rene

GOOWDAY, hi, thanks for explaining further. Your reasoning makes sense to me, especially: "Laozi hided some unknow wisdoms in normal opinions like sage hided the jude with drabness, Maybe those unknow wisdoms just unutterable. When people reads the TTC,Those wisdoms will create some new ideas like seeds can grows up in different areas ...........Few people got those new ideas..." ...which actually parallels Marblehead's post: "... he is saying that people cannot "know" Tao but few people understood what he was saying." It might not be "utterable" or "known", but ohhh mama, Tao truly rocks and to me it's as simple and natural as breathing. (-: warm regards

Marblehead, hi I know this is a bit off-topic but just wanted to applaud this: This, imo, reflects the blended perspective - that which is beyond "either/or" thinking. It's not that we have to choose between the "either/or" of caring or not caring; it's both at the same time. Yes, straw dogs, AND yes, we can prefer kindness over cruelty. warm regards

(-: Sixty-six Why is the sea king of a hundred streams? Because it lies below them. Therefore it is the king of a hundred streams. If the sage would guide the people, he must serve with humility. If he would lead them, he must follow behind. In this way when the sage rules, the people will not feel oppressed; When he stands before them, they will not be harmed. The whole world will support him and will not tire of him. Because he does not compete, He does not meet competition.

GOOWDAY, hi, thanks for joining in! I understand the general difference, but can you speak more to the subtle nuance as it affects ch 70? warm regards p.s.. I really liked your 'Hit the drums'. Strong feelings come.

Hi ChiDragon, here is part of what W.Wang has re zhi1 and zhi4 **** The 知 and 智 are often used interchangeably in many ancient Chinese classics and their distinctions are often made by the interpreters. Whenever their distinction is observed, 知 is used as wisdom. Logographically, it is interesting to note that 智 is written as “wisdom 知 that lasts over a day 日only. ” Our interpretation of Wu-wisdom comes out of our analysis of the two words, ZHI 知 and zhi 智, used in the Tao Te Ching texts. For convenience, we use capitalized ZHI as wisdom and lower case zhi as knowledge in the following discussion. These two words are used inter-changeably in many ancient Chinese literature. Laotzu used these words with clear distinction and with consistency in the Tao Te Ching. He used ZHI 知 as wisdom as associated with the Wu state - and zhi 智 as wisdom associated with the changing world, or the Yo state. So 智 represents temporary wisdom, which we identify as knowledge. Laotzu identifies ZHI (wisdom) with the Wu state and zhi (knowledge) with the Yo state. What is the distinction between ZHI and zhi? Simply put, Laotzu said that the leader should have wisdom of Wu so he can lead. (ttc ch 65&75). People at least should have enough wisdom of Yo, the knowledge, to be guided to follow Tao. Throughout the Tao Te Ching, we have a consistent interpretation of wisdom of Wu and knowledge of Yo. This interpretation is also consistent with Hsuntzu, who said that, “Knowing within oneself is called wisdom. Knowing corresponding to external things is called knowledge.” Lietzu made the same distinction by saying: “Knowledge cannot be wisdom.” Wentzu asked, “Seeking the true wisdom, can we attain Wu-wisdom? This is the true wisdom.” Laotzu emphasized that wisdom at the Wu level is the ultimate wisdom that a leader should have in order to manage the people effectively. He also emphasized the importance of knowledge, as the wisdom of the Yo state. ..... **** Interesting stuff (-:

allan, hello Thanks for joining in! You are right that intellect and words alone are not sufficient. Sans words, however, and the ability to understand them, we would not have the discussions to enjoy, or new ideas to explore... including ideas presented by you in your 156+ posts in TaoBums! One of the beauties of The Laozi, imo, is the balance shown in its expressions regarding the nature of change; and I'm glad to learn that you are not clinging to your own theories, and are remaining open for surprises to sneak in past the gates. (-: warm regards

Unboundaried is what I live and breathe; talking about it is a rare delight, and I thank you for your words. (-: warm regards

Because of the unboundaried nature of Tao, and the unboundaried natures of Wu and Yo, within each Yo-state Wu is also present. This is also reflected in Yin/Yang theory, i.e., within the fullest yang resides the seed of yin. So too with Wu and Yo. What this means is: regardless of what "Yo-state" you happen to find yourself in - Wu is also right there for transmutation. This palpable aspect is sometimes described as 'the reverting nature of Tao'. Near the end of TTC Ch23 (F/E) - When you are at one with loss, The loss is experienced willingly. - is a reflection of this aspect, imo. The act of our minds 'letting go' of a situation seems to remove the 'yo-pressures' and a more natural wu-result seems to flow on it's own. Some systems describe attaining the Wu-state like climbing a ladder, with the prize at the top. My perspective is: Climb if you wish, especially if you enjoy the climb, (-:, but Wu, and Tao, is right there on every rung. warm regards

. "Sikhs honor the intention of the creator by keeping their hair unshorn and unaltered in its natural state." Link

Oh mYTHmAKER, that was really nice (-: and to me your words describe the unchanging aspect of dao.

What exactly IS the purpose of this thread, CD?

As you wish. (-: *** gatito - glad you're enjoying it! Thanks for the post; all are welcome to join in. warm regards

ChiDragon, hi. Agree re applications, etc. Also - even though there may be disagreement between your use of "Wu" and Wang's use of "Wu" - please believe that what you are pointing at in the term "wu-wei" is exactly the same thing that Wang points at in the term "Wu-action": I sometimes describe this as "motion sans extraneous intent" - avoiding when possible the 'natural/unnatural' semantic dance. By 'extraneous intent' I mean intentions created by the mind, rather than...say..an instinctual jump out of the way to stay alive. MH - did the link give you enough re Yo? Or do you want more. (-: warm regards

In your case, that might be accurate, indeed. 70 My Teachings are Easy 吾言甚易知 1 吾言甚易知也， 甚易行也。 My teaching is very easy to understand, and very easy to practice. 2 而人 莫之能知也， 莫之能行也。 But people cannot understand it and cannot practice it. 3 言有宗， 事有君。 All teachings have their principles. All efforts have their guiding rules. 4 夫唯無知也， 是以不我知。 Unless with Wu-wisdom, there is no way to understand my principles. 5 知我者希， 則我貴矣。 Few have understood my principles. Even fewer have followed my principles. 6 是以聖人 This is like a Sage 7 被褐而褱玉。 wearing drabness and hiding jades inside.

LOL just use Wu-wisdom and you'll be fine. Hey, CD, when you use the term 'grok it's quale' - that's what 'wu-wisdom' is pointing at. Cool, eh?

Interesting link, SifuReL. Here's something that might interest you. Cheers!

You have more work to do and it seems I have less! I found something easier to read than long cut & paste posts: Excerpts The excerpts are clear and concise, yet are only a reflection of the depth of detail in the book. But they're enough to start with, and use for quoting in here, if anyone is interested in exploring the ideas further in the thread. If not, that's okay too. (-: warm regards . . [p.s. to Marblehead: it seems Wang has finally landed on a Romanization for Yu 有. [You = Yo = Yu]

ChiDragon, hi I'm glad you agree that a new thread for just WuWei is better, so neither thread is distracted, and I leave you and others to it. (-: Yes, the Wu-state is first presented in Chapter 1 of the TTC - and for a few folks, Ch 1 says it all and the remaining 80 chapters are delightful explanatory notes. LOL warmest regards

Marblehead, hi Sure, I'll add material about the You-state; especially it's interaction with the Wu-state - which reflects the reverting nature of Tao. (-: Maybe it would be better to not turn this thread into another limited "wu wei" focused thread, as there are already two going on now - and instead we can use this thread to explore the expanse of the ideas presented. Whatcha think?

Perhaps it will manifest in a new thread. (-:

Yes and no. Yes, in that Laozi uses a term in a special way; no, in that Wu Wei needn't be interpreted as a whole. Well, it could, but there's an easier way. That easier way would be to re-orient our thinking as to Laozi's special and consistent throughout the TaoTeChing use of "Wu". This is the thrust of Dr. Wang's work (thanks MH for starting the thread, btw) and, once understood, shines clear light on many of the seeming paradoxes in the TTC. Marblehead - if you'd like, I'll hang around in this discussion to assist. If I may suggest - start with Wang's "Wu" (which is also reflected in TaoMeow's post in the other thread about it not being a 'left-brain thingy' (paraphrased ) Once "Wu" the way Laozi is using it is understood - then the concepts of WuWei, and WuZhi, and WuYue - become amazingly simple. warm regards

Maybe spirit is a de container; each giving shape to the other.

I call it Dao. warm regards Edit: I'm reading this thread with interest, to learn about the various buddhist uses of the term 'Emptiness'. In conversations I've had over the years, there always seemed to be different ideas being pointed to with the word... so when I saw the topic heading and read the OP, well, here I am. Hope you dont mind a non-buddhist guest sitting quietly over here in the corner. (-:

same same p.s. anamatva - that was brilliant! Now please go do The Laozi.

sigh... warm regards