Sahaj Nath

yeah, i have Spring Forest 1, 3, and 4. i got them from mwight when i bought his video/audio set of robert peng's Elixir Light Healing program. there are a number of people around here who have used Spring Forest Qigong. i think the general consensus was that most were not at all impressed with his system. so i think i'm in serious minority when i say that i liked it. i liked it better than robert peng's material. i think maybe the simplicity with which he talks about qi and qigong makes some of it difficult to take seriously. but i think he had a couple of insights that more than satisfied me. the exercises are really easy to do. some of the exercises are ones that i've already been practicing, but he has a couple that i think are unique to SFQ. he promotes whole-body breathing, which i think is one of the most important practices i ever learned, and too few teachers talk about it. Master Duan Zhi Liang (wuji hundun) also teaches whole-body breathing, but hardly any other qigong or taiji teacher i've met employ the breathing method in their classes. whether or not you'd be into the material will probably depend on your experience. i think newcomers would take to the system more openly than experienced practitioners. i think his approach helped me as a teacher to simplify concepts and ideas. but some of his deceptively simple explanations contain brilliant points that i needed to learn better. anyway, that's my take on it. i'd love to meet the guy some day. i've been thinking about stopping in minesota on my way back from new york when i go to study with Lin Sifu.

um... i don't practice the kunlun method. just stated that in a couple of PM's. and i stated to you (this is the 3rd time now) that i didn't attend the seminar for the kunlun method. i went for max. and i was sorely disappointed. that hasn't changed. and i wasn't the only one felt the way i did about the seminar; i was just the only one who stepped up and said something. and i figured it wasn't going to make me too many friends, but it might spare at least a few people the disappointment of traveling hundreds or thousands of miles to see him. i really don't want want to fight about this. things were feeling good around here again. i know tips about safe practice. i know a ton of practices that are similar to red phoenix and how to avoid complications (like the tongue, or NOT PRACTICING THEM). so i guess your statement after the fact that you wished you and i could have talked more was just a show for the audience. before you came in with this (dare i say, EGO-driven) attack, i was ready for the possibility of a dialog with you. look at post #2 in my SF kunlun thread: "are the techniques effective? yes. they can be. but moreso than any other system? no." again, that wasn't my point. i think you would do your teacher and your mission a great service if you'd start showing a little more of that enlightened wisdom & compassion you've been cultivating over the last SIX YEARS at a rate of 100 YEARS PER HOUR. i'm not the one making an ass of myself here.

welcome, jane! glad to have you around! =) i've watched your youtube videos and admired you from afar. some of the subtleties in your motions suggest that you've got some real experience. and your unassuming approach is refreshing. if you don't mind: explain to me how MCO factors into the philosophy of the water method? especially the reverse breathing, which i considered to be quintessentially a fire practice. i think i still have a lot to learn on this subject.

are you holding your tongue up to your palate? if not, start. that's one of the most important missing pieces that made max's lesson so irresponsible, in my opinion. the tongue and the perineum solidify the ren and du channels into one complete circuit. the energy in your head can actually drain through your tongue and return to the lower tantien. if there's a lot of energy to be drained, you'll even feel that tingling sensation in your tongue as well as your teeth. IMO, red phoenix would only worsen the condition. it can induce dizziness, nausea, vomiting, headaches, the fight-or-flight response, and a number of borderline symptoms. you certainly don't want to force the 3rd eye or the crown to open, but especially not the crown.

yes, it's safe. just read through kunlun posts that have already been written. any corrections that max would offer in person have already been expressed on this site.

yeah, it brought a few tears to my eyes. her raw insight and sincerity, and the division among a group who should have embraced a common language. i wanted her to be my mother. or lover. whatever.

thank you for posting this. really, thank you.

the timing of this post is uncanny. that's all.

look, i'm never wrong about this stuff. except when i am. lol! it makes me wonder why he'd teach that, though. to me it makes sense only after the orbit opens up on its own, 'cuz then you stretch your legs a little and get more familiar with how the directions of the currents affect you. it's the timing that would make the difference. but early on in cultivation training, i'm just really having trouble seeing it as part of the water method.

yes! to me THAT'S what makes the kunlun practice a true water method, at least according to my understanding. the orbit does what it does without you being the doer. and while i may be crucified for taking a contrary view to dr. yang, i think his concept of natural flow is way too one-dimensional. there's a creative element of chaos (hundun) in every natural process of flow. the experience of the kunlun practice doesn't match up with yang's analysis of natural flow; i say go with the (far less rigid) lived experience, and if you're allowing rather than doing, then intellectual knowledge of the proper direction isn't even important. THAT'S natural flow. and that's the safest, i think.

the idea i was drawing from: The original water school of Taoism came into flower during Lao Tzu's time, around 2,500 years ago. Unlike the Neo-Taoist fire tradition, the original water school Taoists had no great drive toward physical immortality, a major focus of Neo-Taoism. While the water method is known for not forcing things, for literally letting things occur in their own time, it is far from passive. Adherents of the water method prepare in every possible way so that when circumstances are ripe for the successful completion of their practice, they are fully open and available to the moment.... The water method is a practical way to release blockages in the whole mind/body so one can fully transform and ultimately experience conscious harmony with the Tao, right down to one's bone marrow. Then one naturally acts according to the principles of the Tao Te Ching. --Bruce Kumar Frantzis far more broad and abstract than you were talking about, it would seem. "path" and "method" are not always the same thing. but my advice, especially if you're new to cultivation practice, is: when in doubt, don't. there are plenty of safe, consistent, harmonious methods without having to resort to questionable combinations. the potential damage that can come from some of these practices is very real. a lot of people on this board can vouch for that. i'm one of them.

i'm rather surprised no one ever commented on this article. i'm just commenting so i can throw it back into the rotation and hopefully see what others have to say about it. after all, there's a lot more people around here these days.

maybe i'm wrong about this (and please someone correct me if i am), but there's really nothing 'water path' about the microcosmic orbit. the kunlun practice and embryonic breathing might prove to be a good pair, but if you identify with the principles of the water path, then you should realize that water doesn't lead; it flows. you allow the orbit to open on its own, without need of conscious direction. THAT's the safest method, and that's the water method. your biggest job it to get out of the way of what the natural flow will do for you all on its own. you learn to flow with it, with a sort of unconditional embrace. i'd say that kunlun is very consistent with the water path, but the MCO is not. the two would conflict and could cause serious complications.

just for clarification: i didn't have any students there. not sure how that got communicated. my point isn't really "to show, or not to show," though i think the whole "scare them off early" idea has NOTHING really to do with the strategy, as per mantra's own words that i quoted above. i think there's more credibility when the displays are downplayed. and i think it's more impressive when it's somewhat under-emphasized and explained and shown as simple principles at play.

brother, i do my best to make love to EVERYTHING! the tea is easy to love; it gives so much back in return.

hmm. a perpetual energy converter would be AT LEAST in the same ballpark as a battery, wouldn't it?

from the sounds of it, you're missing everything! some of my best qigong practices is sitting on a cushion and enjoying a cup of tea in silence. every breath, every moment counts. it's a time to drink in every seemingly minute experience and to feel gratitude. drinking deep. drinking life, not just tea. the whole process of making the tea, the correct temperature, steeping for the correct amount of time. holding the cup. warming the hands. taking in the aroma. pouring the tea. sipping it. letting it sit on the tongue for a moment, then swallowing it, and feeling the warmth as it moves down to the tantien. feeling the body as the subtle essence radiates through you... drinking tea can be poetry. especially good tea. i can't do tea bags anymore; i can taste the paper of the bag and it ruins the tea. only loose leaf for me.

that's more than enough notice. i should be able to make it work. never been to new york before. should be fun.

i'm a big fan of some ti kuan yins. light and nutty. drives some of my students crazy, though. i'm a huge fan of white tea, but it's an expensive, delicate tea, and most people don't make it correctly. but i have a few up my sleeve that i won't share here; you'll just have to show up and find out.

just for the record: i think stephen mitchell's translation is one of the worst translations out there. it was the first translation i ever saw, over ten years ago. so it captured my interest. but i've liked almost every translation i've found afterward better. can't really speak on the taoist yoga book; i don't really use it. i do like the stimulation of sexual fluids bit in the beginning, though. i think that's right on. there's probably more that's right-on in the book than at first appears, but sean's probably right, ultimately.

you know, after going though a ton of older threads and talking privately to a few people, i'm beginning to soften up a little about max. he struck me as a genuinely nice guy when i met him, and even after my disappointment i couldn't shake that fact. i mean, let's face facts: there were some things said that were just flat-out untrue. if people are still unconvinced, i have a partial list. but the feel i got from him was positive. maybe the biggest problem is fear on the part of mantra: "...some people NEED TO SEE the robes and whatnot in order to value the information they are getting and respect the person who is presenting it. This is part of the human psyche. An exalted, dramatic presentation is absolutely necessary for some people because collectively we judge books by their cover." or maybe it's not fear; maybe it's pure marketing strategy. but i don't want to believe that. i think maybe if you were able to trust in authenticity, and fuck what you think the audience wants (not needs), i might not have responded so disagreeably. i don't know about the claim of enlightenment. well, actually, i think i do know. the claim of enlightenment is kind of bunk. but the claim of joy and bliss is true. the claim that these states can help the ego let go is true. and the fact that this incredibly simple technique is more profound in results than most people have or will ever experience is true. so why the hell can't that be enough? why all the sensational shit? fear is ego, and the idea that people NEED TO SEE the bullshit only underscores my belief that true enlightenment is not to be found on this path. i want to like max. i do. i think my biggest problem has more to do with how he is being represented (and how he's maybe buying into the necessity of that representation), than it does with max as a person. i needed to put that out there.

yeah, i agree. it just seemed kind of daunting at the time to write out everything i was thinking when i read the page. but in a nutshell i was thinking: how must they view us here in the west? and how sad is it that they're right, for the most part?

thank you, cat. i am familiar with ken cohen. his knowledge base is pretty phenomenal. even when he's talking about the simplest and most basic of practices, it's clear that he has mastered it. extremely thorough. and even the more abstract elements come across effortlessly and simply. i have his 100-day training course. to be honest, it bored me at first. but later it became my companion and aided me in memorizing and owning the foundation of cultivation. he has my respect and admiration.

ah. sorry. as you might have guessed, no. nothing. i think his point was that after the kunlun method, all the rest of it becomes obsolete. it would have sat better with me if he had expressed that he was at least familiar with the basic prerequisites. but by the looks of the crowd, i honestly don't think their target audience is taoists or experienced cultivators. with the exception of a few bums, the crowd was, by and large, the type of audience you would expect at a new age event. during the standing 5 elements practice on saturday, it was obvious that most of the people there didn't really have any background. people were shaking, straining, and sweating after 5 minutes of just standing with knees slightly bent. one of the arm posed DID strain me because i had never done it before, but the stance itself is very basic and i was surprised that so many people were having trouble. it suggested to me that very few people there had any history in the internal arts to compare the practices to.

LOL! that was the best laugh i've had all week! thanks!