rene

Mutual arising = Both. Not possible for me to 'give up' who I am, lol.

D.A.D., hiya (-: Didn't think for a second you were referring to me, heh, nor was I referring to you or anyone specefic. All good. You raise a great point, though, which really kinda makes mine re finding the spiritual within the physical - regardless of the environment in which one dwells. Dont be fooled, there is as much hell here as there is heaven. Every moment is one of equal creation and destruction; such is the Way and I wouldn't change it. (-: Ready for Ch2 anytime!

These two: Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.

Glad you waited, D.A.D., not quite done with Ch1. To me, from my perspective of "Both", the two lines about desires are the most important in the whole ttc - for understanding how to live life, in balance. It is desire - that gives us momentum, the impetus for improvement, in our lives and others'. The desire for clean fresh water is what prompted me to dig a well. The desire to make others comfortable is why I spend energy doing just that. The desire to stay alive is why I make the choices I do. Having desires is natural and part of the physical, the manifest,... and is one half of the whole. The other half, the spiritual, the mystery, is that wordless aspect we all recognize as also part of who we are...yes? Some traditions feel that the more one can turn his/her back on the manifest - the more one will find/understand the mystery. I disagree with that idea. From my perspective, denying one half of the whole takes one farther from understanding the whole. Finding the spiritual within the physical, knowing the mystery within the manifest, brings the balance. The applications of this are endless. They arise together, unboundaried, mystery & manifest, there is no gate back to the source, for none is needed. (-: Perpetual imo applied, all thoughts welcome.

Slight tangent: VERY cool replies that show the differences in what resonates for each of us: interpretative, personal, scholastic, contemplative, excited, both. Maybe the magic of the ttc is that it brings to words what is already there, and nameless, in us all. (-: /end tangent

D.A.D., just fyi, I cant sign out either and it's okay; you wont lose anything. It's NOT an open door, if you know what I mean. Warm regards (-:

Here's the first four lines of Ch1 (F/E): The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of the ten thousand things. Imo, this is perfect entry into the ideas in the ttc: It conveys that there are two levels, realms, distinct parts of the whole. (Later in Ch1 it shows how they are also not separate. Ch1 is the first hint re Both, unboundaried, same time.) Comments?

Yay! When you started talking 'available times' I thought ohhhhh.../-: Start anytime, following your lead. (-:

I'd love to join in as I can, if you don't mind unusual ideas. (-:

I see it as Penumbra not knowing itself. A penumbra is the outer edge of a shadow; it moves when the shadow moves. Pot, meet kettle.

Football gods & refs.

Heh, methinks Penumbra is tired of Shadow jerking him around.

A point to football? We need a point to football? Go Vikings! Go Hawks! :)

Thanks, Aetherous. Usually EMDR uses eye movements, but my eyes weren't able to handle the process, so alternate tapping on my knees (while sitting with eyes closed) provided the necessary alternating-hemisphere stimulus. (-:

Never mind, found it. (-:

Sometimes. Wu Dao. (-:

: Hands MH a copy of DDJ 17 :

If you need it to have a point, give it one. Not knowing the answer, I choose joy.

You could always ask them if they've seen Star Wars..

BES, hi. I had total success with EMDR 5 years ago. My eyes weren't able to handle the process, so alternate tapping on my knees (while sitting with eyes closed) provided the necessary alternating stimulus required for treatment. Saved my life, that.

sagebrush,hi, glad you had the chance to do what you needed to do, heh. No worries re hijacking the thread - the discussion part was pretty much done anyway. Dawei can unpin it, or leave it pinned, as he chooses; thanks everyone for your votes & words!! Warmest regards (-:

Ten thousand thanks, Daeluin! Now I can more easily find the roots of your flowers, and promise not to yank on them too hard. (-:

Hello sagebrush You could study the Tao if you want I guess... yet I've heard it said that once the fish is caught - of what use is the net? (-: Warm greetings

I am. The Tao is forever undefined. Small though it is in the unformed state, it cannot be grasped. If kings and lords could harness it, The ten thousand things would come together And gentle rain fall. Men would need no more instruction and all things would take their course. Once the whole is divided, the parts need names. There are already enough names. One must know when to stop. Knowing when to stop averts trouble. Tao in the world is like a river flowing home to the sea.

Hi Daeluin. I quoted your original post from above to preserve it; some of your insightful to-the-point ideas here were pretty well lost in the complexity of the expanded version. Kinda thought that might happen which is why I asked for an "as-is" thread. Oh well, it's all good, eh? (-: Warm regards