rene
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Everything posted by rene
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Below are the words of dawei, pulled from several posts in TTC Ch 51 thread: *** I see Dao as the law which the arising follows; the arising are as such because they undergo their own "dao'ing". This ability I see as the power or efficacy or virtuosity (De) of Dao. I don't see De as 'virtue' as it becomes too associated with ethical Confucian. Lao Zi "De" is not Confucian "De". Whereas Confucius takes a high [ethical] road (wei, action, as practice makes perfect and becomes useful), Lao Zi takes the low [mystical] road (wu wei as no thought-provoked action makes emptiness and becomes useful) Confucius believed in Dao and De; His understand of the Way and Ethic was that of common folks raising to Jun Zi; the most excellent gentleman; a man of exuding ethics! which others would follow as his example. This is the high road. Lao Zi believed in Dao and De; His understanding of the Way and Power was without regard to anyone needing to follow him; it was in regard to it's source alone (Dao and De). This is the ultimate principle of "returning to the source". As the Sage arises and returns [like natural life of plants or trees], so others see the Sage exemplifies natural life. De is not affecting only people (Confucian) but all life (Lao Zi). In this way, life possesses De in order to naturally return to Dao. This is life and death. *** Thanks, dawei, for your words. All are welcome to join in.
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penfold, It might be that the word "static" here doesn't quite fit and your division as you've guessed is a false one. The dynamic of natural flow also has within it the constant aspect of tao: that quiet and unchanging eternal that is unboundaried in all things. It's not the 'inner nature' that is the same, it's what our inner nature taps into that is the same; the same eternal that is present in every moment and available to all. warm greetings
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Motes of nothingness, soft - like dust sans dimension floating in the tao.
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Todd, I agree fully. My nomenclature calls this 'either/or' thinking, i.e., either personal or impersonal. A useful tell, for me, is when the ideas presented understand fully and integrate easily the presence, necessity and joy found in the simultaneous both. warm regards
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Nix da rat, gun, balc & garlic; they're just tools to hep you see Perpetual IMO applied. (-:
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My way is to be certain without clinging to the certainty. In this moment, I know what I know and am certain about it. In the next moment however, everything I was certain about in this moment may be different. So.. I can sit on Marblehead's chair with certainty and if I instead land on my ass on the floor that will be a new certainty, for that moment. We each have our own ways in moving from one moment to the next, yes? I like that each moment is a springtime. (-: (nod to ZZ) Nice topic, Aaron; great posts, all. warm regards
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Yes... and, the more ziran the process the more De arises. Fun stuff to think about (-:
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. I would like to thank Scotty, Sloppy and Stig for making it easier to continue to watch this fun exchange without having to log in to read in The Pit! Generally speaking, this is like watching three little boys rolling in the snow, fighting over whose weenie is bigger who has the best argument. (-: with warmest regards and laughing heart, rene
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Because of the unboundaried nature, even when fully immersed in the state of 'wu'... yo is still present. From what I've seen, even at the core of traditional paths, a final step is to (re)integrate all states; ending the 'either/or' mindset. Boundarilessness means both, same time, all. And yeah, I'm sure. Even you cant escape the nature of Tao. warm regards
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Harmonious Emptiness, hello By 'a bit more' I meant that (to me) Dao is more than just 'principle' and De is more than just 'power'. If you're asking for my idea about Dao? Sorry, my mouth can not make words for it. (nod:ZZ) If you're asking for my idea about De? It's inherent in all life; it's a direct reflection of the efficiency and efficacy that arises in tandem with natural spontaniety. And that is very powerful, indeed. btw, your posts are enjoyable to read. (-: warm regards
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Yes; and those for whom The Laozi is more than sufficient, sometimes call themselves 'Laoist'. (-:
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on the path, hi "Daoism" means to many people more than just following Dao. There are few who can get sufficient, um, information, from the intent underlying the words in The Laozi. I say 'intent' because translations vary according to the objectives and chosen mindsets of the translators. The TTC is a very very small part of the entirety of taoist cannon; and 'taoism' is delightfully resplendent with rules, virtues, laws, etc. For me, they would be unnecessary baggage. I agree with your idea that when we are truly guided by what our heart understands - our responses and choices naturally align in the direction of harmonious flow. (-: warm regards
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dawei, hi Well stated. Interesting idea! To me, self-so-ness reflects De. Well put. For me, its a bit more than 'principle and power', but that is part of it, yes. Thanks for getting things back on track (-: warm regards
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LOL. Still using your lingo, your 'non-Self' - would be the Wu counterpart of your manifest Self. As there is nothing that does not have both aspects, my guess is that includes you. My post was more a blink towards those paths that teach the elimination of half of what is Natural. warm regards
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Non-duality is still only half of the Whole. A fully integrated Self and Not-Self might be more natural. warm regards
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Okay. One at a time. (couldn't resist, heh) And I'll use your lingo. Yes, in the Manifest there are lots of 'either/or'. You can either get your own coffee, or not. But it's never 'either/or' between Mystery and Manifest; they co-exist simultaneously and unboundaried. (How else would the reverting nature of tao occur??) That cup of coffee you may or may not be drinking is a manifest thing and it still has all the aspects of Mystery in it; all of tao can be found within it; the nature of the universe is reflected in the movement and motions of each iota of that swill in that mug. Especially the way you make coffee. Agree. Especially in peoples' search for tao. Dualities are created in an effort to find what isn't lost in the first place. warm regards
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"in general" - suggests a majority; and usually it suggests a large enough of a majority that making a 'generalized' statement becomes acceptable (when identified as such). YMMV. (-:
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Oh, please do not. Bad enough it was changed from The Laozi to Dao De Ching at the same time "De" was given the ethical and moral-Virtue emphasis rather than Laozi's "De" Recall please what this thread is about.
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"All is not one." No. Rather: All is not ONLY one. All is both one and separate at the same time. "Either/or thinking" is very difficult to overcome. Until the understanding and realization comes that dual and non-dual both are present in every moment, unboundaried with each other, the differences between these simultaneous aspects will always feed this particular and perpetual discussion. warm regards
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Just with life. Sometimes uke, sometimes tori. You?
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The ideas expressed by dawei resonate loudly and clearly. Many TTC renditions have a distinct Confucian, Religious Taoist, Buddhist and even Christian flavor to them - and the strongest seasoning is usually found in the way "De" is interpreted, and then used, to promote the agenda of the group that has absorbed the TTC into its doctrines. It would be nice if, in the discussions of the TTC chapters here in the subforum, Laozi's "De", the inherent efficacy, was used as the basis for context in our exchange of ideas.
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No, you did not lose me. Allow me, however, to start a new thread so others may join in this if they wish and so that we dont drag Ch 51 farther off track.
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A new beginning. Lawn chairs circled in the shade, Salmon on the grill.
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Yes, continue, and you may find more agreement than you expect. It would be nice if, in the discussions of the TTC chapters here in the subforum, Laozi's "De" was used as the basis for context.
