rene

Your statements that everyone who is untentionally in error is and always will be a liar - is akin to saying all maps are lies because they are maps instead of the territory itself. Starting from that premise does little to build a relationship conducive for the exchange of heart-dialogue. Did you take slight offence at my STFU (Shut The Fuck Up)? Apparantly you felt a need to ameliorate the abbreviation (in very clever ways, too!) Why try and soften STFU yet care so little about calling people liars? Though it is encouraging you now want to : " get over the notion evidently we can do quite a bit using words ..." , it might be that as you've little grasp of this most basic kindness towards others there may be little desire to interact. Best of luck on your path. (-: Peace out.

dawei, hi, nice (-: and - it might be the imbalanced 'net' is what provides the impetus, the momentum, of the cycle. Your posts are most enjoyable; a treat to see the occasional moon amongst all these fingers.

I get your meaning, but I disagree. Your posts in other threads clearly indicate you feel Tao = God. My idea of Tao is not that boundaried. To me, Tao is more than just what one might prefer; it is everything (Tao is it.) But, "unboundaried" is a two way street, yes? If Tao is in the shit (ZZ) then shit is in the Tao. Any problem one might have with that, imo, belongs to the problem-holder rather than the nature of Tao. warm regards

Stosh, hi "Yep thats what I meant , I thought it obvious but sorry If It looked like accusation..." Didn't think it was accusation but yeah so obvious (re tao not lying etc) thought you musta meant something else?? lol I always just ask to clarify, no worries. (-: It's interesting reading the different ideas about Tao... and the different human characteristics assigned to it. Some are surprising, others - not so much. warmest regards

Well, et, you might just have to get over it. Under your own definition, everything you say is a lie because everything everybody says is a lie. Why? Because, under your definition, words themselves are lies and only lies. Peanut-butter. There's a nice word (and something I had for breakfast yummm) When I say the word 'peanut-butter' that's a lie because that word represents my subjective collection of ideas, thoughts, taste, etc of what peanutbutter is - rather than what peanutbutter be. When you say peanutbutter - it's your subjective collection of ideas, thoughts, taste, etc of what you think peanutbutter is - rather than what peanutbutter be. Every word that might be said, typed, read - by you or anyone else - only expresses what one thinks the word represents rather than what the thing represented by the word actually be. So - all words are lies - because they're only subjective interpretations and representations of what something is (or isnt) rather than what that thing "be". So, I guess if you prefer only "true" statements, and dont want to be a "liar", all you can do is quit using words and STFU. warm regards

Apech, I just finished watching this. Incredible. Do you know if there have been any applications or developments arising from this since 2006? I've not yet searched but will be; please shout out or PM if you run across something. Major implications, imo, and the possibilities are astonishing. Wow. Thanks for sharing. !!!

dawei, agree Marblehead, why would you need desires to be at an absolute minimum? Oh wait...for you it's either wu or yo - so, yes, I can see where you'd think yo needed to be minimized as much as possible. Have fun with that!. Oh wait.. Never mind. (-: warm regards

dawei, hi, agree. His ideas seem to resonate on a level other than one exclusively "knowledge" based. Also, regarding your - "From a practical point of view, we tend to prefer what our senses tell us. That may be why Wu Wei (Wu-action, Wu-state) is not internally completely; the senses prevent it on some level." For me, it's more that both are in play: my natural preference for peace, is always informed by the understanding that every action is one of creation and destruction, etc. Glad you joined in. (-: warm regards

Lie Which part?

Taomeow, thanks for elaborating on your perspective of Tao; mine is a bit different, but I like that we each have our own way. (-: warm regards

Taomeow, hi (-: Could you please list some, or even one, of the things tao doesn't do? Thanks!

Tao... particle? wave? both at the same time? Tao arises as mystery? manifest? both at the same time? Tao manifests as energy? matter? both at the same time? Tao is always eternal? always changing? both at the same time? It might be that Tao is just an idea. (-: Fun stuff to ponder! Nice topic RBSA, and welcome to TaoBums.

CD, I agree with those parts of your post I quoted above. IMO, Laozi's use of Wu and You in Chapter One were a hint, a clue, as to what was to follow in the remaining chapters, or as you put it, "The way LoaTze uses "wu" was in many clever ways". Rather than start yet another thread, if you want to explore "what each Wu means in different context", feel free to use the States of Tao thread...as that would be the natural next step for the idea. (-: warm regards

"What he was saying, in the effect, is the "act of none"." No, CD, that's not what he is saying at all. He is using "Wu" in a totally different manner. He is using "wu" as one of the states of Tao, which you yourself agreed to as occuring in DDJ Ch1. The same word/character can have different meanings. For example, like you said, in a different thread, "The physical emptiness is different from the mental emptiness of Buddhism. The emptiness in the cup is not the same emptiness as in the heart of a Buddhist." Just as "emptiness" has different meanings, Wang's idea regarding Wu also takes a meaning different than "none". *** From this thread: http://thetaobums.co...-states-of-tao/ Can we really describe the Wu state? Laotzu did it in many of his Chapters. The Wu state is an unconscious state of man with respect to his interactions with heaven, so our conscious language may not be able to link to the unconsciousness effectively. Wu is the ultimate return or concealment of Tao. Wu is not a state of nothingness, but is a state of completeness and harmony. In Tao philosophy, the Wu state is never completely hidden, since there is always a You state encoded inside it. Wu is a positive state of Tao. This positive nature of Wu must be properly preserved in our interpretation of Tao. For example, Laotzu often used Wu-wei 無為, Wu-Yue 無欲, and Wu-zhi 無知 as the main attributes of the Wu state. These concepts are of great importance in Tao philosophy. Unfortunately, these terms have been commonly interpreted as without action, without desire, and without wisdom. Such negative interpretations have contributed to gross misunderstandings of Wu, and, more importantly, of Tao. *** You might disagree with his idea, and that's fine, but it would be rather disingenuous on your part to try and shoehorn his ideas into your framework to find them lacking. warm regards

Or...you could give up learning and put an end to your troubles! *** What could I show you that you have not already seen? What could I tell you that you have not already heard? What could you learn that you do not already understand? There is no need to be kind, just be yourself. Kindness comes naturally. There is no need to be just. As a whole human, you are already just. Being who you are in your heart, brings everything. You already know these things. They are naturally known because they are natural. What more could I say that would be of any use? *** warm regards

Are you only a materialist? Is there no wu in your yo ?

et-thoughts, hello Yes, and another possibility is that when the underlying is already known, that meaning comes through the word(s), regardless of the word(s) chosen to convey. Although your ideas and intentions are good, as long as the thought is to "transcend the duality" rather than to incorporate "separate dualistic conception" into one's be-ing, what you wish for could never occur. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and if by "integrated singularity" you mean the integration of the "dual" and the "non-dual" into the unboundaried and simultaneous occurance of both, then we might be on the same page. (-: warm regards

Only if you still live in 'either/or' land. (-:

Two traveling monks reached a river where they met a young woman. Wary of the current, she asked if they could carry her across. One of the monks hesitated, but the other quickly picked her up onto his shoulders, transported her across the water, and put her down on the other bank. She thanked him and departed. As the monks continued on their way, the one was brooding and preoccupied. Unable to hold his silence, he spoke out. "Brother, our spiritual training teaches us to avoid any contact with women, but you picked that one up on your shoulders and carried her!" "Brother," the second monk replied, "I set her down on the other side, while you are still carrying her." http://goto.bilkent.edu.tr/gunes/ZEN/zenstories1.htm

Sometimes when I'm drunk, I sit under the stars and think that I'm thinking.

greetings, forestwolf, nice to see you here.

To find the "Preview post" option - click on the "More Reply Options" button just to the right of the "Post" button below the box where you type your brilliant responses. You wont lose what you've typed - it will just change to like the old software... with the Preview next to the Post button. That tip is mostly for Marblehead... who still hasn't figured out how to edit a post. (-:

I like inside, soft bed, all windows wide open, no electronics anywhere; just nature's night noises. I do keep the windows closed at night, though, when the bears are moving through.

One ... day ... at ... a ... time I resist the urge to shout <-My side. That's your side.->