rene

Travis, hi I strongly agree with Scott (turtle shell) regarding the Feng/English TaoTeChing. I've not seen this latest edition; I have the original from 1974 and I see that Amazon carries the 25th Aniv Edition - which is also amazing and one that I've purchased and given to friends...so they understand me better, lol. Here's the link to that one: http://www.amazon.co...ref=rdr_ext_tmb Now, may I be totally presumptuous and tell you how to read the F/E translation? Find a quiet spot, relax down, and open the book. Read the first chapter without trying to understand it, look at the picture and the calligraphy. Read it again. Feel what comes in with the words. Don't "try" to make sense of it, just let it caress you, let it in. What you might discover, is everything that is there, spoken and unspoken, you already know, it's already inside you. And it's there on the pages for you to see, plain as day. warm regards, and welcome (-: . . p.s... Most bookstores still carry this in stock. Save on shipping, lol

Stosh, jump in anytime! and yes, umbrella, and this one would be huge. Sorry delayed reply, was re-reading thread and just found your post. warm regards

Sam, hi From your post (#43) It seems since your "first use" lines up with my 'first meaning' and your 'second use' lines up with my 'second meaning' - that we are indeed comparing apples to apples - i.e. - that we're comparing LZ's Tao to ZZ's Tao, rather than comparing Tao to the "skillset of a craftsman". Do you agree that we're on the same page so far? LOL If so, then it sounds like you're saying that ZZ suggests there is no singular Tao at all (not even in LZCh1 ?) but rather only many Tao's. Am I reading you right? Thanks!

From Ch 25 (not 52) of The Laozi (Feng translation) Twenty-five Something mysteriously formed, Born before heaven and Earth. In the silence and the void, Standing alone and unchanging, Ever present and in motion. Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things. I do not know its name Call it Tao. Since so much of Flowing Hand's verson uses the word patterns, choices and language of Feng's, and since Flowing Hand's attributes his version as transmitted from LiErh (Laozi) directly to himself, I tend to lean a little more towards the idea that Feng's translation captures the intent of Laozi rather well. FWIW. **** RBSA - I think more than a few people have experienced what you've described. Everyone who tries to wrap words around it can only use the language of their own traditions/experiences. We can kinda describe it, like you tried to kinda describe it, but words alone are insufficient to convey... especially to those who have no personal experience of this. Still fun to try describing though, imo. Nice thread. warm regards

Thanks for the links, PaiMei, I like her too. Nice thread OldGreen. From the first podcast, about 15:00 in.. "You have to have a sense of humor, otherwise you take yourself to seriously, you take the situation too seriously. One of the biggest dangers is taking yourself too seriously and having a fragile ego and having a pumped up sense of self. You're just begging for it if you just walk into a situation because all of those create weaknesses in your personality and any being is going to use that against you. So, if you know that you're an idiot and dont mind laughing at yourself and everything else around you, it disengages all of that. There is no need for big titles and flowy robes and this temple and that secret and all of these things being terribly terribly serious is a sign of insecurity. And if you do have insecurity and you do come up against a powerful being, it will decimate you." Good stuff.

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Now that's good advice! I am so 'over' trying to clarify, to you, what I'm trying to say, or asking you what you might have meant by something you've said. Whew! Glad that's over. (-: warm regards

Haven't found enough reason?? That's just mean, marblehead. You need a reason?? How about because many of us do the same thing with 'Tao' or 'Way' that you do with 'Virtue'? Tao or Way = LZsCh1 Tao tao or way = the tao-s or way-s of man I'd think doing whatever we can to facilitate the exchange of ideas would be reason enough. It surprises me that you apparantly wouldn't agree with that capitalization method, even enough to find a 'reason' to assist with clarity. It's such a little thing. Not sure I care to spend the energy to type out "LZsCh1 Tao" just because you are unable or unwilling to grant the same courtesy others extend to you with your "Virtue/virtue". And this has nothing to do with nouns or verbs. It has to do with basic kindness and helping each other finding words that can work.

No difference, then. Thanks! warm regards

Is there a difference?

Agree! Tao is easily there. It's just allll thooooseeee wordddddsss.... lol. glad you joined in, shanlung! stay and keep us lined up!

Agree! Tao is easily there. It's just allll thooooseeee wordddddsss.... lol. glad you joined in, shanlung! stay and keep us lined up!

Idiot you may be, delightful you are. Glad you're here. Welcome. (-:

Hi Sam, I was using the 'epithet' in my post, only for the purpose of our discussions, to differentiate between the Tao described in LZ Ch1 and the use of the word 'tao' throughout both LZ and ZZ in the context of a specific entity's method, nature, path, etc. I'm afraid that you and I would be hard pressed to find my word choices in these texts. LOL Following the Tao (LZ'sCh1 Tao) is worth a thread of its own, a book of its own. Oh wait - one was already written. It's called The Laozi. (-: But what does it mean, 'to follow'? Is there a fixed path? method? Grab a map and go? To me, 'to follow' is more in the manner of 'to emulate'. To me, Tao has no 'fixed path' - and that is why a Sage does not (can not!) "follow" - for there is no where to go that Tao is not, i.e. Tao is right where one already is; unseparate and unboundaried. Trying to follow Tao would be like a fish trying to swim to where there is water. Of course, none of this is 'laid out' in The Laozi - but it's what comes through the text; resoundingly, for me. The bits I bolded above in your quote reflects the nature of LZsCh1Tao (which is the axis/pivot); other than that I can only and delightfully yield to you and others to discuss your ideas. I wish I could participate more in your analytical analyses dissecting the texts, but, alas, my skillset is not on the words themselves; rather what comes through them. I'll scan my reference when it comes, to see what might be added to your ideas, and if memory serves, there will be at least a little something. (-: warm regards

My little pea-brain wouldn't be able to work with that. Perhaps, but that's okay since this thread isn't about nouns and verbs.

SereneBlue - wonderful !! May I suggest a small idea? Since the Nei-yeh subforum has been idle for a while... maybe we could use that and (hopefully) when the Confucian subforum is created, those threads could be just moved over. As long as the first word in the thread title is "Confucius" or "Analects"..they'd be easy to identify. Unless you feel Sean is around and it wont be a month or two... We all know he's such a busy guy. Edit: Or even just start the project right here in the Taoism section, and later easily move the threads when the new subforum is created. Can you tell I'm looking forward to this? LOL

Thanks for clarifying your uses; which are different than mine. Now at least I'll know our (your and my) dialogues will have no chance whatsoever. LOLOL To make sure I understand your method: Tao as a noun = the Great Tao Tao as a verb = the Way of the Great Tao, and/or the ways of man, or the ways of motorcycle repair, etc. If that works for you, nothing wrong with that! My perspective finds the Great Tao as both noun and verb simultaneously; and the different "ways(taos)" of man sometimes line up harmoniously with surroundings and sometimes not. It's under that schema my earlier posts were made, and is part of samwardell's premise, I think. Now I'm going to find my way to a glass of zinfandel. (-: warm regards p.s...dont worry about defining the Great Tao. I slide my way out with a " _______ ". LOL edit: add colour to line up with earlier post to Sam

Marblehead, hi For clarity - this: Is all referring to noun/verb ideas about the "Great Tao", (regardless of what its named; Tao, Way, whatever). Is that correct? Thanks!

- Continued reply from above - Regarding: I disagree that this is a 'negative sense' by interpreting this use of tao as 'The Way'. The 'Great Tao' has no path to follow, fixed or otherwise! It is only the preference of humans to assign a delineated path to the Great Tao - and their assignments (sometimes called 'Principles') naturally reflect their own perspectives, preferences, or chosen tradition. Regarding: The peculiarity you speak of is indeed a puzzlement for many. Maybe an easier way to think about this is that inherent in every individual 'way' is the underlying 'great tao', which is indeed like the center point of the wheel where the individual spokes (ways) meet. I've heard this also called the 'pivot of tao'. From that center point, which has no 'parts or mechanism' - each individual 'way' springs forth, from their common source. And yes, from time to time that 'pivot of tao' does pop up seemingly out of nowhere! (as the word did in the passage) but is instantly recognizable... or so it seems to me. Sam, your post is so full of wonderful ideas to talk about. I think I'll pause for comments before continuing. warm regards

Sam, hi, no worries about the length of the post! Sometimes the longer one speaks the more chance others have to spot where there might be agreement, disagreement, confusion, etc. Your analysis of the word "tao", as it's used in those portions of the three writings you presented, seems logical. I'm a bit confused, however, as to why you would be confused (or feel there is confusion) regarding the applications or intended uses of the t-word, within or between the writings. From early days, it's understood that the t-word has two completely different meanings (more than just same word used as either a noun or verb. The noun/verb ideas can, and usually are!, debated about each of the meanings.) The Great Tao - as it's sometimes called - is the all-encompasing _____ . Laozi spoke about this Tao more than any other body of work I've found. The other meaning for the t-word is: way, method, nature as applied to something specific. For example, the tao of water (the way of water), or the tao of brick-laying (the method of brick-laying), or the tao of mice (the nature of mice). This tao is also used to mean: path - which is not unlike the other meanings. I'm sure all this is a known given for you (how could it not be?) so when you suggest that Chuang's 'tao' is different than Lao's 'tao' - my first look is to see if you are comparing apples to apples, or apples to pears. (-: Please excuse what I'm about to do to your post. I'm going to colour the 'Great Tao' in blue, and the other meaning of tao in red) **Reply continued below**

CD - I dont know if all that is true, but I think it's brilliant and may very well be. It feels right as far as Laozi goes. Well done. Have an apple. (-:

Maybe Sam came to that conclusion because both ZZ's and Confucius' focus is on the actions of humans [Like you said: Can you tell that in Zhuang Tze's inner chapters has nothing but opposite views against Confucius......???] whereas the focus of LZ is more on the interactions between humans & tao. In other words, even though coming from opposite directions - their interpretations and methods of approach might be more similar to each other - than either are to LZ. Or it might be another reason and I look forward to hearing Sam elaborate. (-: Never mind me, I'm just butting in while waiting for the book.

Sam, yes! Especially as at that time, if memory serves, The Laozi was already being 're-interpreted'...oh hell. I gotta wait for that reference book. Hope nobody will mind later additions to this thread, if it's cooled off by then. I think there's quite a bit in it that supports your premise. warm regards

This all reminds me of the joke about the guy who went before a Judge to get his name, Joe Dickhead, legally changed. The Judge stated: "Yes, I can see where that has given you difficulties. What would you like your new name to be?" The guy replied, "Steve Dickhead. I've always hated the name "Joe". *** You guys are a hoot & a half. 'Specially you, Sinfest. (-: warm regards