rene

CD - why did you change the character?? To better fit your own idea?? The original DDJ uses 無知 why did you change 知 it to 智 ?? You might not agree with Wang's idea regarding Wu-wisdom (無知) , or that 知=wisdom and 智=knowledge, and that's fine, but if you cannot participate in this discussion with integrity, then continuing has no value. Please explain why you altered the original DDJ. Thanks.

Part of SereneBlue's signature reads: 2. "Things first began to jell in my understanding, though, with a remark by Joseph Goldstein, a teacher of insight meditation, at Bodh Gaya. It's simple mathematics, he said: "All meditation systems either aim for One or Zero - union with God or emptiness. The path to the One is through concentration on Him, to the Zero is insight into the voidness of one's mind." - Daniel Goleman, The Meditative Mind *** A recent conversation inside this thread: http://thetaobums.co...mes-of-the-ddj/ flowinghands: The 'self' is the most important theme of the DDJ, it is what limits us in our understanding of the world around us and a huge obstacle to the awakening of realization. Li Erh talks about the self very often and it is referred to multiple times by default. It is the underlying understanding that runs all the way through and it has nothing to do with Buddhism, it has everything to do with realization based on a shamanistic culture of understanding of the world around us. Connecting. rene: Perhaps your read of The Laozi finds the 'self' to be a 'huge obstacle to the awakening of realization'; my take is one of suggested integration, a more natural connection without exclusion. dawei: I don't think you two are talking exactly the same thing so it does appear as a difference. But if one talks about an 'awakening of realization', it would mean (to me) that the natural connection without exclusion is simply not what they are aware of or have come to be aware of. Clearly, daoist had different thoughts than the confucians or legalists but they all would probably admit to a natural connection without exclusion since that was fundamental to the world view of all the philosophies. But if a person's awareness is purely a social context or a political context then I think it not really yet looking to the source in the way Lao Zi does. JMO. *** Is it really as Goldstein suggests? Either the Full (One) or the Empty (Zero)?? I've long enjoyed tangling with those who stand on one at the exclusion of the other... The Empty-Zero has a surface benefit of (perhaps) overcoming dualities... while the Full-One has a surface benefit of (perhaps) mitigating dualities... but isn't the pitting of one way around the barn against the other way the ultimate 'duality' itself? My idea is that any suggestions to beginning seekers, all seekers, regardless of tradition or path, should be those that encourage a blended perspective. Simultaneous arising of mystery and manifest; the space and the vessel; both Zero and One. Unboundaried. All ideas welcome. warm regards . edited to credit SB's sig quote

Could be, sure. (-: To me, 'functional' is a function of change; the usability of (whatever) from one moment to the next. Ohhh I dont see that as a 'mistake', rather the natural tendancy to resist making things more complicated than they are, which, as Marblehead pointed out, 'dont work in Taoism' (or any other -ism) that creates and celebrates colorful complex explanations for what might be simplicity itself. warm regards

LOL MH what if it's even worse! Maybe it's - This That Both this and that Neither this nor that - all at the same time! warm regards

Hey thanks, FH! For me, Tao is right..... so... {nothing} > Tao > *bang!* > (non-dif + potential) > (polarity + non-dif + potential) > (10,000 things + polarity + non-dif + potential) > ... kewl. Since the 'original vibration' is still in all things, I can see how one might feel the 'female' aspect arose farther upstream indeed!

CD, hi, thanks for your detailed post. I think the differences are ones of semantics (which is an odd thing given it's characters and not words, lol) based on the differences each perspective brings to the interpretations. If I may ask, regarding: "Yes, I have no problem with "知 and 智 are often used interchangeably in many ancient Chinese classics." The meaning for both characters can be easily determined within the classic context..." In the chapters you looked at, was there a consistancy (not asking about accuracy or validity, just consistancy) in the context for 知 and 智 ? What I'm asking is, where 知 occured, was the context regarding 'wisdom' - and where 智 occured, was the context regarding knowledge? Thanks!

- Actually, my question was upstream a few levels. IYO - does "tao" include non-differentiation and potential? Or to you is the stream more like: Tao > *bang!* > (non-dif + potential) > (polarity + non-dif + potential) > (10,000 things + polarity + non-dif + potential) etc... well okay that was really lame so never mind (unless you can see what I'm asking).

samwardell, hi Regarding: It might be worth noting, though I am light-years less versed in these things than you, that the contents of The Laozi is a very small part of Religious Taoism and their Shen Tao. The 'return' aspect in Li Ehr's words is more speaking to the reverting nature of Tao itself, rather than one's 'return' to it. Energetic, Alchemical and Religious Taoists would disagree with me; finding in the text what they seek. To me, the essense of 'adaptive skillfulness and the experience of flowing with the ever changing reality' is palpable in The Laozi; thus it's singular appeal, for mine is the path of Wu Dao (無道) the path of no fixed path. Also, in my totally unqualified opinion, this: - is bang on and supports your idea that Chuang-tzu's mysticism leaves even Taoist mysticism behind, which seems to rely heavily on Chi interaction. Wonderful post, Sam, and that video is superb; not often does one get to see self-aligning perfection. Thanks for sharing it, and your ideas. I hope you don't mind my comments amongst the well deserved applause. (-: warm regards

Hi, just to be clear, the 'positive' part of this idea isn't pointing at a "good, virtuous, positive, uplifting, etc" meaning ... but at the wuwei outcomes which seem to benefit more often than not... i.e., outcomes that come naturally from the wu-wisdom interactions of the wu-state. Your turn. (-: I'll bbl later tonight.

No worries, Marblehead.

sam - thanks for posting the Yukawa article; most enjoyable read! Especially this: ... One wants to get at the the most basic form of matter, but it is awkward if there prove to be more than thirty different forms of it; it is more likely that the most basic thing of all has no fixed form and corresponds to none of the elementary particles we know at present. It may be something that has the possibility of of differentiation into all kinds of particles but has not yet done so in fact. ... - which seems to point at pre-manifest Tao..lol warm regards

Brilliant. IMO. (-: and even though not asked, here's my answers: a-) nothing. b-) i have enough already. c-) see what life brings next! How about you? You have your answers yet?

Hi CD, I'm glad you decided to give it another go. (-: "rene.... I am going to tell like it is. What threw me off was this. The Tao Te Ching was written based on the philosophy of Wu Wei(無為). " You are right and now take it one step further. The Tao The Ching was written based on the philosophy of the state of Wu as described in Ch1, one of harmonious interaction. Wu Wei(無為) is one manifestation of this over-arching concept. Wang feels, and I agree, that this dynamic, unboundaried interaction with the Wu state, is not limited to only 無為. "In a way, I agree that Wu Wei(無為), Wu Zhi(無知) and Wu Yue( 無欲) can be considered as a state of Wu.From the OP, I don't see how Wu Zhi(無知) was defined here. I know Wu Wei(無為) and Wu Yue( 無欲) can be considered to be the state of Wu for Tao, not in a sense of invisible, but just being its natural self. However, Wu Zhi(無知) is not a state of Wu nor the positive nature of Tao but only for the people as suggested by LaoTze. Before, I go any further. rene, Did Dr. Wang or you define what is the meaning of Wu-wisdom....??? I need to know his or your definition of Wu-wisdom before I continue. Thanks." Just as Wu-wei (無為) should not be interpreted as “without action”, Wu-zhi (無知) should not be interpreted as “ignorant”. Wu-wei was literally translated by Wang as Wu-action, or as action according to the Wu state, Wu-zhi (無知) was translated as Wu-wisdom, or as wisdom according to the Wu state. Here are a few more excerpts from the text you might find interesting:

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samwardell, hi, thanks for joining in (-: You may be right that Goleman missed that aspect, or it might be it was included elsewhere in his thoughts... it's just such a short quote, hard to tell. I like MacIntyre's ideas and distinction. It might be, ironically, that performance for performance sake (the inner) is what most facilitates reaching the goal! This somewhat parallels my take that expressing the thought that 'tao' is something separate that needs to be outer-chased only reinforces a wrong idea, imo, not unlike like those chinese-finger-puzzle toys where you stick your finger in each end of a tube and the harder you try to pull your fingers out the tighter the grasp becomes! The more you chase the more you fail, lol! All of this might relate to the 'function' you were referring to in your 'empty/full' thread. You stated: Did you sort all that yet? Do you see a connection between the 'function' and these ideas? warm regards

Riyue, thanks, yes, that is a better word i think. warm regards edit to ask: Is then Tao both pre-manifest and potential-containing? In a 'polar' sort of way?

Stosh, you're a sweetie for trying to mitigate, thanks! I have no idea what Taoist traditions say about being ticked off cause I'm not Taoist, lol. For me, ticked off goes away faster than it comes; and I'm already long past whatever it was. I dont 'store-up' my opinions about others; everyone starts with a perpetual clean slate. ChuangTzu describes it pretty well, imo, in his "Each moment a springtime." Good thing, too, cause if I had to wait three days - I'd probably forget what the hell I was talking about or if I even still held the same idea! warm regards

Wouldn't the "Tao" be both non-dual and dual? 'Non-dual' in that it is pre-manifest, no separation, no male/female; and 'dual' in that the potential for the arising is also present in the non-dual.

I agree with complete certainty. (-: warmest regards

Ohhh where the comma (and other punctuation) is can very much matter in some cases! For example: I'm sorry, I love you. I'm sorry I love you. I'm sorry I love. You? Another example, is in a recent post of dawei's that I mis-interpreted (apologies, d. ) He wrote: "...Just be real and be honest and be yourself... Nobody wants anything more from you... " which, given their exchange at the time, I took to mean he was saying nobody wanted CD to post anymore - and I now realize he probably meant 'nobody wants anything more than CD to be honest and be himself.' So yes, commas and other punctuation can be critical to convey meanings. But are word choices and punctuation the only things that convey? Not in my opinion. Opinion: a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. (dictionary dot com) Complete certainty ?? LOL If that's the case, almost every word out of my mouth is an opinion as the only thing I'm completely certain about is... hmmm... Have to get back to you on that. (-: warm regards, all

:flies in quietly: Please excuse this off-topic post; I just want to express a few things. First, thanks to everyone for their words - affording those of us who have no exposure to this arena to enjoy a glimpse inside your ideas. Second, SereneBlue's post in this thread reflects clarity. And lastly, I find it beyond hilarious that the person seeking objective evidence says he hooks a ground-wire below his balls while meditating. I mean, really? And you're questioning this stuff ?? LOL okay. (-: Anyway - no judgements made anywhere; to each their own Way. Thanks again, all, for being so open - and sorry for the interruption. :flies out quietly:

dawei, hi I think you're right that Goldstein's comments speak primarily to the path rather than any sought outcome; after all, as said so often, "It's the journey and not the destination." I wonder, though, what the appeal of any path would be that does not hold out the carrot of the end result as impetus - along with the too often taught 'our path is the only path to _____' - especially as the 'end result' includes reintegration... so yes, that can very much make a difference, imo. I've seen it, yes. You frequently blend seemingly opposing ideas and it's nice to have company here sometimes, lol. I'll have to yield to you and others to divide things up into different levels (physical, meta-physical, etc..) as it's all just kind of blended together for me. I enjoy reading all the different threads here in TTB, so many different ways and ideas! and I thank you for your words. (-: warm regards

dawei, back off. First, what CD and a few others know and you may not, is I worked intensely with Dr. Wang throughout the creation of the manuscript; if you read the first half of the work (the second half is Wang's DDJ translation, which I stayed away from) what you'll find is his ideas expressed in my voice. (At that point in time his English grammer was pretty rough. It's much better now.) I cant speak for "Wang" but if it's his ideas you have a question about, I'm pretty much ramped up. Second, re "Nobody wants anything more from you" ? Speak for yourself.

CD, hi, in the OP I jumped a few chapters in Wang's book to get right to it; you are right that the State of Wu is first described in DDJ Chapter One (and Two) and maybe I should have started there, as does Wang. Sorry for any confusion. No reason to go over each line now.. it's the (what you call 'invisible) aspect presented in DDJ1 that appears at times in the remaining 80. Of course, not every occurance of Wu reflects this aspect; oftentimes無 is just the standard negation. It's those other times, though, that makes one go 'ahhhh...' lol warm regards

dawei - maybe you two can poke at each other elsewhere. Thanks!