rene

LOL I figured not; that's why I asked. Recall how he always asked for input on phrasing and word choices for his 'translation' back when he was writing it? He used many of the suggestions, including several of yours. Quit being so modest.

Paulw - agree and well said. Thanks for sharing your experience. (-: warm regards

Whose?

welcome (-:

Perhaps we can be both carved and uncarved at the same time. Both: perpetually dynamic, reflecting the reverting nature of tao. Neither 'mere'. **** Eric23 - nice. Return to simplicity. The uncarved block is made useful into tools. The sage employs these means. Therefore the enduring master carves, but never hacks. Master carving could still reflect the uncarved aspect; hacking away might diminish it. warm regards

For me, existence is simultaneously earthly and spiritual, rather than either/or. It might be that Laozi is suggesting in the last lines of Ch29 to avoid the extremes of earthly ways, rather than earthly ways in their entirety. Or as majc delightfully said in an earlier discussion - Without the spokes surrounding the empty space, there would be no cart to pull. warm regards

Nurture weeds and blooms, Melting ice drips in the cave, The bear awakens!

Adeha, hi Mea culpa on the 3 at a time suggestion. We're all just feeling our way around here, trying different things and your (and everyones') input is most appreciated. It might be that one at a time works out better, and either way I hope that we do stick to sequential movement through the Chapters. There's no rush to get anywhere specific and it might be that the flow from one to the next adds in a dynamic not previously considered!

Steve, thanks for clarifying (-: I ponder where the line is. The line that sorts out what would qualify for extreme actions and what wouldn't. On one side of the line seems to be Marbleheads whackin the guy for pissing in the stream; on the other might be what will eventually occur with Otis' nephew. Of course, this divider line is something that is not static, and each situation will influence what response still falls within the basket of 'love and compassion'. That said, however, the largest weight influencing any decision might be the mindset of the intervenor. Notice I didn't say 'intent' - for we all IMO just do the best we can with the best of intentions, yes? But if our mindset is one of 'oh I must help because my way is better than his way' well... So, what is one to do? What I've found to be useful is to not cling to any idea about what is 'best', and instead listen to the nei xin; allowing my (dual) preference for harmony and the (non-dual) flow of all actions - arise spontaneously. What do you find works for you, to inform your choices and actions? warm regards p.s. Otis..best of luck re nephew. not easy times.

Derek explained that was what he was doing, yes. We used to have great discussions around this when the TeaHouse first opened: my suggestion was to not take such a long way around the barn; his position was folks couldn't follow that fast. His place, his way. Of course, that was then. It's a much different place there now.

Aaron - of course you are right! Here's your prize! Enjoy.

imho by regularly resting in clarity beyond concepts and being receptive to allowing nonconceptual clarity to penetrate and potentially alter one's entire environment and sense of self. Sans a blended perspective, clarity beyond concepts would preclude preferences viewed as either beneficial or not. Within the blended perspective, wouldn't the question be moot as the natural state was never left? imho same answer as above, as this strengthens our own internal resonance with what is natural, which in turn near-automatically creates the space in our movements to set a beneficial example for others and resolve conflicts creatively as they arise. To me, this isn't about whether choices are contrived or beneficial, or whether 'preferences are natural and thus in accordance with Tao', but rather the entrenched mindset that one has to choose between either 1) having a preference (of any type), or 2) resting in a place of non-conceptual clarity. Sean, you touched on this a bit earlier with your earlier description of ' folds on itself. pops. folds on itself. pops ' My take is the popping and folding occur at the same time... like is pointed to in TTC Ch1: These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery. From the same source, yes, and my sense is also at the same time: unboundaried. Fun stuff to try and write about, and perpetual IMO applied. warm regards

Marblehead - thanks for posting the Chapters! I find no major differences between the renditions, as far as seeming intent of the words, and like Chapters 11 & 12, this is another beautiful example of the lines in Chapter 1 playing out: "Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations. (F/E)" I like that it wraps up nicely with reference to the two unboundaried perspectives, the te of tao, which is indeed hidden, profound, and primal.

Yes, please do point out the specific comments where Sean or Stigweard introduce the idea that people use the concept of "its all Tao" as justification for ones' choices. The first time that thought was introduced was by you in your posts #17 & #19. Now, Sean did go back (sometime after your post #22) and edit his post #20 to address these same ideas that you'd brought into the discussion earlier. Thanks! Apparantly you feel the comments were disparaging? It's no secret that the TeaHouse is designed for entry-level folks; the justification theme you introduced into this thread is a common tool used by Derek and others to begin discussions on these things. What could be wrong with that? Everyone is at their own place on the path, Aaron, but I can see where it would be more useful for me to remember that. If you took offense at my attempt at humor (checking the sign over the door) then I am sorry, none was intended. warm regards edit:typo

For clarity - are you saying that if the act is violent, then an appropriate punishment, even a severe punishment, is a reflection of love and compassion?

LOL still. Born this way and not a freekin thing I can do about it.

You might be bringing that in on your own, Aaron. I dont see those things being suggested by anyone in this thread. For that matter, those beginning level rationals/arguments are usually what you find over in the TH. Check the sign above the door, maybe you thought you were over there.

Sean, hi - hope you dont mind me chopping up your post. (-: a human chooses oolong to sip and excludes the pu-erh. and then also human is not in the slightest way separate from Tao. Yep; both at the same time. there is a deep "connection". connection is too limiting really... and if this mystery moves through us, through this connection, well i'll just say personally, for me it feels like a kind of dance between resting as Tao that truly is beyond preference and absolutely inclusive, and then on the other hand returning as the appearance of a comically flawed and entirely silly human being that will never get it right, ever, period, but also can't get it fundamentally wrong either. I use the term 'unboundaried' for connection, as yes connection is too limiting seems to suggest a delineated path, like a wire, where there really is no separation between the two aspects. Not even a permeable membrane. in this way i see no paradox between expressing myself as a human through my naturally arising preferences while simultaneously retaining a core recognition that Tao does not share my preferences in an absolute sense. I agree. Once one is past 'either/or' mindset, the paradox kinda falls away naturally. fwiw, i will also say i think the latter recognition is important and naturally gives rise to holding preferences with more lightness. otherwise problems around preferences surely do occur because now they are not just naturally arising, like, hell yeah i fucking love sushi, let's go here! instead there is a kind of fixated contraction around a view, e.g., speaking personally i find myself feeling stuck, defensive, thinking my preference must have some kind of intrinsic validity. bleh, bad trip. And that's where the rubber meets the road. What you've well described is the usefulness, and application, of the blended perspective. And from the first part of your post: how could a limited human form express the unlimited? that's actually an incredible incredible question, oh man, i should just stop here. but just to stick with the relative logic here to make a pointless point, a human form can't really express complete inclusiveness. I disagree. A human form can express complete inclusiveness when the exclusion of humanness doesn't occur. When both complete inclusiveness and natural exclusions exist simultaneously and unboundaried, the expression of both naturally arise and...well... all things seem to return to the source and gentle rains fall, as they say. warm regards edit:typo

No.

Luna Bella smiles French Tuscan breeze waves bye-bye Ciao mon ami! Ciao!

TheWayIsVirtue, Thank you for your well thought out and detailed post. I agree that these things can indeed appear multilayered and some people find it much easier to reflect on these things in that manner if for no other reason than to keep concepts sorted out! I also agree that each will view things through the perspective they have for how could it be otherwise? Your counsel is wise that we all should make allowances not only for others' perspectives but also allowances for our own perspectives to change. It is through these discussions that we all have the opportunity to explore not only the complexities of these things but also the opportunity to find the natural simplicity inherent in Tao; the simplicity of the natural quietness of the nei xin; present and available to us at all times. Are these things really as difficult and complex as we make them? I wonder why we try to complicate things unnecessarily. But I digress, your post was about not drawing definate conclusions and I thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. warm regards

Seems all pretty straightforward to me. Maybe other renditions vary, but these three don't seem to between themselves.

Hi strawdog, thanks for posting that! I'd not heard of Hua-Ching Ni, so google to the rescue, and found a rather interesting short discussion about Master Ni in the DIO forum. Well worth the brief read, imo, as it includes posts from a Shaolin (about 10 posts in). Ni is not my cup of tea, but there is room for everyone at this table and I'm glad you joined in. (-: warm regards edit: fix link

Cloudless, crystal clear. Up above the moon lit night, view is good from here.

"All is as should be," will be good to remember with troops on your lawn.