Sahaj Nath

i didn't read too many of these posts, and i'm probably going to regret commenting, but... what does "selflessness" have to do with the raising of kundalini? because it's something that J. Krishnamurti said? ??? that doesn't even make sense! it's empirically disproved by just about EVERY person who has ever risen their kundalini. in a non-dual reality where GOD ALONE exists, do terms like "selfish" or "selfless" even have any meaning? my highest aspiration has never been to "selflessly serve," as you put it. my spiritual life has been driven almost solely by the desire to know GOD/TRUTH via direct experience. you seem to attribute an importance to our species that i do not. i think it's quite acceptable for us to destroy ourselves entirely, if that is to happen, and i don't think the universe will care any more about the extinction of our species than we care when black ants and red ants commit genocide. to quote my favorite fiction book of last year, at the end of the day, we're all just "barnacles on the container ship of consciousness." my natural drive is exploration, discovery, and the search for Truth. it's been that way my whole life. given where it has taken me, you'd be hard pressed to convince me (or any other yogi or taoist who has turned away from the world for the same reasons) that i'm wrong to go with this natural inclination. now, some people ARE driven to serve others or the planet the same way that i'm driven to know and understand. their path is gonna look different from mine. but neither path is wrong. it feels so obvious and intuitive that it shouldn't even need to be stated.

i should have met you 7 or 8 years ago. i was big on "testing" my students in ways like you described. such tests can have their place in a school or system, especially those where the goal is healing. the quality of the energy being emitted is extremely important and too often overlooked. i just looked at your profile page and saw that your father recently underwent surgery and chemo. it's because of this that i'm responding to you. where do you live, generally speaking? i may be able to put you in touch with someone in your area. also, what are you experiencing currently in your practice that makes you believe you're ready to test it? do you have a regular practice regimen? something you can try: if you've acquired sufficient skill to emit qi from your palms, you can line up a few empty shoe boxes, turned downward. place a cup of water underneath one of the boxes, then use your hand to scan over the boxes and see if you can feel the difference between the box with the water underneath and the others. once you feel ready, have someone hide the cup underneath without you looking, and see if you can find it. a glass cup and purified water are best, i think. IMO, this is quite a bit easier than controlling the quality of the energy you're emitting. as for how to perform the test you described, the most important component is PURIFICATION. cleansing qigong practices and cultivation of virtue. you'd have to try a few different experiments for yourself. but if your qi emission is strong enough, you can alter the pH of water. you can even alter the flavor of water and other liquids. the real skill is in controlling HOW you alter the water or liquid. there are some folks who emit strong energy, but they don't seem to get results in healing. others have comparably weaker energy streams, but they are actually more successful. it's about the purity of the energy, the purity of the vessel. a person with poor or incorrect practice habits/attitudes can make some illnesses worse or more stubborn, rather than better. the ability to fine tune and calibrate the frequency/quality of the energy is something you're not going to learn from a book. not well, anyway. your efforts are better spent cultivating love, compassion, forgiveness, and acceptance until you can find a teacher. when you develop those qualities into strong personality traits, the ability to calibrate the energy is less important. feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to talk more about it. for the record, i don't test students in such ways anymore. i feel like such methods did more harm than good in terms of ego development.

i'll be adding info to this thread periodically as events come up or new materials become available. i plan to make it through all of Mark's material by spring and i plan to review all of it. if the review is worth reading, i'll be posting that here as well. for now, Hard Light has a blog called ShaktipatMeditation, and they post excerpts of Mark's talks. the talks generally come from the intensives, the retreats, or the thursday evening programs. the excerpts are short, but they're also pretty good! http://shaktipatmeditation.blogspot.com/ the next day-long shaktipat intensive will be held Saturday, December 10th, in Los Angeles. i am happy to answer any questions about Mark or Hard Light. you can either ask here in this thread, or you can PM me. i am happy to represent Mark and the Center here on The Tao Bums.

never cared much about the personal relationships in a teacher's life. i've always found it common for excellence in one or two areas of endeavor to come at the expense of other areas. not a rule, but very common. but only in the past couple of years have i begun to soften about things like body mechanics. i've always been a bit of Nazi when it came to that kind of thing. if you couldn't demonstrate true excellence in movement, you couldn't possibly have the necessary skill to teach. i was wrong. perfect body mechanics is not a requirement for healing, invigorating, cleansing, or refining the body and its energies. this TTB community has taught me that. took a while for it to sink in, but i'm gettin' it.

well, gym-style breath training is not antithetical to the natural settling of the breath that occurs in practice. in fact, i would say that directly training the breath facilitates the gains that occur when no effort is being applied. as far as a well-proven tradition that incorporates such a practice, i know that various shaolin schools train in this way. i thought tortoise breathing originated in the taoist schools, but it might be a shaolin practice as well. but to my knowledge it's a very common practice. chunyi lin teaches about the importance of slowing the breath rate. Master Si Tu Jie (Wei Tuo qigong, from shaolin) emphasizes the practice of slowing the breath, as well as Master Wan Su-Jian of Bagua Xun Dao Gong. and it's exceedingly common in various yogic traditions. my normal, everyday rate is about 4 breaths a minute. as soon as i give it even a little bit of attention and deepen my breaths, it slows to 2-3 breaths per minute. when i apply real focus and intention, i can breathe 1-2 breaths per minute, without any strain or distress. the slow respiration facilitates full-body breathing and full-body awareness. i think it also makes it easier to slip into really deep meditative states where breathing ceases altogether. i was just having a discussion with Tibetan_Ice about how one of the things i enjoy about sitting with Mark Griffin that i've never experienced with another teacher is how i can fall into some deep states where the breath ceases altogether. my whole body fades into what feels like a mild breeze, and then eventually even that fades away and i lose all sense of time or "i". again, no strain, no distress. perhaps there are people who are experiencing this without training the breath, but i think the breath training really helps to open that door. lots of other side benefits, too. like the fact that i never get sick no matter how much illness surrounds me. this has been true even before i began learning qigong or yoga, just resulting from breathing exercises i had learned from a book as a youngster. there's a lot of good to be found in breath work. might be worth another look.

maybe, but i stand by my original take on your situation. especially given that you're not battling any stress or anxiety. what you're experiencing is not a problem that needs to be solved. if we don't welcome these changes that arise, why bother doing any of this stuff at all?

don't know if you ever found anything, but i just uploaded 2 tracks with you in mind. 3 breaths per minute: http://youtu.be/oNtH3D5oVWA 2 breaths per minute: http://youtu.be/HvcLZO6cKqU somebody on here made the audio tracks many years ago. i think it was mantis or sunya/mikaelz. don't quite remember. if i can find the thread, i'll post it. but these should work. 4 breaths is just too fast. even 3 is a bit fast for me. EDIT: it was mwight who made them. found the thread, but the links to the tracks are no longer viable. http://thetaobums.com/topic/6125-a-free-gift-to-aid-you-all-in-your-qigongneigong-training/

hey lifeforce! a very natural and normal part of the kundalini process. most regular people only experience what you described in times of trauma or intense stress, and so they regard it as a disorder when actually they have been shaken up enough to wake up a little bit. it's a small part of the process, but i regard it as an important part. it's in that state that you described that you can truly begin to understand teachings like "there is no doer." even the thoughts that lead to action are understood as just part of the flux of creation and dissolution. the witness is untouched by any of it. it's a good time to read some of your favorite spiritual teachings, if that sort of thing suits you. Bankei. Nisargadatta. Chuang Tzu & Lao Tzu. rather than imerely intellectually deciphering the texts, you may notice that you have an immediate grasp of the state or condition from which the texts were written. you may find that you have insights that far exceed the scope of the mere text. whatever you decide, i would work with it however best you feel moved to. the more awareness, focus, and energy you bring to it, the more you root it into your self as a condition that sticks, and you will very naturally detach more and more from the everyday, even while the bulk of your daily routines remain the same. and at the same time you'll begin to expand into more intangible dimensions. not at all an unpleasant process, if you ask me.

this talk had a significant impact on me as both a student and a teacher. it's not anything too complex, it's just beautiful. i thought it should be shared with the world. if you're not going to watch both of them, i would recommend watching part 2 first. i personally love the whole thing, but i realize not everybody's gonna spend an hour watching a talk. part 1: part 2:

enjoy.

i just ordered the video and downloaded the book. it's always exciting to learn about another African American who has walked a similar path. there's so little literature out there. i know there's a long and rich history of us esoterically inclined black folks, but it's not easy to find the good stuff. i had basically just stopped looking. i feel like this is a pretty big gift that you just gave me by posting this. i probably would never have come across this man on my own. just beautiful. thanks, Drew!

guess i can respond, since he's not planning to be posting anymore... i don't think his post was meant to be touchy. i think he's just going through an intense and uncomfortable period of self-examination. CT, you're not the reason he's no longer posting; he's no longer posting because of the insidious nature of his own motivations, that impulse to "dispense wisdom" whenever the smallest insight is gleaned. i love don_vedo. he's a beautiful guy. it's just a learning process that he's going through right now, and he's doing better than most would, i think. i'm sure he'll be back around whenever he feels it appropriate. just wanted to offer a little clarity.

"My Guru ordered me to attend to the sense 'I am' and to give attention to nothing else. I just obeyed. I did not follow any particular course of breathing, or meditation, or study of scriptures. Whatever happened, I would turn away my attention from it and remain with the sense 'I am'. It may look too simple, even crude. My only reason for doing it was that my Guru told me so. Yet it worked!" --Nisargadatta Maharaj

"When you are deluded and full of doubt, even a thousand books of scripture are not enough. When you have realized understanding, even one word is too much." -- Fen Yang the qualities you bring to your path are more important than the external particulars. books can be a waste of time. they can even obscure what is otherwise simple and organic. and, a single book can prove to be all a person needs to accomplish the Great Work of Awakening. know thyself. absent that, any path can be a waste.

i've been thinking about this for a long time, and i haven't committed to anything just yet; i just want to get a sense of how many bums might be interested in something like this. i'm thinking about opening my house up to some serious students who would like an immersive type atmosphere. i could comfortably house 7 students. tuition would be very affordable, like $200/week or $600/mo. laptops would be prohibited and phones will be off most of the time. meals will be mostly vegetarian, and all produce & grains will be organic. curriculum will vary, but expect a movement system or two, standing practice, shaking practice, meditation, mantra repetition, book study, and some really good discussions. and, of course, direct initiation/transmission. both women and men would be welcome, but they would be housed in separate rooms. thoughts? interest?

thank you all for the responses so far. let me explain a little more what my intent was when starting this thread: in the coming months i will be turning my home into a full-time spiritual sanctuary. what was uncertain was whether i would be offering pathwork that is relatively narrow in scope and specific, or open-ended and exploratory. i thought that maybe there were a lot of bums who were interested a more serious, concentrated environment, but who still wished to explore a breadth of different systems and philosophies. so what i wanted to offer to TTB folks was an opportunity for brief periods of deep immersion in different systems so that they can better discern what speaks to them and what does not. also, i wanted to be able to offer a flexible environment to accomodate people who have different backgrounds and would like to share with others or practice alongside others who are practicing something totally different, but all in the same spirit and in the same concentrated environment. absent any significant interest in that kind of thing, i will be limiting my space to students who are interested in a more narrow, in-depth path of cultivation, not unlike an ashram or monastery. so yeah, that's it. GreytoWhite, i will be contacting you soon. surely we can meet up in the near future.

couple of things come to mind. first, you should not claim that you are the ocean or any such thing anyway, not unless that is your experience, i'm a spiritual cultivator, driven by the desire to know through direct experience. beliefs without the work and direct experience is impotent. the practices we engage in are not charades to occupy our time or give us some false sense of control in a chaotic world; those practices are technologies that give us direct access to the wisdom and experiences written about by the masters who used them before us. second, if this is the only life we live and the only time we get, then the present moment becomes even more precious, not less so. the present moment is all that we have. it's the only place where we live, the only place where life is happening. and the opportunity to realize that is getting smaller by the day. i don't know about anyone else, but i don't waste energy fantasizing about other lives or magical realms. when students ask me questions about reincarnation, i make it a point to tell them something that unsettles them. death is coming, and whatever will be in the after, will be. but now is what you've got, so what are you gonna do with it? not sure if this was the kind of thing you had in mind, but it's what came up for me.

yes, we appear to be talking about the same space, and the "rolled like a cloth" analogy is referred to as the kundala, but i'm still dubious about the term kanda, as the only place i've seen it is you and this Burley guy. but i could be totally wrong. i really don't know the Hindu system that well. i thought i at least had that much clear, though.

the space that you're referring to is the KUNDA, not the kanda. it resides at the base of the spine. and it's not the equivalent of the lower dantien. you don't fill the kunda; the kunda is already full. i am not familiar with any yogic practices wherein upon completion, the practitioner stores all the accrued energy in the kunda. that's not how it works. in fact, i'm not familiar with any hindu equivalent to the lower tan tien at all. the Hindu and Taoist systems do not perfectly overlap. there are a great many similarities, but few equivalents. i'm not an expert on the Hindu system, so maybe someone else can comment and provide greater clarity, but i'm pretty sure that this much is correct.

such a good and important topic that i thought it good to create a new thread around it. this year has been incredible for me in terms of growth and the dawning of Insight. one area in particular that has really opened up for me includes the subject of bliss. i'd love to get the perspective of others on this matter, but i hope that those who reply can speak from their own experience moreso than parroting the words of others. as per my experience this year, there is a Bliss that is non-relative, like a Bliss Prime, whose only opposite is Emptiness. its "actual texture and tone" IS blissful in the way that we all understand the term, i.e., the bliss is ACTUAL and neither conceptual nor abstract. yes, it is vibrational in nature, but the term Bliss is a more apt description than "higher vibration." in terms of my own experience, it arises from a root-awareness that this body-mind is just a tiny ripple in the Ocean of existence. the awareness is not localized in the body, but takes in experience through ALL bodies and generates new experience for all bodies. the substance of that experience is Bliss. it's like a friction. all existence is motion. all motion is vibration/friction. and all vibration is bliss. so the relative crushing agony of a mother suffering the loss of a child is indeed bliss in nature. the painful cries of the drug addict dying in a pool of his own vomit in some darkened alleyway is indeed bliss in nature. in fact, ALL arising phenomenon radiates pure bliss, merely by virtue of existing. however small or great the motion, its essence is recognized as Pure God rubbing up against Pure God. everything that can exist not only does exist, but MUST exist. because its the only function, the only purpose, of the Universe. God alone exists. that's as best as i can translate my current state. not sure if i would find this description credible if i wasn't immersed in the truth of it even as i type these words. relative bliss relates closer to joy and love. Bliss Prime relates closer to our notions of death. i can feel the vibration pulling my consciousness out of this body-mind. without egoic attachment, my physical body would quickly die. i can actually feel it. i recall Mark Griffin talking about this once in a talk on Vajrayana, but i thought he was full of it. he talked about how after he attained realization under Muktananda, he needed to learn how to stabilize his being under the guidance of (the previous) Kalu Rinpoche. without the techniques to stabilize his consciousness in the physical body, he would have lost his body. at the time his words just sounded like some nonsense he read in a book somewhere that wanted us to believe, so i dismissed it. i didn't see the point in him even sharing it if there was no way to verify the truth of it. but it turns out that there IS a way to verify the truth of it: direct experience. for the record, this is NOT a claim of enlightenment. this is a true and candid description of one aspect of my current state. i assume there are others here who are experiencing or have experienced this, and others still who are in equally profound states that differ from what i have described. i'd love to here from all of you. so if this topic derails, whatevs. but methinks our relationship to bliss in its many forms might be a really good focal point.

http://www.weituoacademy.com/index.aspx really depends on what you're looking for. what do you consider a scam? what do you consider a cult? i've known Jonathan for 10 years. he's legit. i almost moved back to LA in '07 to study under him. wei tuo academy is in Claremont, which might be further outside of the actual city than you were looking for, but he's about as real as it gets as far as open-door schools with public-accessible studios. he's big on precision and discipline. you can just go to improve your health, or you can go deep with him and get into to serious cultivation.

yes! that's exactly what it's like! it's been with me nearly 5 months now, and no matter what physical or otherwise surface drama i'm engaged in, that background of expansive Bliss is always there. it's an awesome thing to feel understood. well, i guess shortly time will reveal just how much trauma i've really worked through and resolved up to this point. i think i'm ready for that test. i think what has been most healing for me, practices aside, has been my commitment to genuine openness & honesty. even when it's not pretty, it's real. that trait that so many people dislike about me has taken me a long way in terms of deep healing. there's no internal process of "well, an X-type of person would respond/behave in THIS way, so i should adjust my behavior accordingly." perhaps that process works for some, but i think it's encouraged far too often and, for me at least, it leads to disconnection and short-circuits the spiritual process. don't know if that will be helpful or even well-received by anyone, but there it is anyway.

*nods* understood. fair enough. that actually helps a lot! better enables me to contextualize this state in terms of Mark's lectures. not that i need to find a place to fit, but it makes his talks on spandas that much more relevant. indeed. i figured if anyone could confirm the difference, it was you. cool. yes! that's exactly what i feel naturally inclined to do, and it intuitively feels like it will deepen all by itself. THIS! yeah, this is why i wanted to hear from you on this whole thing. i was pretty sure that you've already been down this road. yet having been there and then having lost it, you still maintain it's a legitimate unfolding. it certainly feels that way, but it helps to hear it from someone like you, so thanks. it helps me to treat as precious, to work to properly tend to the unfolding, and to know that it will slip if i'm careless. truth be told, it could slip regardless. so while it's here, i'll certainly give it its due.

fluidity, part of me wants to respond to SOME of the things you've written, as some of it is at least interesting, but it's all convoluted, and unnecessarily so because what you're trying to explain really isn't that complicated if you abandon such gross abstraction. it makes me not want to comment on anything you've written because i have to address the entire framework in which it is presented, and ain't nobody got time for that! i mean, feel free to keep posting as you see fit, but i was hoping to avoid the kind of non-experience-based abstraction & theorizing you're engaging in. i tend to enjoy the abstract and theoretical, just not in this particular instance.

there is no fear at work in any way here, although there was a moment when i questioned if it was a brain tumor just because the shift was so tremendous and then it never left. but even that consideration didn't hold any fear. i know what you're talking about. i've been blissed out of my body before. i used to take my students through that just to show them that we weren't missing out on anything by steering clear of Kunlun. but that's not what's going on in this case. maybe the way i described it was just unclear. maybe i'll try again later. and THANK YOU for replying with some of your own experience rather than just theory! i'm still hoping more people (*cough*-Seth-Trunk-*cough*) will comment with some recognition and offer their insights.