rene

So, you are saying that every character translates to a word? If so, there would only be, or need be, one translation of the TTC, ZZ, etc, and the debates would then be about what the translation meant. The debate over what a word/character means can come only after an agreement as to what the word/character is. Oui? warm regards

Simple?? Sigh... If it were only so. p.s... I'm talking about the efforts required to translate from chinese characters to an alphabatic language. And you are right regarding simplicity; the simplest path is from the moon straight to the heart. No characters words required! warm regards

Sigh... If it were only so. warm regards

Does the world-changing taoism you propose include passive-aggressive belittling followed by a heart?

Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it? I do not believe it can be done. The universe is sacred. You cannot improve it. If you try to change it, you will ruin it. If you try to hold it, you will lose it.

maybe its tao listening to itself.

dawei, I used to think Dao was the how. Now I think maybe Dao is the why. warm regards

"Take me now, before I change my mind." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b535B6uIFf8&feature=related (((3bob)))

Marblehead, All that you say is true. I understand, and agree with, your desire to keep this sub-forum substantially in the realm and under the purview of Philosophical Taoism. The problem you will have, here in TB, is that you cannot. Recall when I ran Laoist Temple I did not even let ChuangTzu in! One reason was because of my personal concepts - but the larger reason was because of the tendancy for downstream doctrines to clawback and "find" Religious, Alchemist, and even Buddhist "proof" in the TTC - and it's all the more easy to do this in The Chuang Tzu because of it's more esoteric nature. So I guess it's a matter of what the Chuang Tzu sub-forum is all about: if it's a matter of "What is ZZ saying here" or if it's a matter of "What is ZZ saying here that falls within the parameters of Marblehead's scope and prefered simplicity". I know that everyone, myself included, appreciates the energy and effort you make in starting the chapters and sections. Maybe rather that trying to shephard the whole dialogue, you could launch it... and then sit back to see what others come up with in their interactions? Maybe like cooking a small fish? :shrug: Unless this is in fact a teaching section for you that requires your responses as to if someone else "gets it" or not? If that's the case, I misunderstood the purpose of the Chuang-Tzu subform and please disregard all of the above. (-: warm regards

It might be helpful to recall that every worded-path is but the fingers pointing to the moon. What use is there to force a Buddhist glove on Laozi's hand? Or a Christian mitten onto a Hindu's hand? It's natural that we would recognize reflections of the way of Dao in others' traditions, concepts and words as this moon is common to all. But that does not mean my finger is identical to yours or that my glove needs to fit your hand. For me, Laozi's unadorned and unencumbered words reflect Dao in the simplest and most natural manner. For me, even Zhuangzi complicates unnecessarily. Because the TaoTeChing is like a foundational seed, other traditions have reached back to pull LZ into their concepts saying "See? my ________ is right there in Laozi's words!!" when it is actually the moon they are sensing, not LZ's gnarled joints.

Thanks, all, for the kind wishes and warm thoughts. (-:

And my preference would be that only the writings of Lao Tzu get to use the overarching label "Taoism" exclusively! But... such is not to be. So, for me, Laoist it is. And maybe for you Lao-Zhuangist it is. If you want references, google 'lao-zhuang daoism'. There's a whole bunch of folks just like you. warm regards

What use in receiving 'All beneath Heaven'? He who knows he has enough is already rich. *** Hey - I'm cleanin out closets. Anybody need more stuff??

manitou, hi, wonderful post. One of the easiest tells (for me) as to where someone might be on their own path is if they recognize, within yet others' words, of what is being pointed at rather than getting hung up on terms that are specific to one tradition. It might be that those who follow the 'mongrel route' have more ease in recognizing that which underlays all in full support - because without a nomenclature of our own, listening with the heart (intaking through the nei xin), becomes second nature instead of the words->ears->mind path. Once the moon is found, all pointing fingers are easily understood; the common aspect easily seen in each path. (-: warm regards

deci belle, your posts are a delight to read and reflect the clarity of perception. Well met. (-: warm regards

Aaron, thank you and Apech especially for getting us launched in a pretty smooth manner; and Marblehead for later taking the helm. *** To everyone, There is something personal I would like to tell you. My beloved husband died on May 5th. There were times, between then and now, that I would come here to read and I found delight and brief moments of happy in reading your posts. The energy you all put into your words, your debates, your heart - touched me in ways you could not have known. Thank you. Yesterday was my first day back after two months totally off-line, and I look forward to reading the last 30 chapters you all explored. I've no plan to revive any of the threads - unless of course ChiDragon or lienshan (or Marblehead!) has said something so outlandish it can't be ignored. IMO - the true test of any system of ideas, or beliefs, or faiths, is whether or not it will hold up when tested in the extreme. For me, the concepts found in the TTC held up, and held me up, as I crawled my way back. My wish for each of you is that you find what works for you, and enjoy the journey of discovering what that is. warmest regards

And at the least, it's just an idea. ~~~ Lies and truths - fading away, waiting to die The dream you thought was truth and the fart that made you cry Edit: p.s. Sinfest.. _/\_ re Bushido quote (-:

Dreams and farts.

There it is.

No, sorry, I didn't know you already knew that. Just wanted to let you know I'd be mostly sitting back in the discussions. I edited out my post in Ch 2 so as to not disrupt the harmony of your explorations. Have fun! Peace out. (-:

Marblehead, congrats and well-met on getting the ZhuangZi section going. Generally speaking I'm not a big fan (because of the unnecessary complicating and twisting of simple LZ themes) but I can appreciate and enjoy that others find ZZ to be their cup of tea. (-: warm regards

I've been trying for a long time now to remember/re-find a quote that really grabbed me when I read it... I think it was in someone's sig line. It goes something like - He who dreams of the feast awakes and longs for the hunt... or maybe it was dreams of the hunt wakes longing for the feast. Anyone? thanks

10,000 thanks, dear friend, and I guess this was the place to ask after all. (-:

Really?? Wow. Do you recall which chapter?