rene

Couldn't agree more. Using "High virtue and low virtue" is almost as encumbered as "Captial V Virtue and Lower Case virtue". Hey, here's an idea - Why dont' we just use the word "De" when we're talking about De? Leave it "untranslated". That way, we can use the word 'Virtue' to refer to the social/moral concept. Whenever you see the word 'virtue' in a translation, just switch it to 'de' in your head.

dawei, thanks for your detailed response (-: I realized after posting my questions that I should have added 'not exclusively to the TTC' when asking about character availability for LZ to use... but I think you gleaned what I wanted as your reply is not limited to that which is only found in the book. So, unless I learn otherwise, if I'm understanding you correctly, the answers to my original questions are... Is there a chinese character for Virtue? (the societal moralistic kind of virtue) Yes, kinda. Is it a different character than the one used for De? No, kinda. If it's the same character, is this (yet another) case of LZ choosing one (commonly used) character to point at something else? (like he did with Dao=path/method/way and Dao=Great Dao) Who the fk knows, kinda.

Aaron, it wasn't bait and they were genuine questions. Surely you don't have a problem with someone being learned. Most here have more knowledge than I do on these things; I rely on the kindness and generosity of others in sharing what they've learned - as you seem to be so freely doing.

eat cold plum in fridge? cant fit in fridge, ya hoser. eat cold plum on porch.

There's ambling, and then there's wounded. Maybe Palin was around with her rifle.

Questions for the learned ones - Is there a chinese character for Virtue? (the societal moralistic kind of virtue) Is it a different character than the one used for De? If it's the same character, is this (yet another) case of LZ choosing one (commonly used) character to point at something else? (like he did with dao=path/method/way and Dao=Great Dao) Thanks!

Questions for the learned ones - Is there a chinese character for Virtue? (the societal moralistic kind of virtue) Is it a different character than the one used for De? If it's the same character, is this (yet another) case of LZ choosing one (commonly used) character to point at something else? (like he did with Dao=path/method/way and Dao=Great Dao) Thanks!

Agree. De is the efficacy found as Dao arises.

on the road again grab your Willie and let's go! stretched out on the surf

Just playin' with ya. Looking forward to the conversation. (-:

LOL yeah. So how's that new found freedom workin out for ya?

Tks! PM just now read; disregard request. Unless you want to. LOL

Oh, okay. I wasn't pulling yours at all. (-: warm regards

Cause and effect? Like action/outcome? I jump off a ledge, I will land somewhere. The moral 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the action might not have much to do with the moral 'rightness or 'wrongness' of the outcome. [Nor the morality-aside 'rightness..etc] The whole post of Twinners was: And the bolded part prompted the karma question. I can see how those who seek/find/read-into the TTC a need for (only) morality have difficulty with this Chapter.

???

Marblehead - Is this ChuangTzu? Which inner chapter? Whose translation? Thanks! The Inner Law He whose law is within himself walks in hiddenness. His acts are not influenced by approval or disapproval. He whose law is outside himself directs his will to what is beyond his control and seeks to extend his power over objects. He who walks in hiddenness has light to guide him in all his acts. He who seeks to extend his control is nothing but an operator. While he thinks he is surpassing others, others see him merely straining; stretching to stand on tiptoe. When he tries to extend his power over objects, those objects gain control of him. He who is controlled by objects loses his inner self. If he no longer values himself, how can he value others? If he no longer values others, he is abandoned. He has nothing left.

KoolAid900 - you're welcome. Glad you enjoyed it. (-:

A Seeker, thanks for your post (-: In this case, I think the "Which" was pretty clear - as delineating a subset. That was the point of that post, imo, the illogicality of a subset delineation for the purposes of a moral judgement (which is the thrust of that argument). It seems (and this part of the exchange here has been good for me to realize this) that when I hear the words "X is better than Y" - I hear the question/statement in a non-moral judgement manner, and reflexively process the question/statement in a "better for what (utility/usefulness)" manner. Part of that reflex is likely caused by not finding moral judgements useful; part of it stems from my nature of holding the utterer in a similar light. Of course, when statements/questions are so obviously of a moral judgment ilk - they're seen for what they are. And pedantic is fine, especially when also not pedestrian. warm regards

Metamorphosize, moonlight streams in open eyes. What change will this bring?

Allan, to me, the 'space between Heaven and Earth' is referring to the aspect of Tao that functions unboundaried with the manifest. As unboundaried, it's inexhaustable and reflects the reverting nature of Tao. warm regards

oh hyok :lol: ************************ Regarding the topic, my thinking is If someone is selling 1) Tao? Walk away laughing. 2) Path to Tao? Run away laughing. 3) Guaranteed path to Tao? Run like hell; dont waste time laughing.