Sahaj Nath

most of his humor came in the form of verbal puns and grammatical quibbles, so sort of. in some ways he was like the Derrida of magick and mysticism before Austin Spare came along. that's my take, anyway.

i'll be more interested in what you have to say a year from now. there's a difference between attaining states of experience and ascending stages of development. but i'll just leave it at that. you won't see me in this thread again. i promise. i am happy for you and the inspiration you're feeling. your virtual dismissal of vipassana and your heavy focus on 'stuff' happening are big red flags for me, however.

well, it would take me a week to respond to all of this, so that kind of sucks, because there's much here that i would like to address. first of all, thank you for responding. as i said initially, i meant no disrespect in my question. but often i come across far more confrontational than i intend. as for my background, i'll stick to what's relevant with respect to Thelema. David Allen Hulse & his wife (at the time) were my first teachers in the western esoteric traditions. he was a long-time friend and fraternal partner-in-crime of Grady McMurty (Hymenaeus Alpha). i associated with many members of the outer OTO, and then shortly after taking the minerval degree i was taken inside. much of my training and experience came from mentors whose anonymity & secrecy i continue to respect (even though i have little reverence for any of the orders and their wars). i've seen and done things among the AA that would lead most of the people on this board to cry B.S., but if what you've said here is true, you know at least some of where i've been just by the names i mentioned. and it may also help to know that my grandfather was a master mason of the purest order, and he was a casualty in the war. suffice to say that i know more than i'm supposed to, and i'm only moderately impressed. Crowley also wrote this, and he meant it: "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, there is no god but man." --Liber Oz you wrote so much here that it's a bit overwhelming to even attempt a response. i'm simply not gonna put in that much time and energy to do it justice. Ma'at forgive me. even trying to figure out what to respond to and what to leave out is somewhat daunting. i don't in any way hold up Hannibal Lecter as the ideal of Thelema. i never stated that. but i think he was an example of what is permissible under the Thelemic umbrella. in this battle between red ants and black ants, the universe sides with the strong, period. HL would kill in gruesome fashion, and his heart rate wouldn't even increase. in that sense, his motivations were arguably pure. no fear, no resistance, no arbitrary boundaries to say "thus far, and no further." THAT is the way of the Aeon of Horus. you seemed to focus a bit too heavily on "Love is the Law," and didn't give enough consideration to "Love UNDER Will," which kabbalah mystics consider the greatest perversion and a veritable assault on heaven. here's the remainder of Oz: 1. Man has the right to live by his own law— to live in the way that he wills to do: to work as he will: to play as he will: to rest as he will: to die when and how he will. 2. Man has the right to eat what he will: to drink what he will: to dwell where he will: to move as he will on the face of the earth. 3. Man has the right to think what he will: to speak what he will: to write what he will: to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will: to dress as he will. 4. Man has the right to love as he will:— "take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51 5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights. the outer order often tries to interpret #5 as the righteous redemption of the rest, a sort of "do unto others" type deal. but that's not the meaning as i have come to understand it. only those people, first with the knowledge to understand, and second with the strength and willingness to kill, can truly be free. to quote another master mason: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin materially, much of this is straight-forward. internally, this includes "kill the buddha." and they converge in the aspirant who lives out his or her purest and highest calling, sometimes resulting in a new spiritual leader, sometimes resulting in a musician, or a car mechanic, and sometimes resulting in a Hannibal Lecter type. many orders/traditions would say that right practice and proper guidance would never result in such a type, but Thelema would say that this ignores the fact that it DOES happen just the same, and i would argue that Thelema goes so far as to allow for it. perhaps i should have gone with Keyser Söze as an example instead. oh well. *shrugs* none of this is to say that Thelema is necessarily evil or wrong or any of those terms. just that notions of morality in this realm seldom matches up with the conventional view. and rules of conduct, mandated by a higher power, isn't in line with Thelema or many of the Hermetic brotherhoods. i'm just gonna leave it there. thanks again for indulging me.

my copy just arrived today. damn good reading so far.

Mariana Caplan. and like you, i looked for it on my shelf just now, only to find that i've given it to someone again. it's one of those books that i've purchased numerous times because i'm always giving it away.

Sifu Terry, i've been reading your posts for a while now. i'm curious as to the ranks of your friends in the hermetic and thelemic orders, and whether or not your interpretation of crowley comes from conversations with them or from your own reading. there are a number of masters in the western esoteric traditions that would support much, possibly most, of what you've written here. but i'm not so sure that crowley is one of them. Thelema is a different monster from Traditional Hermeticism. and the way i understand crowley, Hannibal Lecter would better fit his notion of 'frictionless' than what you've expressed here. highest morality as Amorality, and even a willingness to employ so-called Immorality to free oneself of moral constructs so that pure, unencumbered WILL can make itself manifest. i ask you this with respect, and you're welcome to disregard the question if you so choose.

Seth, this is just ridiculous. i'm sure you mean well and everything, but you've obviously not put in the time necessary for such a bird's-eye-view. i've been judging n00bs for the better part of 20 years, and my teacher was Asian and wore a boxy hat, so i'm pretty sure he was a grandmaster of something. LOL! i appreciate your words, brother. i get that these types of posts can often invite insults & derision, and so i also appreciate your courage and the place of compassion from which you wrote it. i, for one, will take heed of what you've said here.

hmm... if you only stretch infrequently and have a few scattered years of zen meditation, what exactly are you looking to get out of another program? ESPECIALLY if money is tight, i think it's important to clarify what you're looking for, and why what you already know (zen practice) doesn't fit the bill. cuz at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what system you buy if you don't practice faithfully. and if you're ready to start practicing faithfully, you might already have what you're looking for.

c'mon, Mal. blame the victim? not even close, brother. and shame on you for even going there. so they have ZERO responsibility in any of this? they shouldn't be held at all accountable for their claims, conduct, actions? really? and how they represented themselves and reacted to criticism said nothing at all about their character? last i checked, they were adults. and educated, successful adults at that. you're crying foul, over what? their own words and behavior being thrown back in their faces? THAT'S the victimization that has occurred? is it even possible for a lawyer/mercenary to be so thin-skinned? i doubt it. more likely a tactical ploy to save face and garner sympathy in a single motion. a tactic that you seem to be eating up quite readily. and why would a practical discussion be pointless? the author is not the authority on the techniques. practice of the techniques is the authority! and at least 2 of his books are readily available. both his 100 days book (kinda weak) and his Taoist Yoga book (much better) are available on Amazon, and plenty of people have them already. so why would it be pointless? only if you consider the "VICTIM" identity you've conferred on him more important than the practical discussion would it be pointless. and even then, only pointless for you and the bums who agree with you. but it's certainly not objectively or practically pointless. YOUR OWN PRACTICE is the authority on the techniques. NOT the author (who who was not the creator). if you don't want to talk about it, it's not out of futility. it's in protest. and that's fine. that's your call.

fair enough, but let me clarify a little bit, just for the sake of discussion. his definition of meditation-as-life (as i would put it) is not a new concept that he came up with. i first came upon it in Rinzai Zen practice, then later in Dzogchen. what Hagen is doing, i believe, is finding fault with how the average layperson relates to meditation as a means to some gross material end. but otherwise, i totally hear where you're coming from.

LOL! you guys make it sound like people were talking about his mother or telling him to go F himself or something. as far as message board quarrels go, this thread is really small-time. maybe i missed the really bad stuff because those posts were edited or something? but i doubt it. most (if not all) of the editing has been from eric and his wife. because they were just SO hurt, right? not at all because some of what they wrote was sketchy. maybe his Taoist Yoga book IS great, and maybe he has no business guiding anyone through that material. maybe both are true. and maybe the bigger tragedy his how he chose to represent himself here, and how he reacted to people calling BS. people keeping quiet when dubious claims and questionable characters arise is NOT my definition of respect. and i really don't see this gross disrespect that many of you are talking about. MUCH, MUCH worse has occurred here. so WHATEVER! what sifusufi said was a good idea. how about you all start talking about the actual practices? what was good? what was not so much? i have the book myself. and yes, i actually read it. so i wouldn't mind seeing or maybe even engaging in a practical discussion.

great responses, everyone! and mikaelz, you already know i love you, bro! i believe the author of the passage is attempting to redefine the conventional notion meditation and expand it from merely a technique that is practiced at x time every day. awareness is to be cultivated in every moment, not merely between 6 and 7am. faithfulness to every moment of our lives is how we LIVE meditation. at least that is what my zen folks believe. and i believe that cultivated awareness provides the vast spaciousness/emptiness upon which all the other practices depend. so while it may be the foundation, one never really moves beyond this foundation, just as a tree never outgrows the earth. (maybe that's a silly analogy. whatevs.) LOL! so in THAT light, maybe meditation would be the self, the driver, whereas the techniques employed would be the vehicle? not trying to take a strong stance here. i want to keep it open in hopes of getting some more interesting responses.

um... not to sound like a jerk (don't you hate it when people start discussions like that?), but i don't know anyone who began or ended their spiritual journey based on a news article. maybe what i'm really trying to say is that i don't accept your premise. it's unfortunate that these types of things occur, but i would never interpret these stories as a PR problem that requires a call to action. *shrugs* besides, when i was younger i did all the crazy & dangerous stuff, too. and my mother, a former drug addict (among other things) actually encouraged my behavior as "walking a higher path," which, compared to her youthful exploits, it probably was! i don't know. it is what it is. i don't see 'spiritual seeking' being endangered because of it.

i don't know about anyone else, but this thread makes me smile in all my warm gooey places. i stopped posting for a long time because of all the gullibility and fairytale seeking that sometimes gets normalized around here. nice to see some healthy skepticism and criticism going on. people aren't tripping over each other trying to buy train tickets to the Dragon Lands. could this mean the Bums are maturing? or is it just that Yudelove made such a public blunder that even the gullible are questioning his legitimacy? whatever it is, i say it's better to be judgmental and critical of this kind of thing than not. there are plenty of non-dubious sources from which to learn. and there are more than a lifetime's worth of teachings to be explored that DON'T make allusions to fantasy and unverifiable authority. but maybe that's just me. either way, i think the criticisms on this thread are a good thing.

Thank you for that reply, Mal. i was gonna comment something similar, probably a little more flippant, but you said serves just fine. durkhrod chogori, everyone who has been around the block understands what you're saying. but that's just not a fruitful discussion to have in this thread. i think it serves to generate more confusion than awareness for the newer practitioner. Kunlun Enthusiast, well first, my suggestion would be practice qigong and/or tai chi if you're looking for stress relief. they will serve as great moving meditations (assuming you have access to decent instruction), and you will get the benefits you're looking for. to answer your first question: NO. anapana CANNOT COMPLETELY SUBSTITUTE qigong & tai chi. the trouble is that you asked an imprecise question. but if i understand correctly the spirit of your question, maybe this will help. calming the mind frees up a tremendous amount of energy in the body, as does fasting. but trouble can quickly arise if your body's not ready to handle it. it is very possible to just blow open your channels through a tremendous induction of energy triggered by deep meditation. but that could prove to be a HORRIFIC experience. can place extreme stress on the body. can be very painful. qigong/taiji quan/yoga prepares the body for handling all of that energy. the exercises will steadily and gradually open the channels so that the pipes are clean and when you open the floodgates you won't do any damage. also, most (regular) people who meditate without a physical component don't seem to get very far in terms of energetic development. this is probably due to improper mindset in practice and the lack of a school or community from which to receive guidance. i think qigong practices work better in terms of quickly increasing your awareness of the energy in your body. cross training produces the best results, IMO. qigong IS a meditative practice. and proper meditation IS qigong. you can take a basic commercial yoga class and get a feel for some of what i'm saying here. if you start the class in corpse/emptiness pose, you're just kind of laying there. not much happening except for in the mind. but after going through a few postures and exercises, THEN when you return to corpse/emptiness pose, the energy in your body is awake and flowing, and your stillness almost seems to facilitate it. hope this helps.

i don't think billb's question was vhs vs dvd, but rather "stick with Winn, just do it faster," or "buy the dvd by Cheng Bingsong and maybe learn some new aspects of the form." my answer would be, it's up to you. it always is. i'm CRAZY committed to my exploration of qigong, so i often purchase multiple videos of the same form from different artists. what i never liked about Winn's Primordial form is his lack of precision and visible internal structure when he moves. videos like that frustrate me because i tend to move with exactitude, and if i am to deviate from the original, i want that original to be precise so that my deviations are conscious/intentional. truth be told, the Flying Phoenix Chi Kung videos frustrate me for the same reason. as soon as i read this thread, i immediately bought the ebook AND the Cheng Bingsong version of the form. to me, it's worth it. i don't think it's necessary by any means. but in my pursuit of excellence, having the additional material is worth it to me. BTW: i'm happy to see such a positive thread about this form. i think the last time the form was discussed here (someone was selling a copy of Winn's version, i think), most of the people who commented thought it was a waste. i didn't understand that at all. good to see that more people are practicing it and can vouch for some of the form's benefits.

your skepticism can be a prison that prevents you from ever discovering for yourself. that's all i'm sayin'. i mean seriously, what are you risking by practicing a well-known qigong form? i get what you're saying. i just don't think it applies very well here with regard to health maintenance. if your concern is being duped, then steer clear of expensive programs, choose to only explore those that are either low cost or free. but either way YOU have to experiment and explore for yourself. physically. not just intellectually.

LOL! once you are able to really understand it, you'll realize that qigong can be practiced in every moment, with every breath, so, by your own rationale, maintaining a qigong state could potentially DOUBLE your lifespan. more simply, though, do you really think that so many people would practice daily if what you just described were the only benefit? seriously? LOL! i work with cancer patients, and i see the seemingly miraculous happen all the time. i would still suggest that you are caught up in intellectual abstractions. get out of your head, and seek a practice that makes you feel. something you can believe in. then decide for yourself whether it's something you wish to make a part of your life. read more books. i would recommend The Healing Promise of Qi. i use it as my standard textbook for all of my students. very simple to understand, beautifully written, and fairly thorough. if you were in the states, i would invite you to my place, free of charge. but arguments & questions like this one are so short-sighted that i begin to wonder if your questions are sincere, or if you're just looking for a debate. do you really think that 100's of millions of people practice for an hour every day, so that they can add 1 hour a day to their lives? to me that doesn't even make sense to ask.

before i continue, PLEASE try to keep in mind that there is really no way for me to answer the whole of your question here. it's a HUGE question and you could easily read a dozen books without having it answered completely. but that being said: you seem to have latched on to my very last paragraph, as if to ignore the three paragraphs prior, which i believe answer what you're re-iterating here. maybe my answers come across too abstract for your taste? not sure i can satisfy your questions empirically. i know the esoteric theories and i know my lived experiences. many teachers would tell you to practice until you understand it for yourself. as i suggested right at the start, i believe you're trying to think through something that isn't necessarily intellectual. so i draw on analogies, like music. moving without expectation would be like Miles Davis just letting it flow through him in a jazz session. a novice couldn't achieve what he did, unless they were uncommonly gifted. i would liken many of the old masters to musical geniuses. they see phenomenon and quickly understand what imitating abstractly representing the phenomenon will do for the body. they can feel it. they can see it. they're not novices with no conscious connection to the life force. they are master artists that can fashion these expressions into teachable forms. so yeah, beauty of the dance is a big part of it. it's not the whole of it, and there are a TON of 'no frills' forms out there. you just won't catch me practicing a whole lot of them. but what i've been getting at here is that it's a matter of being able to really open up and see and feel things deeply. no one has to teach a child that running around in the grass is healthy activity, or that warm days can nourish the body. and as for "making ourselves available to the life energy of the moment is very nice, but find me just 5 people on Earth who understand this the same way," i could find you 50 right here in Sacramento. it's not as novel a concept as you think. it's just new to you. i'm glad that i don't have to re-invent the wheel all the time, but sometimes it's good practice. i can feel the meridian lines in people's bodies, but i'm not yet skilled enough to actually see them. masters who came before me could see them, and the mapped the energetic body. i've studied their work and verified their findings for myself. and with that knowledge alone i could create qigong forms that mimic whatever i want. but i never do this. i do the reverse. after having studied hundreds of qigong forms as well as formless moving meditation, i can allow my body to express as it will and allow that to teach me. Mikaelz recently posted about his experience with Sifu Jenny Lamb, where he learned a set of exercises that she learned from her own body's spontaneous postures. not everyone can do that, but that kind of discovery and teaching is far from unheard of, and many of the older forms, having shamanic roots, were developed in similar ways.

wow, this is such a good and TREMENDOUS question, i don't even know where to begin. i won't answer all of your question because it's just too big and i don't feel like writing a book right now, so let's just get the ball rolling with small stuff. here's what i believe: first, you're looking at this from a place of thinking rather than feeling, which suggests to me that you're either a beginner or you don't practice at all. the masters of old (and present) don't just daydream and decide they should imitate animals. there's a matter of harmony and resonance. beauty & grace speaks to us organically. it's not an intellectual process, and it certainly wasn't for the shamans of old who first blazed the path. we dance the animal forms for their beauty, both inside and out. it's our nature to be drawn to beauty. the science of it is mapped out later. in the west we tend to dismiss our feelings as meaningless, but beauty has the power to heal us, rejuvenate us, inspire us to create more beauty. beauty makes us feel. and if we simply open ourselves, we can effortlessly discern medicinal movements from poisonous ones. it's music beyond sound. even a complete novice on the piano can discern pleasing chords & sequences from unpleasant ones. that much is already natural within us. the classes are for learning the different beauties already created, and to acquire the skills so we can create for ourselves. qigong is actually very much like that. but too few teachers are teaching at that level. this is actually why i respect innovators like Michael Winn (though i HATE the production quality of his materials) more than the staunch traditionalists who only duplicate what they've been taught. too many internal arts practitioners forget that IT IS, in fact, AN ART! this is a very mundane interpretation. at a somewhat deeper level, the shamans and masters of old were so attuned to the life force around them that they were able to recognize themselves in the life force, and in doing so, were able to see ALL phenomena as a reflection of themselves. your question assumes a separation of things that i would argue the old masters didn't take as a given. i've studied HUNDREDS of qigong forms, and i've received transmission from a number of different masters, but my highest expression of the art comes from my examination of clouds, the wind, and trees. for another practitioner, who has a different karmic past, they might be more moved by the play of squirrels and birds, or insects at spring time. there is no one correct protocol, no matter how much energy we spend trying to map out all the benefits of certain practices. the highest expression, in my opinion, is to simply make ourselves available to the life energy of the moment, as it arises, without expectation of form or outcome. but this is a very difficult thing to do. so forms have proven themselves to be a good compromise in terms of health.

this is the lobby, the place where you want to introduce yourself to the community. after introducing yourself, you can ask your question in the discussion section. but first, tell us a little about yourself.

i'm very surprised that no one offered any advice on this. VERY surprised. forget about the LDT. he's not anywhere near a state where that's gonna do him any good. so the first thing you should do is take that back, IMO. he needs to learn how to breath. that's the first thing. probably the most important thing he (or anyone, for that matter) could learn. spring forest qigong encourages reverse breathing. i wouldn't recommend reverse breathing for someone his size, in his state of health. good ol' belly breathing, complete breathing, filling from the bottom up, and exhaling naturally, is what i would recommend. if he's willing to meditate, he should mind his posture, relax his body as best as he can, and just follow his breath. and a lot of obese people do mouth breathing. he needs to mindfully breath through his nose. spring forest exercises are RELATIVELY simple, but that type of regimen might be intimidating for someone like him. deep breathing and some/any movement is what matters most. "pulling down the heavens" is where i would start. visualizing heavenly energy pouring through the body from head to toe. smiling from the heart. any stretching that feels good is stretching that he should do. 5-10 minutes of stretching. any stretching. if his knees are decent, he should shake/bounce for 5 min. or the duration of 1 song. he doesn't need to shake very hard, and he feet don't need to leave the ground. i'm a big guy myself, and i've worked with a number of obese people. gotta start small. gotta keep it simple as possible. the best practices are whichever ones he'd be willing to do everyday. period. but above ALL ELSE, proper breathing is paramount. immediate benefits. 1.) 5-10 minutes of stretching, just to feel good. legs, arms, twisting at the waist. 2.) 5 minutes of bouncing/shaking, freestyle. if it's too hard, free form dancing. 3.) inner smile/pulling down the heavens WITH proper deep breathing. 9 reps. (or a higher multiple of 3) 4.) if he's up for it, seated meditation, just inner smile and following the breath. deep breathing. that's it. it could make a world of difference in a very short time. if he can do this consistently, it's a great place to build from. feel free to PM me if you have questions or want more ideas.

sorry to detract from all of the critics of Wong Sifu, but i just had to chime in. i never, NEVER post here anymore. and this is one of the reasons. i was among these folks not so long ago. but i got over it with a little more time on the cushion. i'm a teacher and a healer by trade. i don't have another day job. my latest endeavor is fighting cancer with my bare hands. and i'm not a personal student of Wong Sifu. but i can tell you that his methods work, that his qi transmissions are transformative (a good jump-start to a cultivation lifestyle), and his approach is a rare find, though it shouldn't be. he's better than a ton of so-called masters out there. and many of his disciples first began training with the likes of bk frantzis (whom i also respect), michael winn, wang liping, etc., and chose to devote themselves to Wong Sifu's teachings. one such disciple is Anthony Korahais. and here's an article that he wrote a few years ago. i give it out to every one of my students. http://flowingzen.com/depressionkills.pdf the only real question you need to ask yourself is whether or not his approach is right for you. i personally think Flowing Breeze, Swaying Willow, is worth its weight in gold. and remember, you don't have to marry the guy. just know that your money is not wasted should you decide to check him out. and feel free to contact Anthony, the author of the article. he's good about answering the kinds of questions you may have, and he might even give you the big laundry list of masters he tried first. there are some legitimate criticisms that can be made later on, but when it comes to foundation training i wouldn't hesitate to recommend shaolin cosmos qigong. he's a beautiful guy.

very familiar with chaos sigil magick. in fact, i'm still rather fond of its principles. and if you possess the capacity for it, it's quite effective. not familiar at all with psychick youth. at that time in my life there was the IOT (Illuminates Of Thanateros), the Temple of Set, and a bunch of splinter factions from the OTO, the TOT (which was the closest thing to an outer order of the Argentium Astrum), and the Golden Dawn, who practiced chaos magick. it was a bold time for we dark youngsters who were certain we already knew everything.