rene

Immaterial. Nothing real. Nothing not-real. It all matters, bud.

Yep. Kinda like staying drunk to avoid drinking. Yeah, that's what I meant. A good barometer of what's to come. For its own sake? Careful, you're starting to sound like an ornamental-methodite. I dont think we're in disagreement here, as long as the avoided conscious effort to explain also doesn't include a conscious effort of how one is supposed to explore. warm regards

:giggle:

Todd, fabulous post. I've spent years trying to explain about "Both" but my words have never risen to the level of these. Thank you for this gift. warm regards, rene

Pretty close, yes. See, to me this is like we all have our hand in the same bag feeling the same thing and then trying to describe or make sense of what we discover, without the benefit of seeing in the bag. As I read the posts and how people sort all this out, sometimes their descriptions come really close to what's in my hand. That's what happened with your sentence. Actually, it pretty well nailed it, but it was the whole sentence, not just the dependent origination part. In my hand is both process and origin of being. As process, eternally in play; as origin of being, both empty and full. Thanks for your reply! warm regards edit: lol tks re bear (-:

Never! Mind tango: sliding through the center point, vanish and return.

Vajrahridaya, hi (-: Would that be one manner of 'dependant origination' ? Thanks!

Nah, I'll do it. I want to whack Marblehead with it on the way up. Thanks!

Yep. Tao the verb and Tao the noun. Both; same time. (-: But that's my view; I dont know what "taoist" view is. warm regards

Rain eh? Still snowing here. (-: You'll start the chapters up though? I'll toss the Feng/English version in each one near the start and we'll see what comes along. I like the variety of comments this one is getting, new stuff to think about!

Hey Aaron, I think one every other day would be a good pace; sequential with the same subject line style... to make it easier for Mal to find 'em later for moving them up. Your commentary in the next following posts makes for a good start too. Fun stuff.

Boy we sure could! And if we get a sub-forum up top, there could be a sticky-thread to collect these kinds of discussions about the TTC in general; freeing up the body for the Chapters! Should we wait for more deliberations and/or an okay from Sean - or get Chapter 2 rolling? warm regards

majc, hi (-: Nice expression! I read a bit of the rest of your rendition on your website. Regarding this, from your post, As for the neutral tone vs. Tao emphasis... Since the book is about Tao, I think not emphasizing Tao is a conscious attempt on behalf of the translator entertainer to make his/her expression of the TTC conform to a preconceived notion of "balance". This isn't about "balance" - it's about attempted exclusion. My perspective finds that the TTC is about all aspects of Tao; including both the mysterious and its reflection in things manifest. Not just one or the other - both. And even moreso than that - our experiencing both at the same time. If LiErh wanted to emphasize, as you suggest, only part of Tao, i.e., the essence and not the application, I doubt he'd have bothered with most of it including..say... Chapter 11 - (May I use yours?) We join thirty spokes at a wheel's hub. The hole in the middle moves the cart. We mould clay into a pot. The emptiness inside is useful. We build walls to make a house. The space is where we live. Adapt what is. Use what is not. On the surface, which is where most TTC readers start, those words have nothing about Tao's essense and everything about its usefulness in application. "This kind of deliberate, forced-down-a-particular-route action is not Te: the free-spirited watercourse style of action exemplified by Lao Tzu." I cant speak for LiErh, but for me, ignoring half of the whole would be the forced action; which is why those two lines in Ch 1 work as a pretty good litmus. warm regards

Hello Allan Lian, it's a delight to see you again. Nice rendition of Ch 1 on your site. Did you work from the chinese characters directly, or use a reference source, or ? Sorry - I cant recall if you're fluent in Chinese or not. warm regards rene [OhC]

Blue jar, full of ash. Dump the butts, pick up bottles, next time we stay home.

AlfredE, hi (-: Thanks for posting the first three chapters of DC Lau's work. Whenever I come across a new (to me) rendition* I check how those two lines (that I bolded above) are handled: If they are neutral in tone, like the Feng/English - Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations. - or if they strongly favor one aspect over another, like this one by Frederick B. Thomas (1948): Truly, only he who frees himself from desire Can ever see the secret Essences. He who has not conquered passion, Can only see manifest results. It's easy to see how some paths would favor this type of approach; and if the translator strongly embraces one of those paths it would likely reflect in the result. Here is a link to "175+ translations of Chapter 1". Also, here is link to another forum that for quite a while has been exploring the TTC in depth, perhaps more technical depth than will be addressed here. warm regards *I like using 'rendition' rather than 'translation' as, imo, every 'translation' of the DDJ can be nothing more than the individual's 'interpretation'.

Might be comparing apples and oranges there. Water is naturally sans intent and people are not; this thread is about the effectiveness of methods for the reasons they're approached, ie, intent. Or maybe you are suggesting that it's better if people have no intent?

blazing sun, above balances yin moon, within arms outstretched, touch all

*whew!* indeed! LOL Hiya, Trunk Of course you are right; I was speaking only from my perspective which is of little use to anyone else. (-: warm regards

Taomeow, hi & nicely described! Your words of 'volume, expanse,' gave me a giggle as oh my yes it has volume and expanse, for where would this aspect NOT be? LOL. It's a joy for me to read about these things in the lingo of your tradition. warm regards

Third eye awakened took one look around and yelled, Where's that damn Visine??

Hagar, hi To me, the body light is the cosmic energy. I dont find the (seeming) solids of flesh & bones to be a barrier or bucket to temporarily hold a portion of the flow. There's a constant dynamic exchange and even the word 'exchange' doesn't describe it unless it would be like in the ocean one wave 'exchanges' for another. You can shoot light rays out of your fingertips in the dark?? Way cool. You guys have all the neat tricks. I just kind of flop around and seem to find my way. (-: warm regards

I look forward to Ch 56.

Marblehead, hi I worked with Dr. Wang on the first half of his book, and his Wu and Yo in Ch 1, and throughout, his TTC translation weren't intended to be synonymous with Mystery and Manifest; rather instead the terms point at two of the three fundamental states of Tao (Oneness being the third). Agree. Twice removed, but only in a manner of speaking. If you look at an object using a mirror, what you see is not the object but its reflection, yes? You can describe, and experience, the reflection - and it can be a very accurate description, but it's a description of the reflection. Would the information you glean about the object by observing the reflection be complete? Nope. Would the object be similar to its reflection? You betcha. Similar enough maybe for a starting point. Observe the Manifest; see Tao's reflection.

Twinner - thanks for getting things going! My fav is the Feng/English translation. If anyone happens to have the 25th Anniversary release of the original, it tells a small story of how the translation came to be - and the final version was actually written by the editor, Toinette Lippe! Click for story So much for pedigree. LOL Feng/English Chapter One The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of the ten thousand things. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations. These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery. For me, Chapter 1 pretty much nails it - and the rest of the DDJ chapters are delightful illustrations, examples and explanations for those who might enjoy more to understand the applications and implications.