasted life. I am sure there are some ancient masters who spent years pouring their heart mind and soul, raw emotional energy, and chi, into certain objects like kerises of Indonesia. Sure these objects might even be linked to them in death. Seems like they still got the short end of the stick to me... I do believe that chi can be charged with intention perhaps if there is any validity to modern wiccan ritual it comes from the practitioners intention, emotion, and willpower to accomplish their goals. The whole ritual, and ceremony and symbolism bit most likely just act as a giant placebo to fuel their imaginations and emotional energy.

ok guys and gals... feel free to do all the silly rituals, and recite all the names of all the goddesses that ever were, stand on your head and chant ohm padmay hum, while spinning around three times and drinking the dragons blood potion through your nose. Because you know what... its BS... it will never get you closer to enlightenment... it will never get you closer to liberation.... it will never aid you in the development of powers or abilities.... as a matter of fact it wont do anything at all except for make you look really retarded. Deep deep deep meditation, deep enough to the point where your fully aware but completely disconnected from the physical sensory data your body is relaying to your brain, thats where you want to be. The void... beyond death... thats where you want to be. Wasting your time with newage wicca spells and potions and mantra's and sigils and signets and chanting and getting naked and dancing round bonfires.... is just a colossal waste of your time, that is assuming you actually want to accomplish something with your practice.

sorry r.w. Its obvious you DON'T have a clue what your talking about.

yes, he and his system called mo pai are indeed authentic.

Able to display demonstrable paranormal ability.

wicca is absolute bs. I challenge anyone who says otherwise to give one example of a true "wiccan" master at or above john chang's level.

LOL... I want to work for it

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn14...line-news_rss20

Looks like this should be a first amendment issue to me... How is it illegal to practice shamanism?

well you have a point there... but yogurt also has tons of bacteria which boost your immune system. But the calcium in yogurt blocks the absorption of antioxidants in green tea etc. Green tea also boosts your immune system. I drink green tea all day, and eat home made yogurt at night, and I haven't been sick in many many years.

during the day drink lots of green tea and eat hearty soup. At night before bed eat yogurt. Lay in bed for 3-4 hours and do emptiness mediation, stack on the blankets, try to slow your breathing down as far as it will go. go into the void, the emptiness

I think it really depends on you. If your a serious student there is a load of good material out there, take for example the spring forest qigong course, the tao of meditation, robert bruce's system. Also there is a ton of absolute BS out there. If your determined you can teach yourself, at least to a certain point. Then comes finding a legit a teacher and a lineage, thats a huge task in and of itself. If I were an advanced teacher I would want students to come to me that had already mastered emptiness meditation and being able to stay in that state for at least 3-4 hours. Why bother to teach someone unless they are serious to begin with? I wouldn't.

I'm going to be rude here... wicca is bogus chanting, mantra's, wicca, witchcraft, crystals, sigil's, signets, spells, potions, rituals all that jazz... bogus... don't waste your time with it. Stick to a good system of qigong or neigong like spring forest, or the system laid out in that book "the tao of meditation", robert bruce's new system also gets results.

I try not to take any pill that isn't also a whole food. I also try to look for supplements with tons of research behind them. Every day I eat 2 handfuls of dried blueberries, 2 pots of organic green tea, and I take a multivitamin and a couple fish oil pills. All of those things blueberries, green tea, and fish oil, have loads of research behind them.

I found it, its a great book. Lots of real information. Anyone who wants to compare notes, please shoot me a PM. the part where it talks about farting out bad qi is classic