rene

Okay. First I apologize to CD for this interrupting post. dawei - your post tossed me as you have more knowledge of these things. I was always of the idea that 1) ZZ expanded/complicated the ideas of LZ, not reduced/simplified them. 2) ZZ said Dao is even in the sh*t - not Dao is the sh*t. marblehead - would you, as you have time and only if you wish, start a new thread on the differences between LZ and ZZ in these matters? I know of no other here that is as versed in both of them, than you. Please place any replies to this post in that new thread, if MH makes one, to not further interfere with this one. Thanks!

I think it's okay we disagree about this. To me, mind is not inherently only dualistic: aspects of the non-dual are there as well. Sometimes most evident in creative artistic expressions. Maybe there's an artist or two here that could elaborate on the sources of inspiration that flow from the mystical. (-:

Hey RV! Wonderful to see you! (-: The two realms I refer to (and terms others call them) are: 1. Mystery - emptiness, wu, nothingness, unformed (qi), etc 2. Manifest - physical, reality, fullness, yo, formed, etc Some 'concept ideas' dance (travel) easily between the realms: potential, spiritual, etc. Potential, for example is sourced in Mystery - but is easily measurable in some manifest applications. (Kinetic energy, etc) Sorry my last post was unclear! I'm kinda out of practice using words, heh. warmest regards

More words count less; hold fast to the center.

Because freedom is a state of mind - and that is the realm of ideas. Choose without choosing. (-:

I somewhat recall that, but not specifically what it was. Must have been something so inherently simple that ZZ couldn't twist it. (-:

Lots of nice guys have wrong ideas. (-: Nah..that's unfair. And maybe his ideas were fine - but he (actually his followers who wrote the ZZ long after he was dead) took the simple ideas clearly laid out in The Laozi and complicated them unnecessarily. But hell, that's okay. Everybody needs a hobby, eh?

Yes, limits abound within the Manifest. I'm talking about the Manifest being unboundaried with the Mystical. Both are present in all things; interacting, rising and falling.

Agree totally. 'Both' realms are needed; which is why traditions that encourage only the emptiness are as lopsided as the ones who ignore the mystical completely. imo, of course. .

What?? And how exactly did Li Erh say Dao was 'obtained' ??? (I dont care about ZZ) (sorry, maybe too much wine here) Wait - Are you talking about Taoist Cultivation practices (that were revisionistically included in the laozi renditions by those who needed them in there for support of their dogma??) Or ?? Thanks!

They know nothing of dao - like a fish knows nothing of water. They just swim in it. (-:

Nice post 3bob From The Laozi Ch 23: He who follows the Tao Is at one with the Tao. .. He who loses the way Is lost. .. When you are at one with the Tao, The Tao welcomes you. .. When you are at one with loss, The loss is experienced willingly. Because Tao is everywhere, it is in 'loss' as well. By trusting that,, the 'return' of Tao occurs ~ and the way is found again. ( At least that's how I find my way back home in the dark. )

Oh! I'm not talking about practical applications! For me, everything is unboundaried physical and mystical. Tzujan is the of the veiled world, reaching into this one, giving rise to to the manifest's self-so-ness. Never mind. warm regards

Reflection, yes; because, for me, Tzujan is the 'why' ____ does what it does. A force will push against a rock. (observable, measurable, explainable influences) Why does a force push? (what causes force's dynamics to even occur at all?) Because that is what it does. (Tzujan) Why do subatomic particles attract/repel? Because that is what they do. (Tzujan) Edit:typo

Better for who/what ? Better for the humans who could utilize it for their benefit? Better for the natural ecosystem as part of the cycle of cleansing and re-growth? (like prairie fires) ? I like when actions & ideas make things better for me. But I don't pretend that what benefits me - doesn't also take away from someone/something else. Its not possible to cause only benefit; its not possible to cause only harm. Such is the Way of Tao.

The 'influences' show us the 'how' the 'action/reaction' of an system/event occurs Earthquakes occur due to geologic forces (pressure, etc) But the 'reason' the subatomic interactions of matter cause pressure to occur at all is - That is what they do. Tzujan.

Right! Against the flow of mechanical/natural forces. And - Tao, to me, flows in all directions simultaneously - so it's not possible to flow against Tao or the Way of Tao. Every moment of change, every action and non-action, is one of equal simultaneous creation and destruction, equal simultaneous going and returning. Such is the Way of Tao. Perpetual IMO applied. (-: p.s... "Flow" isn't precisely the right word or even idea here because it implies movement relative to a fixed position. With Tao everywhere, it really is an undefinable process. But..since words are all we have to discuss this... 'flow' will have to do. Hopefully using the word isn't imprinting too much misconception in those who still seek what was never lost in the first place.

Silent Thunder, powerful post, thanks for sharing it, and yes. That's what happened with my late husband, too. Instaneous. And why three and a half years later I was still lost/empty. There'd been several opportunites to 'date' since he died (and gently declined), and tons of awesome eye-candy around here...but... nothing sparked until the lightning known as Tom struck. "None of them felt like I decided much though. If anything, I'm more like a leaf, compelled to dance in the flow of the forces about me." Same here, and I like it. I've found, over the years, that when I just let what comes come - really amazing things happen. You know the old saying "Man plans; God laughs" ? Yep. LOL. Floating in the Tao brings everything.. or so it seems to me. (-: warm regards

Funny, yes, and not a dam thing you can do about it either. That's what happened when I met Tom. I wasn't looking for someone. I walked into the local auto shop at 7am to try and get my car winterized - and there he stood behind the counter. Thunderstruck, me. Him, too. Together ever since. Not sure how long it will last or what happens next but I'm sure as hell not complaining.

Hi guys, great thread 3bob Marblehead, I agree with most your words - and it was really nice to see Dr Wang's words again. I've lost touch with him and hope he is still well. Regarding this part of your post: I understand what you're pointing at and agree with your thought - but, to me, that's still not against the Way of Tao. It might be against the "Way that would produce a beneficial (to us) outcome" but the Way of Tao still has no preferences as to our success or not. You allude to this below - and I agree. It's just the bolded sentence (above) that gives a misimpression, imo. I know others who assign our "doing the right thing" as being "following the way of Tao". It's not. Right/wrong (beneficial/harmful) are subjective actions. Nothing wrong with doing the 'right' thing (usually) but to assign a specific path/action as being tao or not-tao --- reflects a non-understanding of what, to me, is the greatest gift of all: A non-partial Tao, and a non-partial Way of Tao. *** Sorry for the digression: back to Tzujan! Spontaneously, of course!! 3bob said: To me, yes, it is reflected in the physical world but as it is an aspect of the spiritual/mystery - its reflection is of a very numinous manner. For example: healthy skin will replace (regenerate) itself by creating new skin cells as old ones sluff away. Skin cells. Not muscle or fat cells - skin cells. Self-creating, naturally, because of the DNA programming to do so. To me, Tzujan answers the question of 'why' the cells self-create. We can observe, through science and other means, what occurs - and physical cause/effect of events etc. But not the underlying 'why' things happen at all !! It might be Tzujan enables (or is!!) the spark between inanimate and animate, and matter as it manifests in each moment of change. with one foot in both worlds, warm regards

Good words; my experience finds the same to be true for us women as well. warm regards

Yep. Amazing how that happens. It's like, the heart goes - oh! there it is! And not a dam thing we can do about it, imo **** manitou - i've come to another realization since my earlier post. kind of a full circle thing but with a different outcome. I AM responsible for my own Happiness, yes. And for me to be happy I need to stay true to my own nature. It's in my nature to thrive with an inseparable mate. It doesn't need to be 24/7 - but 20/7 would be nice. So...if that lines up with Tom's nature - wonderful! If not... I'm not sure what will happen. I hope it does... but he needs to stay true to his nature, too. Who knows what life will bring next? I like not knowing. More exciting that way!

lemme know if you need a judge to decide (-:

manitou, the jigsaw puzzle-piece analogy is spot on. (-: VonKrankenhaus, Aetherous, kind words, thanks and you're most welcome. warm regards