Sahaj Nath

Audiohealing, you don't need a book or a special class to practice this. of course it's always of benefit to receive direct transmission from the master; however, it's not necessary. you can piece this practice together simply by going on youtube and understanding the article. Lifting the Sky is really the only technique you need to induce qi flow. the only thing you can't see is Sifu Wong smiling from the heart and simply enjoying his practice. this is all you do. some people practice without swaying; some people practice with swaying. doesn't really matter. once the qi flow is induced your body will sway or move in some fashion anyway. simply allow it to happen. everyone is moving differently. they're just letting go. no set pattern just let go and flow. and enjoy yourself. doesn't matter what it looks like or doesn't look like. all that is required is a capacity and willingness to genuinely surrender. watch these videos, watch others on youtube if you think they will give you more confidence. but it really is just this simple. surrender to the natural flow of qi, and let go of any expectation of what it should look like. even if you don't move much at all, so long as you're open and free, and smiling from the heart, it is correct. i too have suffered greatly from depression in my life. this is one of my favorite medicines. at first not much happened. i twisted slowly at the waist and my arms swung very subtly. a week or so into it i began to cry and emote in all kinds of ways. and it felt so good to let it out! i yelled and growled and generally just let myself go nuts. i didn't look anything like the guys in the videos above, but they haven't led the life that i have, either. things flow much smoother these days. i hope you have read the article more than once. i must have read it at least a dozen times. it's very good. real secret is in the letting go and smiling from the heart. allow your body to express its own needs. a Ya Mu puts it, allow EVERYTHING to happen. and it doesn't take hours a day of practice. if you can do 10 or 15 minutes, that's great. even 5 minutes if you're having a particularly difficult day. just don't skip a day. even 5 minutes can be a victory. enjoy! and when you're done, just place your hands over your abdomen and allow the energy to settle. that's it.

True. but i think the point that we were both making [i could be wrong] is that some folks who might be interest in the article might never click on the post because they think it's about something different. you titled it "10 phases of Qi," but a more accurate title would be "10 phases of cultivation." folks who think the thread is about 10 different types or manifestations of qi might never click on it. circulating can be a part of purifying, but at the heartmind level of cultivation purifying also has to do with habit patterns, emotional hang-ups and the like. so something like forgiving a person such as myself for the way that i write/talk would also count as a form of purifying qi. the book is very clarifying on why he broke up the phases the way he did, but he also leaves plenty of room for you to re-interpret and reorganize however it best speaks to you. most of the purifying methods discussed are also in line with circulation, so maybe it would be more clarifying for some to call the more heartmind-related stuff something else. it's just a working model, and it adds to the alliteration of the chapters. for instance, "transform qi" accomplishes many of the previous phases at once, so folks who practice spontaneous formless forms might find that phase to be more in line with their experience, even if they are not particularly advanced or experienced. yes, always with the little digs i guess. i'm just a bit of a jerk that way. um... i wasn't making a criticism there. i was just encouraging people to pick up the book if they liked the ideas. it's well worth owning. no hard feelings intended.

my thoughts exactly! the only reason i clicked on the thread is because i teach from Jahnke's book and i know that he specifically uses the word "phases," and so i figured maybe the thread starter just did a bad job of shortening the title. i'm a BIG fan of Roger Jahnke. his book, The Healing Promise of Qi, is the best qigong text book i've ever come across, and i've read more than a hundred of them. each phase of qi cultivation has its own chapter in the book, so there's a LOT more information and explanation for each phase than can be thoroughly understood from these little paragraphs. the book is an easy read. very simple, clear, and beautifully written. it's totally demystified and yet full of magic and wonder. Jahnke and i part ways on maybe 3 issues, and even with those issues, i understand his intended audience and his purpose for taking the position that he does, like his stance against trusting teachers who claim to offer energetic empowerments. i think every qigong practitioner who could benefit from a little more perspective or a little more direction should own his book. i become a MUCH better teacher as a result of studying his way of breaking it down. it surprises me that i only know of one other teacher who uses it as a standard text book, and that's Michael Rinaldini in Sebastopol. i'm sure Ya Mu knows him as well. but yeah, Jahnke's Healing Promise of Qi has been my standard textbook since 2007. i should have earned a percentage of his profits by now!

yes, i got that from your original post. did you read my reply? all attachments are not created equal. what about your attachment to the use of language to communication with others? now that i've labeled it an attachment is it now the same type of hindrance that spiritual masters have been referring to for millennia? if your point is simply "attachments are bad," then maybe your lead-in post could have been different. but whatever. i was merely trying to elucidate the subject of traditions & lineages which you don't seem to have much of a grasp on. but to grasp them might constitute an attachment, so maybe you shouldn't get it...? i don't know. i'm out.

better? of course not. different? well yes, of course. the subject seems a bit mired in semantics before the discussion has even begun. and both questions seem to miss the mark, which (i think) is "what is the significance or importance of having a lineage or tradition?" language is imperfect, so the simple fact that you are able to call a tradition or lineage an "attachment" doesn't necessarily make it the same as someone's attachment to a house or a job or social status. tradition and lineages might be better understood as disciplines rather than objects. you commit yourself to a specific series of exercises and austerities, and the idea is that the quality of your unfolding, the level of your awakening, should be the same as that of the originator of that tradition. also, the support and grace that aids you in your process depends on the lineage you're plugged into. i'm oversimplifying this because i don't want to write a book here, but i often find myself in communion AND in communication with masters from my lineage, simply by sitting in meditation. i find the support to be invaluable. some people use tradition and lineage interchangeably, but i don't think they are the same. can might co-exist seamlessly at times, but the grace of my lineage guides and empowers me even as i experiment with practices of multiple traditions. now, maybe the question that should be asked is, "is it necessary to plug into a tradition and/or lineage for spiritual growth?" of course not. but does it make a difference? well yes, of course.

i have all of his qigong materials, levels 1-3. The Sauce is weak in this one... for someone of your experience, there's not really anything there for you. but i wouldn't mind lending you the materials if you're interested. btw, sorry that i've been MIA. you happened to catch me at the start of a pretty hard core transitional period. i DO hope to make up for my flakiness, though. Tummoessence and i just talked this afternoon about getting together soon. maybe we can work something out to where you can join us one of these days. if you're still up for it, there is still much i'd like to share with you.

i would imagine that if this were accurate, then the shakers of Bali would have been dropping like flies over the past few years. they shake from 6 to 8 hours each day, and seekers who have engaged the practice have healed everything from drug addiction to cancer. better to approach such practices with the wisdom of ignorance, as Keeney would put it. explore it for yourself and know it intimately. you don't need lessons or a book to access it directly. but... in our modern time, what we DO know about the body (which the masters of old probably did not know) is that the skeletal structure is piezoelectric, meaning that when stress is applied (like through shaking) electromagnetic fields are generated. you can very easily energize every cell of the body, and without having to specifically direct energy or intention. simply surrendering. i may write a post about it all when i get back from retreat, but this is something worth considering in the meantime.

well, let me be the first to chime in really quick. if you were going by yourself, i would say go for it. then, if it's really not your scene, just bail. no harm, no foul. but if you have a girlfriend who's more open, more outgoing, and has already been changed by the experience, the hard truth is that an even like that could actually make or break the relationship. you should consider that. it happens more often than you think. plus, if you're thinking of the event as a sort of transactional opportunity in which you'll gain some abstract spiritual value, you're really not ready to embrace the experience and you'll likely miss what's actually there. not sure if that's fair, but it reads like that's where you're coming from. so that's it. it's on you though.

don't think it makes much of a diff. it's a flawed term, and you probably didn't want this much of a breakdown, but for clarification: i'm referring to my pursuit of direct experience and understanding, outside of the interpretations or beliefs of any knowledge community. i'm not as interested in teachings as i am in accessing those states from which the teachings were derived, and doing so with little-to-no roadmap, so as not to obscure the naked unfolding with any expectation of what should be encountered. and while i DO study quite a bit and even fall in love with teachers, i don't consume the information as my own personal understanding unless it directly reflects what i have seen or attained or perhaps glimpsed. no real concern with getting to a specific finish line (although i DO actually anticipate that i will awaken in this lifetime, though i have no expectation of what that will look like). i'm far more engaged with the journey itself, and i'm not left depending on other schools or individuals whispering secrets of trivia. the secrets are there for the accessing. for me, THAT'S the pursuit of Truth with a capital T. from your location it is definitely MY truth, but from my location i know it as THE truth.

+1 often i wish i had your heart, Susan. even as a healer, my passion for Truth exceeds my compassion for suffering. it's a wonder that i'm successful at all. not to say that i am heartless, but i do have a ways to go before i reach your emotional depth. believe me when i say i'm working on it.

and what i'm saying is that the oral traditions and ecstatic tradition disprove your point because rather than handing down maps, they transmitted their direct access to the territories. i think i got your meaning fine. maybe i just didn't flesh out my own enough. i don't know. maybe you're talking about Buddhas with a big B, and i'm talking about buddhas with a small b. so if your contention is also that only those who have an explanation have a right to the title, i neither dispute nor care about that. but i'm arguing that buddhas, as in "awakened ones," passed transmissions of wisdom (consciousness, energy) long before transmitting specific lineages of practice became the thing. and NO, i'm not calling LANGUAGE white man's invention. i'm calling out elitism of white intellectual inquiry. for instance, calling tribal stories and beliefs SUPERSTITIONS. it's a loaded, belittling term that veritably calls them inferior or "savages" without having to say it. HALLUCINATIONS was another such term that for years kept us in the dark about that nature of certain practices. ecstatic movement was labeled seizures. was that your intention? of course not. but i do think it's a flaw of the intellectual/academic framework. and i'm certainly not alone in terms of historical and anthropological critique. well, to be fair, you write an awful lot, and attempting to hold everything in consideration for a complete and thorough response is just not something i want to do when it comes to your arguments. most of the time i just remain silent because it would take FOREVER to address all of your stuff. just not gonna happen. *shrugs* really? out of context? http://www.rigpa.org/en/about-rigpa.html he was explaining the meaning of rigpa. that was the context. your "of course" comment means it's not out of context at all. what you added was NOT part of the context, however. anyway, i've said my peace. this has taken way too long. i probably should have just remained silent like i tend to do mostly these days. my time might have been better spent sleeping. EDIT: see? now this post is basically mute because you wrote another, LONGER post, that this one doesn't address. i'm just not gonna bother trying to keep up with you. so i'll just let it go. you win.

didn't mean to throw you two together that way. my bad. i just read through the thread really quick, and you two were the ones i wanted to respond to. with respect to you, it was just the one comment: to which i say that chaos is not necessarily an evil to be avoided, and that kundalini needs an open and willing vessel, framework optional. i could flesh that out some, but that's my basic gist, just for clarification. okay, off to bed.

i never said that he ADVOCATES a structureless path. i didn't even imply that. he's a Tibetan lama, so duh. what i'm saying is that he gets that the state or condition (whatever you want to call it) of enlightenment does not belong to buddhism or any established tradition, and therefore doesn't exclude the other, lesser understood, indigenous or ecstatic ways. what i'm saying is nothing more than the obvious. some flowers study methods on how to bloom, but that doesn't make them the gatekeepers of the sun.

true, but it DOES mean that the road doesn't have to be paved, and that the path doesn't necessarily have to be a road. i get what you AND 5et are saying in this thread, but you overestimate the importance of learned, structured material. i know you've done your homework. and i also know that you've had your direct experiences for which the written word is at best an almost fictional substitute. so you couldn't possibly believe that institutionalized protocols of spiritual study and practice came PRIOR to enlightenment. and if they didn't come prior, then they cannot be essential. but your dismissive attitude toward the indigenous peoples and their practices (and NO, you DON'T have enough experience there to assess the quality of their spiritual culture. cut that out.) is grating on my very soul right now. the beauty of the oral traditions and the indigenous practices is the very point of contention here. the chaos present in their ways is not a flaw; it's the very crucible of their genius! the practitioner gets out of the way and surrenders to being overtaken by something they believe to be greater than themselves. something they believe to be the essence of GOD. and it doesn't manifest itself in a consistent pattern or in a specific linear progression of conscious expansion. what is to manifest is born radically in that moment, and it's not following a script. that they don't have an intellectual language to express it in a way the white folks are bound to respect only means that you are not in a position to judge. your vantage point is not objective. it's not value-free. if nothing else, your direct experiences should have demonstrated to you the extent to which you really don't know what you don't know, and to which the intellect generates useless approximations of these wisdoms. and i believe that the TRUE authorities in buddhism, like Sogyal Rinpoche, GET THIS! so yeah, i'm with shaktimama.

the three primary regulations: body (relaxation, posture, stance), breath (natural breathing, buddhist breathing), and mind (focused awareness). that's where it all began, and it continues to be at the core of what i do.

yes, this happens. it's one of the hazards of teaching high-level arts. not every student will graduate. that's just how it is. good teachers minimize the fall-out, but there are bound to be a few casualties if the work is really sensitive. i agree that SOME of his books are not instructional, and actually, it's for the very reason you just highlighted. he doesn't make the mystical stuff totally instructional so that just anybody can grab the books and get themselves into trouble potentially. he writes moreso to preserve the information. but that's the zheng yi taoist mysticism stuff. his two internal martial arts books are QUITE good, and they helped me reach higher levels in my own development. yeah, in case you didn't know, i got a crush on JAJ! Waysun Liao is a real master, and if i remember correctly, he doesn't acknowledge Clyman as a disciple. i get that Clyman has some skill, but that doesn't win him very many points with me. Clyman is unbalanced in his practices, and he sells it like it's a virtue. i wouldn't put him in the same league as JAJ. and if you do your due diligence in your studies, you are bound to come across all the techniques that Clyman employs. shifting balance, breath pressures, visualizations/directing with intent, breathing in and out of specific parts of the body, tension/relaxation. whatever. i applaud Clyman's work ethic for sure, but his scope is very, very limited, and he comes across as a jerk who drinks way too much coffee. there are people in this forum who impress me far more than Clyman. but i guess it's just a question of what you're looking for.

like everyone else who has responded, i agree with most of what has already been stated. what i have to say is mostly just a re-ordering or an extension of the same ideas. what your friend is experiencing is actually the POINT of meditation, particularly for beginners. beginners who lack the benefit of a teacher tend to abandon their practice right when the real healing & development process begins. meditation is internal discipline and work, not a daily vacation from the world. anapana, vipassana, and zen are designed to agitate the nervous system, push the neurological conditioning into a mild state of overwhelm, and then stimulate a deeper, more complex reorganization that allows the system to take on more with greater and greater serenity. but before that deeper calm is achieved, the practitioner has to get through that middle passage. your friend should read a meditation book like Breath By Breath or Turning The Mind Into An Ally. or better yet, discuss it with an in-person teacher. but what your friend is experiencing is EXACTLY appropriate. it's not unhealthy; it's just unpleasant. the job is to recognize what is unfolding and allowing it to run its course, neither chasing after the good feelings, nor running away from the bad ones. there's a deeper peace that exists beyond drama of the ups and downs, and THAT'S what we begin to cultivate by simply noticing and allowing the process to take place. some people crawl the walls at zen and vipassana retreats. some people have even made websites calling vipassana a CULT because of all the negative emotions they went through, yet they abandoned the process before it reached completion, so they remained in a somewhat "shell-shocked" state, and they took that to be proof of the evil intent of vipassana. and some people simply don't have the mental/emotional fortitude to endure the necessary work. it's not for everybody. but most often it's just a misunderstanding about what meditation does and what a healthy developmental process looks like. your friend is doing fine, but they've gotta stop jumping ship when the work begins. all that nervous system baggage needs to clear out, but in order for that to happen they need to stay the course.

i own these books currently. JAJ has the best material, but it's not the easiest stuff to fully digest without a teacher or at least a highly competent partner to keep you on-task before jumping ahead too soon. i own the Xing Yi Nei Gong book as well as the DVD that Miller produced. good disciplined training regimen, but nothing special that you can't get elsewhere. B.K. Frantzis and Jerry Alan Johnson are your best bets, methinks. you and i have such similar backgrounds in our spiritual pathwork that it's almost scary! i really think you'll get the most mileage out of Frantzis and Johnson, but especially Johnson. Johnson's books aren't easy to find and might even be a little pricey, but i'm sure i could help you out if necessary. i personally think that Kosta Danaos kinda ruined the definition of neigung, and now everyone who's teaching something that's on a higher level than health maintenance wants to appropriate the term. it's almost better to abandon the term when searching for the material you're looking for. Clyman's a jerk. his techniques work, but they're nothing special unless you lack vision. his techniques can be found scattered across a dozen or so sources, few of which will be labeled as neigung. but if you can only recognize a technique's value by its label, well,... Clyman's overpriced and his techniques are unnecessarily fiery. i'll eventually own and catalog his videos too, but i refuse to pay his ridiculous prices. we should totally talk.

absolutely. well put.

hmm... not sure what you mean when you say "proven" abilities, but i know what has been demonstrated to me and what i have done. but can i prove it? not likely. as for "solely/primarily" from the west, again, i'm not sure what you mean. to my knowledge there is no occult practice that is the exclusive domain of any one tradition. Tibetan Bon and Taoist magics do the same things that the west does at the highest levels, just with different names and symbols & whatnot. but with that being said: healing as well as hexing or making sick, because they believe you must be skilled at both to truly understand what you are doing and what you are not doing. the only eastern practitioner i know who has ever taught that publicly is JAJ, who believes that you need to be able to distinguish your energies that create cancer and your energies that destroy it. otherwise you end up with new age beliefs like in the Reiki community which believes the energy that's transmitted can never be harmful, no matter what state the practitioner is in. telekinesis is a big one. everyone practices this to some level of competency. generating ones own energy and focus to move light objects is an elementary level, which typically begins with something like causing the surface of a dish of water to ripple. but a high-level practitioner might conjure a being that is without our physical limitations (of acquiring and storing energy) and can therefore move much larger objects. btw, the "beings" that are conjured are not necessarily "beings" in the sense of being separate, individual lifeforms. but it doesn't matter. that's a much more involved discussion. for the purpose of this discussion, the incantation is what matters as it's a very different level of practice from just basic energy manipulation. depending on what system you're studying, weather magick is an important practice as well. splitting clouds, gathering clouds, calling the wind and the rain. i've seen and have been taught a little weather magic, which is one of the reasons i practice outdoors and cultivate during thunder storms, even though almost every qigong master advises against it. you can really screw up your system if you don't know what you're doing. and if you're really unfortunate, you can generate a high enough concentration of ions to get hit with lightning. that would suck. astral projection is a shifting and evolving practice. nowadays there are too many ways to remote view that DON'T build & refine the energy body, so a lot of groups are now more interested in your ability to perform an entire ritual in your mind's eye, with perfect clarity, and without moving the physical body. it sort of forces the quality of astral projection that's not necessarily present in other supposed acts of astral travel. what else can i share: inside a pyramid in Cairo, Crowley performed a ritual wherein which he conjured a light out of thin air and read from it. i've seen this done a few times. i've participated in demon evocation and banishment, and i've seen crazy invocation/possession rituals. i've seen other 'flashy' stuff, too. and of course, there are things i'll never speak of and certainly won't share on a public forum where there are so many kids running around trying to play DragonBall Z. i've seen people screw themselves up, too. in the 80's and 90's there was a house in Berkeley where people would go to recover from failed works or unintended side-effects (like schizophrenia). and i saw a lot of unskilled young people who seemed almost eager to screw themselves up just to have something to brag about. anything to be in the club, i guess. the real work was to ultimately make every act a magickal one. where you can manipulate the world with ease, where your will unfolded without effort, and where all occurrences communicate wisdom to you. you can read a crowd or a freeway or a weather pattern the way that new age people read tarot cards. you can knock an item out of a stranger's hand in order to set in motion a series of events that will lead two people to fall for each other, but might also lead to a tragic car accident if you're not paying attention. it gets pretty out there. but i've pretty much seen all of this stuff up close in one way or another. all from western esoteric groups and practices. this stuff is not for everyone, whether we're talking east or west. some folks can here the music, and some folks can't. most of the people on this board won't achieve much of anything, no matter how many years they put into it. others will work 10 times harder than i ever had to and still only barely achieve mediocrity. Buddha said that everyone can awaken. Buddha lied. it's the most obvious thing in the world. but at least he got people trying to better themselves. *shrugs* but without sufficient emotional fortitude and mental depth, without sufficient strength of will and detachment from the petty and mundane, you will peak before you are even halfway up the mountain.

okay, i didn't thoroughly read every single post in this thread, but i think i read enough to throw in my spare change. not sure about anyone else around here, but Seth Ananda and i share a similar background in the Western Esoteric traditions. that's where i really began my journey. here's my very general opinion: people who are overly concerned with acquiring "abilities" might do better studying a western magical system as opposed to an eastern mystical one. the thing about magick is that it concerns itself primarily with the acquisition of abilities. and YES, there are MANY practitioners who acquire them. i was one of them. one of my teachers, and author, David Allen Hulse, was amazing. another author, Lon Milo Du Quette, is also highly adept in the use of various 'abilities.' Du Quette is in the public eye, sort of. Hulse is closed door, but he openly gives interviews. i have had the privilege of witnessing the skills of them both. the trouble with the western systems is NOT the efficacy of the practices, bur rather the lack of work ethic on the part of the practitioners. it actually works as a sort of filter to weed out folks and to cast a shadow on the entire realm of practices so that the societies very easily remain secret. the outer circles are filled with disaffected youth and childish adults who ultimately become the face of the westerns orders. they have no real understanding or skill, and that keeps the browsers moving along. but anyone who engages the practices with the same discipline as is standard for the eastern arts will see that they are very effective and not to be trifled with. the ceremonies and incantations can often work in a manner that sort of hacks into the psyche to produce desired results. depending on the task, one false step can prove disastrous. Aliester Crowley was on the level. Boleskine House was no fluke. the magicks that were conjured there were very real, just misunderstood by laypeople. Thelemites face East in their rituals. east by north-east. they do this because they honor Boleskine House as their Mecca, of sorts. Crowley didn't even complete the rituals of Abramelin the Mage while he was there, but he rendered the veils in such a way that Boleskine became the fulcrum of the Thelemic Current. i ultimately abandoned the Western systems because they were obsessed with acquiring personal power and because so few had the intelligence to properly cultivate it. i was even granted access to the inner circles where the TRUE Thelemites commune, but their hunger for power exceeded their thirst for understanding. they wanted to win their games, whereas i longed to be defeated. defeated DECISIVELY. by something greater than myself. i know western occultists who could impress the masses with their abilities, but they will ultimately face annihilation. the magickal path is ultimately a dead-end. the mystical path IS the path. i chose the East because the distinction is far more clear and intuitive.

WOW! hey Cam. it's been FOREVER! good to hear from you again, brother. i know a lot of people have wondered what you've been up to lately.

Okay, it has been a year now, so i thought i would finally bump this thread and see if maybe Blue Dragon is still lurking around and would like to play. there are some good posts in this thread anyway, so it would be good for people to start at the beginning. what i want to know is what Blue Dragon (or anyone else who might want to continue the discussion) thinks of the practice now, assuming he/she has stayed consistent for the past year. how does it match up NOW with other previously learned systems. and whatever happened to that Mao Shan post that was supposed to be forthcoming? although i wasn't very interested at the time, Sifu Jenny Lamb has helped me to appreciate Mao Shan's arts, and i've done a little more study in that area.

wow, sensitive much? it was a fair question, considering the way that you packaged it. consider all of the half-baked claims that have been made over the years. it's not unreasonable to want some verification. i mean, that was one hell of a claim. normally, i would have been the first person to ask that question, but lately it seems that every time i get even a little critical, the fit hits the shan. speaking of shan, you could have just said the sect was the precursor to the better-known Mao Shan sect, and that probably would have been enough since most of us are familiar with Mao Shan as a sect of sorcerers who were feared by other Taoist sects. their reputation is well-known within this forum. i own more than 120 qigong/neigong DVDs, and i am always happy to learn something new and support a fellow bum. the only reason i hadn't picked up your DVDs yet was because of the claim that Seth pointed out. BUT, if the site i just read is correct, and if shang ch'ing really is the predecessor of the mao shan, then that's verification enough for me. you're probably gonna have a lot of excited students on your hands pretty soon. knowing this, i would be MORE likely to check out your DVDs. and had Seth never asked, i would never have looked. i had already just moved on. now i'm glad that i know, and you should be glad that it's out, cuz there are a LOT of Mao Shan fans around here.