Sahaj Nath

it's sold out! you know it's not right to do that to people.

hmm... again, i hope you will consider clarifying your point. i've read many of your posts in the past, and i don't believe that you've just suddenly decided to be lazy (if i might borrow from paul walter's jab for a moment) in your understanding. perhaps you will define what VIRTUE means to you? for instance, for me, the highest virtue is truth/clarity, and that doesn't always equate to being pretty or what most people would deem to be 'righteous' or 'good.' i'm a bigger fan of Nietzsche than i am of Kant, if that makes sense. you know, the whole "God's not taking a side when the red ants and black ants go to war" type of thing. all phenomena is moved by the same hand. my spiritual cultivation has little to do with most people's notions of virtue/morality, or right and wrong. i'm seeking TRUTH. beyond good and evil. so does that make me non-spiritual by your standards?

WHAT ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT? both of you are putting words in my mouth, and that pisses me off. no, just kidding. but allow me to quote what i actually said, key points in bold: i'm totally up for having a discussion about this, but lets first get straight on what the claims were. Songs, i don't necessarily disagree with you, and you have to consider the context for why i was making the point to begin with. i seldom roll with absolute notions, and not all energy development is directed towards spiritual ends, but i could still make a more nuanced argument about non-physical elements necessarily opening up awareness and interaction with non-physical reality, making intention a bit of a moot point. but i'd rather not. the point is that i never made the point with which you are disagreeing, as evidenced by my actual quote. if anything, i'm arguing that esoteric spirituality equates to energetic development, NOT the other way around. Vajrahridaya, YOU, on the other hand, are conflating virtue with spirituality, and if THAT is your basis for why i am wrong, then we probably need to have that discussion. virtue is such a value/morality-laden term, when your own understanding of the non-dual (not quite like my amorality, but certainly with intersections) is in conflict with the point you just made. i'll be out of town for the next day and a half, but it would be great if you would clarify your position before i respond to it. just for the sake of having a truly healthy and informative discussion. see what we can produce from this.

a couple of things: 1.) you didn't mention my point about the Kunlun practitioners. if that's a system that you're into now, then recognize that they agree with what i've stated and have recommended the same approach for the same reason. 2.) as per credit, if that is your position, i understand it and cannot really argue against that, but you should also understand that it kinda kills our conversation if your opinion and limited research is just as good as anyone who is recognized as an authority in the field. not only that, but it's an inconsistent position because one of your teachers had demonstrated NOTHING to you, ACCORDING TO YOU, and yet you're trusting his claims, even though you know for sure that he's not an authority even if EVERYTHING he has said is true. 3.) siddhis are not signs of enlightenment. they are phenomena that occur as a result of energetic development. Ya Mu is highly energetically developed, and he supports meat-eating, just as i do. we can have that discussion another time, i guess. i gotta go meditate.

these are people who shake all the time as a part of their regular practice of kriya yoga. they honor the natural movements and manifestations that arise as a result of their awakened energy, and they allow madness to do its thing as well. what you are talking about is not the point they're addressing. even in Kunlun LOTS of people are encouraged to eat meat (as well as junk food, although i don't know what that's about) in order to lower the intensity because the energy can leave them so spun that they might find themselves somewhat unable to function. the shaking that happens during the practice is NOT the kind of shaking these people are talking about. they are talking about the trembling, like if you had drank 10 cups of coffee on an empty stomach. if you found that you could not sleep for 5 straight days, my guess is that you wouldn't just shrug off your misery and hallucinations as either cleansing OR a simple matter to running the correct channels. and just like like with their use of the word "shaking," you're misinterpreting their use of the word "down" with regard to the energy. they're talking about the lessening of the intensity, NOT the ren mai channel down the front of the body. and it might help to know that guru-g is an authentic satguru. she has brought 7 of her students to realization so far, which is a pretty damn good track record if you ask me. but i offer that just to say that she's no chump. she's not an academic or an intellectual, but she's a real master, of the crazy wisdom variety. she knows the vedic texts, she knows the lived experience, and her journey was far from an easy one. and i'm not saying to just take everything she and her students say as gospel, but i AM saying that you should maybe give them a little more credit. i really don't feel like getting into a fight about this or anything, but yes, it is about "energetic development," for me and for many others. realization requires stillness, but that only happens after the kundalini has completely run its course. so that means there's a whole lot of phenomena that have to go on before stillness takes root. some folks have some energy going on that is manageable through other means, and other folks have so much going on to the point where even dense proteins don't help, and they consider suicide because they find it so unbearable. i think it's a mistake to assume, as you do in your response to Ramon25, that everyone with K rising is going through what you did, at the same level of intensity. "energetic development" has a whole lot to do with spirituality. it's pretty much the basis for ALL of the esoteric traditions, and in my case it made the difference between studied beliefs and experiential understanding. not to mention the fact that the energy acts as a sort of "karma accelerator." i'm biased in this particular issue because morality holds no particular value for me when it comes to categorical imperatives of this nature. but the question was about its relation to spirituality, and energetic development is very much germane to that topic.

good discussion! i'm pretty much in agreement with SFJane and YaMu. and given their respective levels of energetic development, i would say that i am in pretty good company. ESPECIALLY if you have an awakened Kundalini and you're trying to function in society, few can do that on a constant vegetarian diet. i certainly could not. in the earlier stages of the process there was just no way i could have gone without meat. i think guru g and her students are really straight-forward in this video, so i thought i'd share it. when there is a conflict in my practice of... life, my default is ALWAYS to keep to the natural flow of things. and i found meat eating to be quite natural for me, and crucial in keeping my health and sanity at one point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wKWvLSZ72U there are two other videos, but the sentiment that gets across in this first one is sufficient to make the point. i know there are other folks here with awakened kundalini as well. i'd be interested in knowing their experience with this. btw, i should probably mention that i was a vegetarian for 3 years. i didn't feel weak or diminished in any way. Until Big K decided she had other plans for me. my nervous system needed meat. i wasn't really allowed to have an opinion about it. but that was my experience. EDIT: the second part is pretty good, too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukcb3M2fFso&feature=related

indeed. you were more than clear. we're pretty much in alignment. it just required me to take a bit of a windy road to get there. i don't know, i just really didn't like the phrase "make intent sincere" because it struck me as an insincere phrase, and i had to deal with that first.

most of the respondents so far have treated this question as if it is common or ordinary. for me, i found it rather perplexing. i had to sit with this for a few minutes, but i think i might be able to contribute. to "make intent sincere," in MY opinion is sort of an insincere statement. it's more polite or it's easier to say than the actual truth. the truth being hinted at by the statement is more confronting. mean what you say, and say what you mean. i think the smoking examples are great ones to illustrate the point, because a lot of people say they 'intend' to do something when what they really mean is that they 'should' do it. the only real intent in that scenario is the intent to think about it, and maybe feel guilty from time to time. don't say you intend to do something unless you really mean it. and when it comes to difficult changes, like smoking, you REALLY have to know yourself in order to mean it. most people play head games with themselves and give themselves plenty of room to go back on their word so they can "try again" some other time. the sincere intention doesn't do that. the sincere intention is decisive. the definition of decide almost literally means to cut off the bullshit, the games, even the shoulds. i intend to be fully realized, and i intend to be a great teacher and to change hundreds of people's lives in this lifetime. straight-up. i might even reach thousands, but it's not necessary. barring some freak accident, i won't allow for any other outcome. period. THAT is my intent. i must leave the final outcome to the will of heaven, but my compass will never stop pointing north. maybe i over-shot this a little bit, but this is how it strikes me. you don't make your intent sincere; you make sure YOU are sincere about your intent. so you have to know yourself first, and then, just stop playing games and mean what you say. that's my take.

thanks, Drew. be sure to remind us here when it actually gets released. i have to say, though, it bothers me that they are only going high-profile on pain reduction. i KNOW they've done conclusive studies on cancer cells and other diseases.

believe it or not, there are VERY FEW people on this board who can breath comfortably at 2 breaths per minute, and i don't know any who can do 1 breath. this doesn't mean they're not here, but just that i don't know them if they are (although i wouldn't be surprised to learn the taomeow or Lin Sifu were doing it. my normal breath pattern is about 3 per minute, and when meditate i typically drop down to 2 breaths. i've never done 1, but it's also not a goal of mine, either. *shrugs* my advice on this issue would be to focus on detoxing your nervous system. so yeah, that means back to the spontaneous, natural flow stuff. also, that means lots of vipassana. once you've cleansed those nerves of stress and past trauma, THEN look to see if you need any tools to help you lower your breath rate. my guess is that you won't.

+1 i agree with your reasoning, except i give no consideration to how close or apart my teeth are; i just go with relaxed & natural. keep to what feels natural, and it's hard to go wrong. for me, teeth together requires a degree of tension, so i don't do it. i haven't found that it has held me back in any way in my development. even when my teeth have felt electrical i have felt no natural impulse to bring my teeth together, and eventually the energy always drains through the tongue. and speaking of tongues, people often ask about where on the pallet the tongue should be as well. again, i would also recommend keeping to what feels natural. i've read books and talked to teachers who recommend placing the tongue in the highest arch in the roof of the mouth, but until i feel a natural inclination to do that, it will not be my technique. your own nature has in intelligence with regard to these types of things. we are designed to work this way, so give some ample consideration to what feels right, and if you can find sources that support it (even if there's a split), then at least you know that there are others who do it that way as well, and you can trust that. for whatever that's worth.

Beautiful. just beautiful. thanks for posting this.

these points are extremely important, in my experience, and they deserve highlighting. warmth, laughter, love, and also Trust and Surrender, because in the end, what will be, will be. THESE are the emotional qualities that best facilitate major healing.

hello, Nina. i would be willing to see what i can do for your husband, but i would need a lot more information if you're willing to share it. i DO have experience in reviving dead nerves and regenerating mobility in some cases. it can actually be a painful process, but i have done it. i can't make any promises regarding what i can do for your husband, but if you're interested i would like for you to message me privately and share with me every scrap of information that you feel might be relevant. some things i can do well from a distance, but some things really require proximity to really be potent and effective. i would want to know the nature of the accident, general health habits and spiritual/political beliefs of your husband, specifics about the damage to his body, history of prior traumas, and anything else that you might be willing to share. as a general rule, i find that it is better to share too much than not enough. i want to feel as if i know your husband, or at least know the type of person. it helps. everything counts. also, i would like to know the city and state you are in. just let me know. BTW, Vajrasattva is a good guy and has been doing healing work for a good long while just as i have. i don't know the specifics of his methods, but you can certainly trust the sincerity of his efforts. Take Care.

okay, but what's your argument or analysis for why those Japanese Zen practitioners were incorrect? is it just that you don't believe it, or is there a process of reason that you could share, because it's something that i might not yet have considered.

um... what's wrong with that disclosure clause? what am i missing? it's like first, they're bad people for performing sex acts; then, they are bad people for putting it out there, up front, and attempting to shield themselves from litigation? what should they do then? just put out some FYI brochures about all of their practices and hand them out openly, and then just cross their fingers and hope it goes over well with the public? to me, this isn't unlike a recent conversation shaktimama and i were in, probably in this same thread. to make all of these schools and practices politically correct would be to destroy many of the highest teachings, and that's just not acceptable. the fact of the matter is that many of the complaints against true Gurus and true teachings have been made by people who just shouldn't have been involved at that level; i.e., it wasn't that the practice was abusive, but rather that the fragile or unstable constitution of the participant wasn't a good fit. why is a mandatory non-disclosure clause NOT a good solution, when it states up-front what you're signing up for? and the fact that, yet again, no one really addressed my position on the previous page, leads me to assume that i must be carrying the mantle of "spiritual nazi" at this point, and that's fine. i know that real abuses do happen. but so often it's buyer's remorse that's going on, and the conventional standards of the dominant culture cannot properly evaluate which is which. it ALWAYS demonizes the smaller group as evil, corrupt, and the the dreaded C-word gets thrown around. the serious stuff isn't for everybody, and it never has been. but there seems to be some implied assumption that everything spiritual should be safe for everyone. that's just not true. sometimes, getting whacked with a stick from the master is a beautiful thing, but that type of practice is NEVER going to play well in the mainstream. EDIT: not that i should have to state this, but a friend just advised me to clarify that i understand that there are certain things that shouldn't happen. like child molestation, that's NEVER acceptable. real, forcible rape, NEVER acceptable. i would hope people would give me enough credit to not assume i would bury these types of abuses under some notion of religious freedom. i wouldn't. i just don't see enough of anyone taking the other side in this issue. the more difficult side to articulate and defend. and i'm doing my best to try to get everyone to think just a little bit deeper and not just at the level of "rape is bad. therefore those people/groups are bad." there's just more to consider than that. at times it can be a long and tricky process to arrive at the truth of the matter.

more than any other facet of one's practice, the genuine quality of self that one brings to their practice is the greatest deciding factor of whether or not authentic development will continue. there are thousands of techniques designed to accomplish common ends. most of them work. enough so that i feel fairly comfortable stating that, in general, all of them work. the tools of cultivation are plenty, but without a quality understanding of one's own being in terms of presence and motive, how can one expect to use the tools effectively? here in the materialist west we seem to have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that it is WE who use the tools; the tools do not use us. meaning that the tools may vary in efficiency, but even mediocre or bad tools can be used effectively if one possesses quality understanding. the beginning stage of practice should be geared toward refining this necessary quality. quickly moving past this foundation is one way to ensure that the highest stages will never be realized in this lifetime. one NEVER moves past the foundation! i should repeat this point: one NEVER moves past the foundation. it's not linear progression; it can't be. everything we seek is already here, right now. NOW is the only place where anything can ever be. this accounts for why devastatingly profound awakenings happen periodically to novices and non-practitioners, and often DON'T happen to seasoned practitioners even after decades of practice. if you live the vast majority of your life treating each moment as means to an end, it doesn't matter much what you practice. you're lost. and if you choose to remain in that state of (un)consciousness, it will likely take an external circumstance, such as a tragedy or a near-death experience, to shake you up enough to even begin the process of opening your eyes. sometimes it's an experience immense beauty that triggers it, but not as often. for the person who bypasses the majority of life as a mere means to an end, awakening only happens by accident. the best that they can hope for is that their practices will somehow make them more accident prone. breathe deep. embrace the simplicity of now. do it this very moment, as you read this. do it now. and most importantly, never stop doing it! THIS is essential to cultivation and evolution. it's a state which one strives to make a permanent condition. one never stops breathing deep. one never stops living and moving and being in the present moment. now is all there it. now is all there ever is. everything that has ever occurred, or ever will occur, can only occur in the now. through this understanding each breath becomes a universe unto itself. each moment of relaxation becomes a whole and complete healing. nothing is wasted. nothing is ignored or denied. this is the true state of cultivation, and it is also the state that one works to acquire until it simply IS. this is radical presence, and there can be now wakefulness, no evolution, and no high level of development, without it. every action is a ritual. every motion is a dance. every thought and emotion is an entity that either nourishes or depletes us. on a more subtle level we begin to understand that the constant flux of energy (within us and around us) creates as well as destroys. all phenomenon contains both. but the profound simplicity of radical presence entrains us to harmonious resonance with each breath, in each moment. if one were to understand only this in one's lifetime, one would not have lived in vain. hsing is both form and force. it has no direct translation in english. but it can be understood. one of the many basic principles that can be derived from the notion of hsing qi is that energy follows thought. the unconscious state is one of reckless, toxic thinking habits. breathe deep. settle down. keep it simple. if you're always in the past or in the future, if you're seldom or never right here, right now, you're wasting precious time...

nice! i've been trying to get someone engage me on this matter, so i'm really glad you commented. please, PLEASE respond in any way you think is honest. i'll write more if necessary, but here is stuff i wrote both from this thread as well as from another one, to which NO ONE commented on. i think it's worthwhile discussion, but so far no one else seems to agree. ... it wouldn't matter much to me if there actually was substance behind the claims, to be honest. but i happen to be in the amoralist camp, which seems to be in the minority around here. morality is always relative, subjective, selective. it's the small mind that thinks from the base of the mountain it can evaluate the motives and actions of those at the top. just like it's the small mind that chases after the 'shakti fix,' as the article puts it. but the real wisdom is there, just the same. that they choose the "new, better, more amazing, spiritual energy stuff" and can't necessarily even see the sublime and subtle wisdom is the folly of the seekers. but it's perfectly fair to not trust such teachers or the lineages in which such teachers thrived. i say be afraid. be very afraid. it's a dangerous path. it truly is. unless, that is, you can resonate with that teacher's frequency of wisdom, and not just the buzz from their energy. which is a question of both maturity and cognition. i made a post about this kind of thing in the Shaktipat thread and even took the position of assuming that all the nefarious claims about Muktananda were true: let me state out-right that i don't believe all the claims to be true, but at the same time i don't even consider the controversy to be all that relevant. and please feel free to crucify me here if my stance disgusts any of you. i couldn't receive Max (kunlun) as my teacher. not even close. but Mark i can receive. very effortlessly. and Mark's lineage i can receive. so clearly that it becomes invisible all over again! but many others cannot, i'm sure. who are just getting their fix, or who gave it a shot and didn't "get" anything out of it. and who are feeble enough to be victimized by their own foolishness. they are just lucky that it's Mark that they found, and not some other, more dubious character. i walk my path as a lion, not a lamb. and the Siddha lineage suits me just fine. for whatever it's worth.

got it. understood. because if you were going through puberty/adolescence it could be detrimental to your development to try to control or suppress what is a very natural biological process. i would have recommended ways of re-thinking your interpretation of your desires so that you could better honor them in a healthy fashion and not make them into an enemy of your spiritual progress. the general insights offered already are pretty good ones. 松永道 is right-on with the story, as is goldisheavy. it's difficult for me to offer anything particularly useful, however, because i still don't know what you practice, and that would go far in the way of understanding your philosophy & worldview and how that factors into your struggle. for instance, i might recommend vipassana meditation in conjunction with an ecstatic practice, as a means honoring everything that's arising, while at the same time dis-identifying with the reactivity. it has done wonders for me in this regard, so that's how i have personally dealt with what you've mentioned. but i'm not sure if that's a good fit because i don't know what you already do. i wasn't trying to be nosy or pushy or anything, i was just trying to be as helpful as possible. take care.

with the exception of maybe Drew's quote, pretty much everything everyone said here is accurate. but that's why i ask so many questions, because had drew known that you'd received transmission, his reply probably would have been different. when dealing with issues of this nature, it is best to over-share. i posted this link 2 or 3 years ago, but i think it is what you need to go hand-in-hand with your new practice. it's a 'non-method,' a natural flow practice, and in shaolin it's called "flowing breeze, swaying willow." make time and space for your energy "detox" to complete itself. as you cleanse, you'll find that the movements are less violent & jerky, more graceful & flowing. but don't try to control it. surrender to what is arising. you can pick up the practice and learn a little more about it from this article. http://flowingzen.com/depressionkills.pdf i think it's a great way of integrating the transmission without having to worry about conflict with fire methods. so if you're looking to steer clear of the kunlun method due to your other training, this should serve you fine. as for the other stuff, i'll PM you later.

From Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath: get in where you fit in! Edit: from Wings to Freedom, p. 283:

you should be careful with your use of analogies. my mother used to make really shitty jello that could EASILY be nailed to a wall!

well, some people seem capable of generating a sort of 'group psychosis' that has the benefit of awakening dormant potential and bettering people's lives. i for one respect your orthodoxy. i've said so previously. but it's not the only way is all. a whole lot of things had to fall into place for me to come from where i came from (homeless, abused, poorly educated, gang-affiliated) and yet become who i am today. there is an inertia that has always guided me, and it has been unfailing. i could never abandon that so i could adhere to someone's external doctrine. not unless i was drawn to do so, which would necessarily mean that i didn't have to abandon my own natural guidance, which has been like the finger of God directing me through circumstances and odds that you couldn't imagine. personally, while i DO pass various transmissions to students, shaktipat hasn't been one of them. but if they happen to 'catch' it during our group meditation sits, then that's all to the good. and i'm pretty sure that not one of them will care if it meets your or even MY definition of "official" shaktipat. it wasn't shaktipat that first activated my kundalini, anyway. *shrugs* chillax, bro. there's a good vibe here. you've made some good points in this thread, but what are you so disturbed about? if you're worried about people being led astray, why not start a new thread and call it traditional or 'THE AUTHENTIC SHAKTIPAT THREAD'. i doubt anyone would mind.

yeah, i hear that. that would fall under option 2 of experiences that come from his practices. there just needs to be more clarity is all.

hmm... how old are you? you can just say over or under 20. i'm asking because with stuff like that, puberty/adolescence tends to be a factor. and what the heck do you mean by "sensual attractions"? that's extremely non-specific. are you talking about girls/sex/masturbation, or are you talking about sensual experiences that have come from your practices that you can't seem to stop chasing? assuming that you're young, my general rule is that i don't walk paths that are in conflict with my nature. some things are just a matter of discipline and sacrifice, but sometimes it's an unhealthy practice of suppression that's taking place, and i wouldn't advize doing that. so it really depends. it would also really help to know what your practices are. btw, welcome to the Bums!