rene

strawdog, thanks, yes - I'm grateful every day to have had the childhood I did. (-:

Gang up? Not that I recall; never a need to gang up re anything in our family. Mom and my brother didn't join in on the game but they were usually around watching us go at it . In later years, there were times when I had the opportunity to work with dad and as a team, well, our 'win' record was about 98%, which meant more to our clients, than us.

so the phrase 'of their own accord' in the first part correlates with the 'sheath body' in the second part.... and what lasts is 1) the internal body of heaven and earth, and 2) the non-body of the saints. right?

Well, that explains why you didn't like others saying what they felt or found the purpose to life as being. The topic was never intended to be impetus for discussion; this was another 'teaching' thread for you, only to be read and either agreed with, applauded, or left unresponded to. You're apparantly not interested in what I find to be the purpose of life (since it doesn't line up with yours) so I'll not burden you with my answers to a question that was never asked. warm regards

Gaia is awake swirly floaty sixties heads drown in kumbaya

I grew up playing a game with my dad: "Pick a topic, any topic. Pick a side, any side, I'll take the other." and we'd be off to the races! As soon as we'd reach a seeming stalemate - we'd switch sides and argue the opposite position! Most times it would end up with us both laughing to tears and conceding there was no clear winner. I played this with him for 40 years. Our last game was the week before he died. I let him win that one.

Plowed deep in fresh snow tracks push on through rivers run salmon sleep on rocks

I was told once that the Feng translation has buddhist flavorings. Now, I dont know anything about that, but in looking at how differently the opening lines in the three translations are rendered, I can see maybe so. For me, starting with Ch 7, things start to get really repetitive... still enjoyable to peruse, but nothing foundationally new that isn't there already in Ch 1 & 2. My take is that when there's nothing new underlying - the external forms are more open to subjective rendering, opening the door to bring in any desired slant: word choices to support applications towards specific traditions, moralistic justifications, directives, etc. Which is all fine, and I'll enjoy reading everyones' ideas and theories, but I probably wont have much input now.. unless I really disagree with something. Or if I just feel like posting. warm regards

I can see how all of those easily fit as a descriptor for this! Dawei - this is now my favorite translation for this Chapter and I printed it off and stuck it appropriately into my tattered Feng/English TTC. Since I was a little girl, I fall asleep by letting my mind sink into the center-point. I used to play with math concepts as a child and the one of perpetual reduction (half of a half of a half, ad infinitum) always facinated me and the first time I was thinking about that at night in bed instead of going to sleep (like I was supposed to be doing!) it moved from my mind to my lower abdomen and I followed it down and in. Wheeeee! And yes, one can pop through to the other side. And that's the reason your translation works for me; your description of Valley Spirit mirrors my experience that finds yes, there is no end-point... yes this is the starting-point of the Universe... and yes, it is effortless. Since then, my perspective is that this mechanism called the Valley Spirit is not limited to the center-point (dantien?) but is fully present everywhere: the Universe also arises on the tip of your fingernail! The Valley Spirit has no end-point This is called the deep-rooted feminine The deep-rooted feminine Is regarded as the starting-point of the Universe It intangibly subsists By functioning effortlessly warm regards edit:typos

deep bows to all three of you and the next time i suggest you guys hush or move plz tell me to stfu. thanks!

Salt on my nipples may not be as effective as on a bird's tail.

When I first read that line in Feng/English back in... '79? I thought it was talking about a child's toy, straw fashioned into a dog. Something to play with and when it got too tattered or outgrown - throw it away!

Manitou, I like your thoughts on this (and your new avatar, very much!). Even though I dont hold to the yin/yang concepts laid onto the TTC, and undoubtedly majc is right in that the various renditions are not (on the surface) what may have been intended, I think what Ch 6 is pointing at is one of those "words aint gonna capture it" aspects. But it's easy to see beneath what is typed, imo, and discover if it reflects the part I bolded in your post above, which from my perspective pretty well nails it. (-: warm regards

ratfink's cement shoes salty aqua fills the lungs Where's yer Tao now, dude?

I like the feminine reference and the shadow of sexuality in the Feng rendition. It seems to underscore the powerful aspect of the place of union, the place of origin, the hidden portal through which the manifest rises.

TianShi, you can count me in as one of the 'limited few' whom your debate appeals to. I dont know whose ideas are right; but I know when the essence of what your and others' dueling-words are pointing at lines up with what resonates in me. I've no problem with the rough edges of anyones' delivery ways. Sometimes breathing is easy; sometimes breathing is hard. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. warm regards

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Mt Merapi calls flame-rock vomit sings your name death comes fast, no sound

You cant move it back? Well, that blows. I've no objections to anything you want to do, Aaron. If you make a new thread in the subforum to copy all the posts into, it will probably have to have a different title as the ghost of this thread still resides there. If you do do this, I'd suggest locking this thread, with an invitation to everyone to come north & post.

(from another thread, copied to here, as requested instructed) Couldn't agree more. Using "High virtue and low virtue" is almost as encumbered as "Captial V Virtue and Lower Case v virtue". Hey, here's an idea - Why don't we just use the word "De" when we're talking about De? Leave it "untranslated". That way, we can use the word 'Virtue' to refer to the social/moral concept. Whenever you see the word 'virtue' in a translation, just switch it to 'de' in your head.

If Twinner would have left this thread in the subforum where it belongs, we wouldn't have to do any double posting. But that's okay; we get more exercise this way, running back and forth. :grabs copy, heads back north, hits paste:

LOLOL you dont need rene's permission for anything. When the name was changed from The Laozi to the TaoTeChing by Religious Taoists to make its inclusion more palatable, well, rene wandered off at that point from any vested interest, heheh. Thanks for your second post; most informative! I love learning. warm regards

Feet up at sunset Feet up howling at the moon. Feet still up at dawn.

Simple Jack, thanks for that link; Adept, thanks for starting the topic. I enjoy reading about the ways of others. (-: warm regards

Are you a big fan of Wayne Dyer, strawdog?