altiora

When anyone says that they have "secret" teachings that have "never before been released to the public", I hide my credit card and reach for my gun

There is a book called 'Christ the Eternal Tao" by a Orthodox priest who was a follower of Seraphim Rose that attempted to explore the thesis that Christ was the incarnation of the Tao. Haven't read it myself but it has received very good reviews. I have to say that of my many years of reading and research, it is philosophical Taoism that comes closest to Orthodox Christianity out of all the Eastern religions. Now there are several things that have aroused by concern about this topic. 1. I'm just a little fed up by people who are completely and utterly ignorant of Christianity spouting their groundless opinions. It always amazes me that these same people seem to lecture others on showing respect to Eastern and alternative spirtualities, yet don't think they themselves owe any such respect to Christianity. I may be an Orthodox Christian, and I may think that salvation is only through Christ, but I consider showing disrespect or rubbishing other ancient, and more thought out modern, traditions is totally wrong. I am completely comfortable with informed, reasoned debate. 2. Let us be very clear that most sects cavorting around as "Christians" have no right to do so: they are either "everything is negotiable, there is no Truth, everything is relative; and therefore the Creeds are a load of nonsense" (to be found increasingly in the mainstream Protestant denominations (a la "Bishop" Spong) and the Bible idolaters (ie the fundamentalists) who think that they understand the Bible, that they have some completely self-sufficient capacity to interpret the Bible and thus don't need to consider tradition and the writings of the Holy Mothers and Fathers. Contrary to what a lot of people think, the Christian church (from the very earliest days, e.g Origen) did not interpret the Bible literally -- for instance, none but ignoramouses accepted that God created the universe in 7 human days or that there really was a physical Garden of Eden. These were considered metaphors by which to impart spiritual truths using language and concepts that were man-made. In the Orthodox Church, St Theophan the Recluse stated that the simple should read the Lives of the Saints; the more intelligent should read the writings of the Holy Fathers and Mothers; while only the "perfect" should read the Bible. By "perfect" St Theophan meant someone who had advanced spiritual and intellectual understanding so that they could accurately contemplate the meaning of the Bible, because it is not to be obtained by a literal interpretation. 3. I was once under the impression that us Westerners are somehow spiritual barbarians compared to the holy evolved Easterners. Then I discovered that Christianity, prior to the Church of Rome and the Reformation pretty much destroying it all, was in every way just as rich in wisdom as Taoism and Buddhism People should read someone like Meister Eckhart (but not Suzuki's very poor book on him), the writings in the Philokalia (there's an excellent introduction to them by Anthony Coniaris) and the writings of the Desert Fathers. These writings emphasise that the true Christianity is about theosis/ deification by which we seek to completely change our habitual ways of living by discovering what is True and natural and discarding the passions and automatic responses that fetter us. The true Christianity is about humans becoming "partakers in the Divine Nature" by becoming "gods" in the image of "God". The early Christians were quite emphatic that Christianity is a Path of Liberation that requires many many years of hard work. I do recommend the novel "Way of the Pilgrim" as an easy and enjoyable introduction to all this. 4. I'm not going to join this ridiculous and groundless speculation that Christ was taught by Buddhists high in some secluded monastery in Tibet etc. Or that it was clear that the Christians "cribbed" it from the Eastern religions etc. Why can't we Westerners accept the good parts of our Christian heritage, instead of seeking to "validate" Christianity (or perhaps they're trying to validate Eastern spirituality) by trying to claim that Christ was Buddhist/Hindu/Taoist avatar/Bodhisattva/sage/mage etc. And we need also to accept that the East doesn't have a monopoly on "wisdom" -- there are many many profound Western writers and teachers (past and present) if you have an open mind. I am happy to read and contemplate the gems of wisdom from both the West and East -- but due to ancestral and cultural ties my feet are firmly on the Western side of the fence.

I read Dr Sha's book and found it extraordinarily amateur and more than a little preposterous. But even so, I do have an antipathy to message boards being used to circulate cult accusations. I would suggest the more appropriate forum is to contact either the police (if in breach of any laws) or a reputable investigative journalist.

Might I suggest you taking advantage of the low exchange rate by buying products from www.evergreenherb.co.nz. The lovely lady who runs the company happily responds to questions as to the appropriate products -- her "Mens Vigour" and "Good Sleep 1" are especially formulated for low jing. They also contain herbs that may actually be a bit more helpful than those ginsengs by themselves. The owner is an TCM acupunturist and herbalist. I've used both -- the good sleep product is fantastic. For the record, I don't have any interest in this website.

Think that hits the nail on the head really. It all comes down to your reasons for practice. My experience is that qigong goes hand-in-hand with the search for enlightenment quite nicely: it ensures that your body and mind are healthy so that you're more able to devote time to pursuing enlightenment, theosis, yoga etc. To me the practice of qigong started first and foremost about having a healthy body, then I realised it worked, and that in turn opened up the real prospect that we're more than just flesh. And it wasn't much of a journey to start asking the Big Questions about life, morality, relationships and death. My key discovery was that the sort of things that tend to deplete/block my qi are the sorts of things that morality and religion warn us about: thoughts and behaviour that prevent us from recognising that we are more than the little self and that place barriers between us and the big Self or God or Tao etc. That then made me start to examine my daily morality. But I do agree that in this age of the qigong publishing/teaching industry, it is important not to lose focus of the point that if you wish to attain enlightenment, theosis, yoga etc, qigong isn't going to get you there by itself. In fact it could become more of a distraction in making you focus on your body and your ego's capabilities. I found myself getting into that trap too: learning the next flash qigong technique, seeking paranormal powers. And then I asked myself, even if I do learn this new technique, even if I do attain paranormal powers, what does it matter when I die anyway.

There is no "conspiracy" been alleged: it is a factual observation as to why these threads have been created. The posts are attributable to people who are clearly upset at the questions that have been raised and who are trying to counter the negative impression been left by others. Admittedly "propaganda" is a loaded word so perhaps I should have chose another word. To me if some one says silly things about my practices and beliefs, I just don't bother to condescend to respond -- it's not worth dignifying their comments with a response and because I feel secure in myself to know I'm correct. Again, I have to ask what is wrong with people questioning and seeking answers without getting some knee jerk emotive "how dare you" response. I don't have any vested interest in this topic. But as is often the case with debates of this type, I do feel that if these questions that have been raised about the veracity of Kunlun teachings had been answered convincingly from day one, this debate would not have been continuing. Again I raise the issue of how in future should claims made by teachers be resolved so that people can get on with it. And what are the responsbilities of teachers who make such claims to provide affirmative proof of their credentials. I have to say that the pro Kunlun group seems to at least as guilty as the anti kunlun group (oh dear I might be guilty of conspiracy raking here) in lowering the civility and tone of this "discussion" and imputing foul deeds to those who disagree with them. As for the comparing the artist analogy: it's not very convincing. The artist doesn't claim valdity from a lineage or special knowledge, but rather from the works he or she produce. You and I are able to make our own judgment about the merits of those works. But we don't have such a choice with teachers. We are to an extent reliant on the veracity of the claims they make. A teacher, including this Max fellow, claim to derive this hitherto "secret" practice from qualified teachers and various lineages. They claim that these qualifications give them special knowledge. This is a selling point as to why we should trust the teacher with our time and money. Accordingly in my view we are quite entitled to ask some hard questions and ask for proof of lineage claims. We are quite entitled to draw inferences from the things the teachers say -- it tells us much about what they know and therefore what they will teach us. And those teachers should front up and provide credible proof of the claims they make. I don't see why teachers should be any different to lawyers, doctors, accountants, nurses etc in being required to affirmatively prove they have the qualifications they claim. I'll provide another example is reiki. There were (and still are) all sorts of reiki "masters" wandering around saying they had the "secret teachings" and the "original, pure school" etc etc. Incidentally three of such well known examples also claimed to be Lamas (but this was proven false as it turns out). It took research to find out that they were false and for them to be exposed. It was enormously unpopular when these questions were raised: people had invested so much money and time into these practices. And as you can imagine these teachers engaged in smear campaigns and dissemination to distract these questions being asked. One of the comments they made when these false teachers were exposed was "but people find it works". Well that's great, but they should have done the honest thing and said that they had made it up themselves and not that it derived from secret teachings to which they alone were privy. It's about honesty. I choose practices that I know have stood the test of many centuries. Some prefer more modern approaches. Well and good. Both approaches are fine. But the point is that if you have created it yourself, then say so and let it be judged on its own merits. If you have derived it from a long lineage please provide the proof. Perhaps someone could be so kind as to share one kunlun practice so that us kunlun virigins can see its efficacy. Interestingly the tantalizing hints of the standing kunlun practice elsewhere on this forum remind me of the "Three Dragons of Kunlun" prepatory postures taught by Chris Lee Matsuo on his Heart of Bagua DVD. But as I say, the details I have of kunlun practices are so hazy that I can't be sure.

Without wanting to add further heat to this already overheated debate, I have to say as someone who was only recently drawn attention to this Kunlun practice, that some of the replies have confirmed my gut instinct that I won't be spending any time examining this practice. Having read all the various threads on this issue, it seems to me that all the questions that have been raised as to the veracity of this teacher's claimed credentials etc have never been answered or addressed. These invites for Max to meet starjumper for coffee have confirmed my suspicion that the proliferation of kunlun threads and "diaries" is part of a propaganda counter-offensive organised by Kunlinbliss.com or people affiliated to this organisation. And this just confirms why I'll stay clear. But two things does interest me about this kunlun debate. First, is the extent to which people feel they can question and debate the veracity of particular teachers and schools. My view is that genuine and reasonable questions should be able to be freely raised, and responded to with maturity and facts. I don't think people should get upset by such questions because they consider them to be qi "sabotage". For instance, some research has indicated that one or two people have suggested that the particular form of Tai Chi ruler I practice isn't completely "authentic" to the teachings of the founder. Now I had two options as to how to process this: I could just say "rubbish" and go on with my practice, or I could undertake further research by ordering various books and emailing teachers with questions. I chose the latter course of action. I may find evidence that suggests that the form I'm practicing is not fully authentic. If so, it won't be an initially nice experience, but I'll be glad that I have this new knowledge and will alter my practice accordingly. Second, the debate raises the problem I've often encountered with the western New Age and spiritual movements, what accountability mechanisms are there to prevent teachers who make untrue claims as to their skills, training etc? Traditionally in the East, you needed to show that you had your master status conferred on you by a recognised lineage. Seemingly, this would need to have been verified by neutral sources. What sorts of controls are there in western spiritual circles? How can uncertainties about a teacher's credentials be addressed so that people can get on with it and stop re-litigating? Just food for thought.

Just another angle on this issue: I note that Hua Ching Ni in his "Workbook for [the] Spiritual Development of All People", at p140 states the the second day of the full moon is the only day on which men can have sex without damaging their jing. Any other people have insight on this statement by Hua Ching Ni?

Not sure I agree with you. I know that there are records of quite a few Chinese and Japanese students who changed between the various schools of Buddhism and Taoism, but ONLY after many decades of practice and after having attained some considerable measure of success. The Jain approach I think has more to do with their famous pacifism: why fight over spiritual matters when they're trying to express the same sort of aspirations. Hua Ching Ni made the very pithy remark that Western students tended to want to know everything, but practice nothing.

I'm flexible about the New Age movement. It has opened people up to influences that they mightn't otherwise been exposed to. But there are two problems I do have with the "movement" or more correctly particular persons I have met: 1. Superficiality -- Certain New Age "dabblers" think that one can "take what one needs" from various religious/spiritual traditions and debunk the rest. Yes one should be open minded and critical, but religious/spiritual systems require a lifetime of practice. Unless you commit to that you can't do themk justice or given them the respect they deserve. My experience is that some New Agers don't have the work or intellectual capacity to seriously engage in the religions/spiritual practices they proclaim to follow. To make matters worse some do then claim superior knowledge on the basis of their superficial approach. When you do try to debate with them, you get this "oh you're just stuck in the brain centred western culture; whereas I've higher wisdom from my heart and intutition centres" response. These sorts of attitudes are sadly encouraged by the vast numbers of (more often than not) vacuous New Age books that are pumped out every year. It's sort of like New Agism has become some big free market where there is a price for everything, nothing has lasting value, and the customer is always right. Recently at a reiki workshop I attended, this burly bloke stood up and said to the group "I'm certainly not a Christian [which was said with palpable disgust I might add]; I'm a Buddhist". Not sure why he considered this necessary to say this in the first place -- it wasn't as if we were asked to proclaim our faith. Anyway I had a chat to him about his beliefs afterwards to find that he knew nothing about Christianity or Buddhism. It was all just ego dressing. It does raise the issue of how thrilled I would be (if I were a Buddhist who studied the teachings and practiced every day) to have people like him wandering around proclaiming they are Buddhist. I don't think it is right to appropriate "tags" and knowledge if one hasn't made the sacrifices and hardwork to justify it. I know quite a few Sri Lankan Buddhists and Indian Hindus who have a mixture of amusement and disgust at some of the attitudes of western "adherents" to their spiritual traditions: they remark that whereas they try to "live" their traditions and don't claim to know very much about them (which in my experience is very often not true), the western adherents seem to "wear" the tradition and will pontificate about it at a drop of a hat. 2. Arrogance and intolerance -- As a corporate lawyer who has returned back to his father's Orthodox Christian roots, I've received a fair share of "you're an unevolved money chaser who supports a religion that burnt, tortured etc etc" from New Agers. At this yoga studio I would attend after work, I would get this look of distate and "who's that stranger" when I walked through the door. It was then followed by a very cold shoulder and exclusion from their little clique. The attitude was "this place isn't for your type". It seems to be that New Agism has become a sort of ghetto in which its inhabitants feel smugly superior to everyone else and exclude anyone who they don't consider to be their type. Some New Agers just don't realise (unlike the Taoists) that the real spiritual warriors are those out there who try to apply their spiritual principles whilst engaged in the community and everyday life, earning a living, and contributing to society. A spiritual warrior is not one who spends life continually hanging out in communes and meditation/yoga retreats. Spirituality is not "bliss" escapism but rather hard work and uninhibited engagment with the grit of life. As I've tried to emphasise my comments shouldn't be taken as suggesting that all New Agers are like this. But in my experience, an awfully large number seem to be so.

Well you need to do what we did in New Zealand and kick out the Labour government. NZ got fed up with it's nanny state "we know best mentality so we'll legislate to make you do as we want" mentality -- which include ligh bulb restrictions and shower pressure restrictions (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4724057a24663.html). Now we breathe a sigh of relief, the new National (sort of like the Torys) government has promptly dropped it: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article....jectid=10548446 I'm all for conservation, protecting the environment -- and I might add I practice what I preach -- but I'm also fully in favour of treating adults as mature and educated enough to make the best decisions voluntarily. Alas in NZ as just elsewhere, nanny state interfering policiticians, and far left radicals masquerading as "Greens", just love the power too much.

Well it depends by what you mean by "sexually". I know this is the sort of smarty pants thing to say. But I think it's very important we get clear about it. I'll tell you why: I stumbled some work some years back when I was doing my thesis on disability and the law. It had nothing to do about that topic other than disability. It was a study examining sexual responses in people paralyzed from the waist down. The amazing thing they discovered was that they were fully sexual beings. The popular cultural assumption was that they had to be asexual due to the disability. Not so said the evidence of disabled peoples' lives. The fact that they had no response in the genitals was no impediment to have fulfilling sexual lives. The reason being is that many of them had developed such sensitivity to touch in the sensate areas of their bodies -- indeed some were able to have the seemingly mythical body orgasm. Now the reason I mention this is that currently people equate "sexuality" with genitals. As the study I've just been referring to indicates, this is a load of nonsense -- sexuality is about intimacy, of which genital can play a negligible, and (in some cases) no, role. So returning to your question: when you say you need to rekindle your "sexual energy" do you mean as expressed through the genitals? If so, then perhaps you might like to first explore the possibility that sexuality can be expressed in other ways and ways that you might be more comfortable with. Just a thought. I'm all for challenging our western culture's obsession with genitals -- whether of the "they're the fruit of satan" or the "they're the fruit of Eden" schools of thought. For my two cents worth advice: forget Chia and fancy Taoist practices, light those candles, sit facing one another, gaze into her eyes, and just recall EVERY blessing she's bought you, and then embrace until your breathing and heart beats are united. If you or her can't be content with that, then I'm afraid that there's nothing one could ever be content with.

Does anyone know of a reputable online supplier of Taoist home shrine supplies please? Am trying to get hold of images of the Three Purities etc. Hua Ching Ni suggests using the covers of his first three books, but that it somewhat inconvenient. I've researched for quite some time with no luck, apart from www.taoresource.com which appears not to be working. There's no where in my city that sells such items. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I'm reminded of Jesus' statement that that we can only attain the kingdom of God if we become like little children.

Agree with wudangquan I don't think that this is the correct understanding either. Just about every Taoist text that deals with sexual desire (and the same for all spiritual traditions I know) is that sexual desire can be an obstacle if we submit let it take over - it is such a powerful and (when untransformed) base energy that hinders comprehension of divine truths. All other Taoist texts I know suggest that it is the older persons who more readily find the Tao than compared to younger persons -- because it's only through living life that one can begin to fathom the workings of the Tao. And I have to say, as someone who has just come out of the sex-saturated 20-something period, I ain't feeling terribly enlightened. I wonder if by "sex drive" is really meant metaphorically in the sense that one must be vigorous and robustly healthy (as opposed to the decrepit "old man") so that one can strive ceaselessly on the spiritual quest and not be afflicted by ill health, premature aging and death. I think that aligns with the traditional focus of Taoist on longevity. Sorry I know a lot of you would love there to be some Taoist injunction that sexual indulgence is always good.

Good to hear. The Mexican shamans who use this plant emphasise that it is a teacher -- it teaches you things that you need to learn. And it would seem it has indeed taught you something and often it's not what you want to know. Mal, the problem for your importation problem is that salvia is rarely cultivated from seed. I saw some seeds on ebay months ago, but can't vouch if they were fertile. Personally I'd steer clear of Salvia until you've completely detoxed from any other interesting substances. Salvia is a jealous mistress -- she doesn't like other substances interfering with her transmissions.

Did you take it as commercially prepared extract or smoke it? My experience is people who ingest it in these ways get bad reactions. The traditional way is to chew a quid of leaves -- it takes more leaf, takes longer to get a reaction than other methods. I've had nothing but gentle experiences with it, that have gradually got more intense as time goes on as I'm ready for it. And I've found it very refreshing afterwards because it just confirms the illusion of my small 'self'. I only use it when my plants have regenerated sufficiently from my last use. The Mexican indians who take this "herb" (not a "drug"!) stress that it is important to fast and approach it with pure intent to learn and with prayer. They teach that things backfire very very badly if you just do it to get a "trip" (not that you can get a trip or hallucinate with it anyway - politicians please note!). It's not a recreational substance; its sacredness needs to be respected. Unfortunately the shops in NZ and elsewhere market it to the "herbal-E" and party pill brigade -- but most such persons get an almighty shock when they use it as they are expecting expanded egos when it does quite the reverse. It's this very marketing that will one of these days result in this sacred herb being made illegal. For the record, I've never touched any drugs and don't intend to.

Just come across the ditch to NZ. Still legal here. Got some growing (not too well) in my garden. But hurry before the nasty politicians get the itch to ban (we've got rid of a nanny state left wing government, but hoping the new government is a bit more easy goes).

Now this topic is becoming fascinating. i have to admit when I saw the topic my first reaction was "Who let the monkeys in?!" Anyway hit the nail on the head. After 6 years with my partner I've come to the conclusion that the sex/lust factor is the short term magnetism nature uses to draw us together; therein after the success of a marriage/partnership depends on the ability to replace that animal magnetism with a more durable and less tangible bond of loyalty of just being there for each other and working through experiences. I know a lot of South Asians (and in their 20s and 30s) living here in New Zealand. They're as western as me, but they choose arranged marriages, because the family elders tend to assess the compatibility of potential partners in terms of temperament etc. Not surprising these couple have "grown" into love, and more often than not this growth starts from the pragmatic realisation by each partner that they've just got to make it work.

Well to be honest I think starting from the premise that you want to be "rid" of them is half the problem. It's likely to end in failure because you're likely to just repress and thereby increase the pressure of the desires. We are human beings and therefore the vast majority of us will always have sexual desires. If it's any consolation th Desert Fathers of the Christian tradition were battling with their sexual desires even after decades in solitary retreat in the middle of the desert. Now if they couldn't be rid of those desires, then what hope for us ordinary mortals. Sexual desire has troubled spiritual cultivators since the dawn of time, and always will. A more Taoist (and common sense approach) would be to harmonise your sexual desires. Many of the posts have suggested just keeping busy, doing other things, etc -- that is an aspect of harmonisation. In my opinion there are two other things that bring further harmonisation (this is from personal experience): 1. establish the extent to which these desires are just spontaneous body functioning as opposed to products of your own "stoking the fires" by thoughts and external material i.e., how often do you have sexual day dreams; watch material that is likely to suggest/invite sexual response (not just pornography but also quite a few over sexualised prime time TV programs)?; how often to you have lustful thoughts when you see good looking people etc? In my experience so much sexual desire isn't "natural" in the sense of spontaneous expression of bodily functions, but rather a response that is manufactured by our own chosen behaviour. This behaviour is encouraged by modern consumerist culture where sex and acquisition are inextricably linked. And that chosen behaviour costs a lot of time and energy that is ultimately unwarranted. So eliminate the behaviour that starts the desire off and half the battle is won. 2. establish the extent to which you just express your desires; i.e., do you access pornography, have casual sexual encounters, masturbate, engage in even more sexual day dreams. Again in my experience I found that most of the power of sexual desire is that it would trigger off certain pre-programmed responses that had built up from repetition. Each repetition entrenches the behaviour as my habitual response to sexual desire. By consciously choosing not to follow this previous behaviour, slowly but gradually I took control and not let the sexual desire control me. Instead I went do something else. This is just a "recipe" that I made up from my own experience. It's not an easy process but I found that thinking about those two things allowed me to be mindful of what is happening and its causes, and thereby allowed me to get my autonomy and power back to make the changes I wanted to happen. This is not to say I'm a celibate monk -- but rather that I put sexual desire back into its rightful place and proportion, and consequently have a lot more time and energy to spend on things that really matter. Ironically it has also resulted in sexual conduct becoming more special. And the other thing is not to get too worked up if your resolution crumbles. You do need strong determination and genuine motivation to succeed, but you have to laugh at how silly is our fixation with sex.

Sorry you miss the point: why do you need to criticise in a public way? I thought Asian culture was very sensitive to the need to make sure the other "keeps face"? And as for my dressing down, it was sticking up for some respect to a guy who devotes a ot of time to this Forum, whose absence would be a great loss to this Forum, and who 17 people thought it right to comment "touche" etc. There is a difference between imparting meaningful comments rather than just criticising? I mean that what they do in youtube, surely not here? This has nothing to do with my personal feelings, other than a plea to adhere to some quality control and manners before letting off your "opinions".

Personally I don't have a problem with the Fu posts. But I do have a problem with people using the discussion board to place posts criticising others -- perhaps a more tactful, compassionate, way might have been to send a private message request instead. And dare I say it all the "hanger on" replies supporting the initial message is also disappointing. How much salt does one need to rub in the wound of a public dressing down? After all Mak tin Si is posting with the best of intentions to share what he knows -- even if some of you might wish he did it an alternative way. Dare I say it Taoism tells us a lot about tolerance and forbearance...

Hi A qigong practitioner from New Zealand. Have practiced in several qigong forms, mainly zhineng. Am searching (perhaps vainly) for a form that allows me to understand the law of life. Find many qigong forms feel more like self applied acupuncture sessions, or else leave me ungrounded (being a lawyer my qi goes straight to the head due to thinking all day). I love circle walking -- it roots me, creates an amazing core of energy in myself and the centre of the external circle. But I'm finding the martial arts applications of modern day Bagua not entirely to my taste. If any one can point me to someone teaching the more spiritual, meditation orientated ba gua circle walking, star stepping etc, I would be very grateful. I have attempted Hua Ching Ni's Cosmic Tour Bagua, but concluded that without a teacher I would fail miserably. I tried the static qigong but need some movement to assist stop the very active monkey mind. And I would love a form that allows me to contact the spiritual beings who can assist me on my spiritual path.

Thank you for your reply. The problem is I'm not really into any martial arts and kung fu: I guess I'm not really the alpha-male type who finds it stimulating. I'm more into the contemplative and spiritual side, in particular I love prayer and so want to find practices that allow me to centre my qi and allow me to seek assistance (and provide assistance) to helper spirits. So if you have any suggestions of teachers I could approach, I would be most grateful. I live in New Zealand, so that may be a problem if online teaching is not possible. Regarding bagua: i did read that some people dispute it having any Taoist origins, being rather consider the founder's story about its origins just being there to legitimize his teachings.