rene

Post #29 in this thread explains about 'containers'; post #102 in the Home Taoist Alter thread explains about how they might cause harm. My objection about using "looking for tao" as a teaching method is that not only does it start with an invalid premise (that tao is separate), it leaves the door wide open for those who prey on they who seek. warm regards

heheh good morning dragon nice to see you again. safe journeys (-:

No reason to look for what cant be lost.

Clarifying would only be re-stating ideas in my posts over two threads, which, if you didn't read or understand them then I seriously doubt any of my words would make sense to you now... so... nevah mind. (-: warm regards

CD - thank you for replying to my question. warm regards

and that, sree, is how 'containers' can be harmful. warm regards

Ah.. there is the heart of the matter. (-: When that which comes through The Laozi resonates so powerfully it's almost like we're compelled to do something, anything, with what we feel. It may come through slowly for some, quickly for others, and instantaneously for a few... but, imo, eventually it does come through and what we choose to do with it when it gets to our individual tipping point can vary greatly. If you want to keep the resonance somewhat confined it can be focused through a specific tradition/ritual/dogma. It doesn't matter if the 'altar' is chinese taoist, philosophical taoist, a statue of buddha, a christian cross or a menorah or any other sacred object or perimetered space; what does matter is that the resonance has a focus, a container, a place to experience and somewhat control what is felt. This is why I cannot help you build your altar, sree. My natural way is to let the resonance expand to its own shape and form, and I cannot perceive its limits or boundaries. warm regards

Which word do you not understand? Your posts reinforce the idea that Tao is something separate, that needs to be found. Here's an example. http://thetaobums.com/topic/27965-help-me-understand/page-3#entry424414 informer24 said he was looking for tao. you said you'd help him find it. Do you, ChiDragon, think Tao is something that needs looking for?

CD yeah well I have a question for you. Why do you reinforce the idea that Tao is something separate to be found?

whooo hooo! I get to be the ghost. (-: Stosh is right... what do you mean by 'worship' and what is it that you are 'worshiping' ? warm regards

never mind (-:

zerostao, hi, kind words, thanks! trying to balance on only one foot illusion or reality spiritual or physical surface or sublime might seem like progress but either foot is still only half of the whole About 6 years ago, a group of philosophical taoists got together (online and irl) to try and do exactly what sree (and maybe newTaoist) and others have in mind: to move their practice and philosophy into more of a tangible thing. There was plenty of initial interest and agreement... but certain organizational points (like how to ordain 'priests') left them unable to proceed after a couple years into the project. As far as I know it's been pretty quiet for a while now, but it's rather interesting to read their ideas, and how they tried to move from the philosophical towards the religious: http://www.reformtaoism.org/ warm regards

Maybe a better question is, what do you seek? I understand the wanting to incorporate something physical like altars into a spiritual path like philosophical taoism. To me, that wanting reflects the natural perception that one can be empty without the other... like one half of the whole. One way to do this is what you're attempting: to create specific ritual/altar/rites that mirror your spiritual thought. Another way to do this is to recognize that the physical is already within the spiritual, that there is no boundary between inner and outer, and that all of life contains both the form and formlessness. Not either/or. Not one or the other. Both at the same time. After understanding this, the universe becomes your 'altar' and joy abounds. Because of this, you can enjoy and celebrate with any tradition for at the core of all is the same unboundaried tao. Or so it seems to me. (-: warm regards

sree, I am not Daoist, philosophical or otherwise. btw, this will be my last post to you in this thread; I'd rather hear newTaoist's and other's ideas about traditional taoist altars. (-: warm regards

LOL I'll see your ZZ and raise you an LZ Who said anything about formlessness only? From my earlier post to you (#105): Regarding what you quoted, you either missed or didn't understand or chose to ignore my response to JBH (post #102) so here it is again: - in other words, there is nothing separate to follow. sree, do you see Tao as something separate to follow, or set an altar to, or to worship? It seems like you do so maybe I can help you with that. Time for a new thread. Let's build sree an altar. (-: warm regards

yer welcome. I didn't use the search function at all. From the Tao Lounge, I clicked on the "Taoist Text studies" or whatever that subforum is now called - and then manually clicked on all the pages until I found the link for 32. It didn't take too long - I knew it was an old thread so I started from the back, LOL FWIW, I have NEVER found what i was looking for using the search function so rarely bother with it. Luckily, there were only 9 pages to look through in this case. Good luck with the manual search method in the general or main taoist forum section. :-/ Usually, I can remember who said what it is i'm looking for and try that route...but I now see that 'find members posts' from their profile doesnt go far back now. Oh well. (-:

Hi and I agree and also offer to help if it would help restore what we worked hard to set up in the first place. I found the CH 32 study on page 6 through a manual search, here ya go http://thetaobums.com/topic/18077-ttc-study-chapter-32-of-the-tao-teh-ching/ but it would be really nice to have the easier way back in place for those of us who enjoy referencing back often to see the ideas around the ideas. Sean? can you help us with this? Was there a reason they were removed in the first place?? Maybe there was good reason, I was offline over the winter so not around for the discussion. Thanks!

sree, hi Actually...that's not quite the case, either. Again, maybe another thread for this exploration would allow this one to get back to newTaoists original request for information? Regarding your invitation to help you create an altar - most appreciated, thank you, and I respectfully decline. For me, an 'altar' would be superfluous. (-: warm regards (edit for clarity)

Lao-Zhuang taoism is something other than (what is generally referred to as) Classical. This link may be of interest - http://www.daoiststudies.org/content/short-history-daoism-introduction from the link: Another thread would probably serve better if someone wants to explore this further. warm regards

sree, hi If one needs ( or even just enjoys! ) ritual and an altar to celebrate, what could be wrong with that? From a blended perspective, there is nothing that diminishes or isolates life, or the physical from the spiritual. My celebration is in every breath, every blink; your celebrations might be found at an altar or during specific times or events! I like that we each have our own ways. (-: warm regards

JBH, apologies! I incorrectly assumed, after reading your post, that you were aware of the unboundaried nature of tao. From my perspective, the internal is expressed through the external just as the external is expressed through the internal, and that an 'altar' (regardless of location) might be of both benefit and harm. Benefit in that it can serve as a reminder of the unboundaried nature of tao, and harm in the reinforcing of the idea there is something 'separate' that requires maintaining a connection to! Just to be clear, imo the benefit described above is not needed after that fish is caught. So does that leave only harm? Depends on the direction one wishes to go. Towards -isms , altars can be of great benefit. (-: warm regards

JBH - hi (-: Your three things make a good Tao altar... but not a Taoist altar. The difference between following tao and following taoism (religious or philosophical) seems to be lost in this thread. warm regards

The next step in which direction? In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped. For me, the mountains are my alter the rocks my body the streams my blood what small thing need remind me that every breath is prayer? After your 10 years, if you feel more needs to be added to help you find what was never lost in the first place, then that may indeed be your journey and I wish you well. (-: warm regards

hey taomeow - congrats on your promotion back to bum! (-: