farmerjoe

Some people that have fallen by the wayside may become serious cases. The suicide may or may not be a rumor but there are people that have been hurt just the same, not only from the way Kunlun was taught,but long before it. These things seem to follow or be a repeating pattern of broken relationships and poor judgment with this teacher. All of this comments on the teaching style and lack of commitment to the students. This theme will continue to be repeated with this teacher, and may become a pattern for the students, from what I have read that seems to already be the case.I appreciated all the material in this thread and wish nothing had been deleted or censored. Charity begins at home, when it doesn't people complain. None of you wanted any of this to happen, but from what I read it seems to me that the understanding was always there that it would.Joe.

-O- Please read what you wrote: And then read it again. What you wrote is based on what Max didn't say? I have to repeat that it seems to me that you give too much credit to the teacher and not enough to what you learned for yourself. He seems to make the process harder for students now encouraging things that are best to avoid. Consider please that you got him at the right time as well as got the best of him. I am glad you are moving on. I don't think you need him anymore. Joe.

I sincerley hope for your sake and as well as everyone elses that it all gets worked out and goes well for all of you. Joe.

This is a serious issue. Very serious. I can't see how both sides wouldn't have done everything possible to rectify it. It reflects negatively on the student who produced the tapes as well as the teacher who allowed it. What kind of secret teachings are these? They obviously do not promote clear thinking or lead to sound judgment, but instead contribute to allowing one to make poor choices for themselves that can potentially lead to severe consequences for others. This signals to me great instability and gives me cause for concern. Based on what I've been reading though it is the student that is always to blame. I think -O- that you and others give the teacher far too much credit, far too much. Thank you to all for your posts. I will never consider becoming a student of this teacher or practice again. Joe.

I don't think this statement has or can ever be true for anyone. During the OMG moments people forget what they don't really know. Joe. Thank you for your posts. I have appreciated them. Joe.

Do the Kunlun students agree with this statement? There was no involvement or encouragement from Max to journal or post? Joe. Did you learn directly from Max? If so was it important to learn directly from him? Would you say it was/is important to see him occasionally for guidance? do you teach Kunlun? Thank you for answering my questions.Joe.

Are you Philip? Are you or were you a student of Max's? Did you learn what you have written from Max? If so why isn't he teaching this at the seminars too? Why would Max set up a website and encourage community if what you write is true? Would this not encourage a dependence on the teacher and the community? How come you know this and they don't? Joe.

Not everyone. There are some of us that have appreciated what he has had to say. There is a "point" otherwise people wouldn't bother posting. I read through for the "point". goldisheavy has always had good points and they are found in every post he makes. He hasn't learned the best way to present them yet to encourage the consideration of others is all. mjbecker used to write aggressively then mellowed out, he's forgotten that he used to be the same way. People can change. We all have stuff we are going through. If we focus on the points found in every post maybe we can withold our anger and actually read through each post without it so we can see the wisdom. There have been lots of spiritual leaders that have been very unlikeable and morally corrupt. What is the measure of wisdom, if it doesn't come in the "proper" package should it be overlooked? I like goldisheavy and have enjoyed his posts the most. He stirs the pot and gets people out of their sleepy mode and gets them thinking. Even with stuff like this we can get into a rut. Even with stuff like this. I have to go now. It's time for me to go - girlfriend, too much schoolwork, 2 jobs, dog, cat, and 3 goldfish and practice. My best to everyone. Joe.

Cameron, what about you? You've written as many negative things regarding Kunlun as positive so have a lot of other Kunlun students. It's all there in what I've been reading. It is there. You are still not sure of it because you went to another teacher and so have other Kunlun students. There are some posts that you haven't deleted. You do keep defending it and always answer, or tell people to stop talking about it ??????????????????????????????? It's all so very very weird. I give up it's time to go. Thanks everyone. Joe.

"Once the alchemy is restarted it does not end. There are many changes to go through...." "There is great purpose in all of it"... What? Once restarted it does not end. Can't stop it. I do not even understand the choices. Golden Body - Rainbow body, no one has provided a sufficient explanation of what they are or what happens to you. I should understand the choices. What kind of choices to I have with Kunlun & transmission? You make it sound like once it has begun and is restarted by transmission all choice is lost - you won't have anymore choice and it's doesn't matter what you do it's going to be done to you like a runaway train. I should understand the choices. What kind of choices do I have with this practice Kunlun & transmission. Does transmission take away my choice. What kind of choices do I have. Understand the choices - understand the choices - understand the choices. Who does. There is great purpose in all of it. Who are you and can you answer my questions? How many workshops have you attended just one? I already asked you this and it was more than once. It would be nice to get a clear coherent knowledgeable answer about this because it is important!!!!!!!!!! Joe.

It does sound like this is going to include being honest with yourself. If you should happen to lie again, at least you'll know your reasons why and it will have been a choice instead of a knee jerk reaction. Saying I'm sorry, forgiving, and allowing forgiveness is the hardest thing and best thing all at the same time. All my best to you. Joe.

Notice my last line - Where do I sign up for that? I know I'm not perfect I have a lot to learn but I know now that I won't find it here on this site. Joe.

I don't think that inpugning the selflessness of Santiago was ever the original intent. If you take a look at the topic - How To Properly Thank A Person - I think you will find what moved goldisheavy to write what he did. It wasn't personal not how I read it. What I have found interesting is how some people take offense at the thought of spiritual teachers doing what they do as a business or to earn a living. This in my opinion is dangerous to the practicioner/student and can lead them to focus and follow more the teacher than the teachings, and then all reason is lost. No one acts are purely altruistic, there is something that drives everyone this also applies to things that have to do with spirit - wanting spiritual freedom for yourself - wanting to learn how to heal so you can help others etc. Reduce it all, sit and get real and you'll find out what moves you. For some it is a call and spirit moves them in everything that they do, but I haven't met anyone like that I've heard about them and read about them and their teachings that have shown us the way. You can pick apart what they've written and expose their teachings to light but reason will agree with them because there is a perfect balance of spirit, head, heart, mind, everything in balance. Where do I sign up for that? Joe. Added Later - I'd like to ask the teachers on this site - Is what you do purely altruistic? Joe.

You are entitled to your anger but isn't it more important for you to get your point across? Your approach immediately puts the person you are speaking to on the defensive and your point is lost because of it. goldisheavy's is responsible for the same approach and that is why his point has been lost. That is a shame because his point is valid and he probably learned it in a way that involved great pain. Santiago was unfortunately or fortunately (depending on the way you look at it) the person who pushed his buttons exposing what he learned and the emotion that came with it. Santiago is a good guy because he really did help, not in the normal way that everyone thinks you should help someone, he helped just by being himself and that brought to light some things that goldisheavy needed to see . Joe.

This approach would have most certainly worked better. Then perhaps what could have followed is presenting your ideas/solutions as suggestions for consideration and inviting comments and participation from the whole community. "...do we all see Golds point? Too much praise leading to bloated ego. It can also lead to clickishness. I don't agree with his solution, but his point is valid." thelerner That is the only way I see that a Tao Bums "How to Properly Thank a Person" list would result - with the contributions and support of everyone. Even then it would serve as a guideline only, but at least the "the point" would always be considered benefiting everyone. Joe.

Max has a dramatic story but I certainly didn't create it: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...l=philip+toledo http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=5579&st=0 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=7751&st=40 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...kunlun&st=0 Keep checking back I'll add more links as I find them again. Joe.

FYI Kunlun website: http://www.kunlunbliss.com/teachers.html

I didn't create any of it but took it from posts that where added to this site by Mantra/Chris Tittle. I created none of it. I would be happy to cut and paste or add links to everything that I have read. Cameron's dramatic post of not being qualified and yours came after one of my posts where I stated that I didn't think that anyone here could answer my questions. Go back in this thread and take a look or would you like me to cut and paste that too? I've learned a lot here. Mostly if I should ever make it out to a Max free lecture I now know what I personally need to ask him. I at no time disrespected the teacher or the practice and have thanked all of you many times for sharing and your patinence. How does that qualify as being despicable? Joe. Thank you but apparently others don't seem to be in agreement with you and see "thought" as being despicable. Joe.

You give me too much credit, surely "what is a transmission" and how will it affect me, general "what am I consenting to" are beginner questions, things I should know to maintain and keep the gift of my free will and right to choose. Joe.

There is truth here, all too easy for this to become another obstacle. I seem to recall too a private pm going public in a recent topic that may have hurt a friendship recently, so this all just seems like good etiquette to me. Joe.

You don't even consider that what he has is in fact a business. I don't know enough about Santiago's story other than he is a teacher, a husband, a father, a friend and seems like a really good person, and because he has dependents and is alive then this all demands that he earns a living. Max is a businessman. He started off small teaching to small groups and disappeared because he wanted to test his students and see what they'd do with what he taught them. His friend Phillip Toledo continued to use his name to sell tapes and make a profit and when Max resurfaced refused to believe it was really him so Max was ripped off of his share of profits. This story is common knowledge. Max was unable to save this friendship and Chris Tittle began a campaign to prove that Phillip was nuts by posting one of Phillip's letters. Most people who have attended a seminar can tell you that Max is eccentric. Phillip is not nuts. He might not have been a good friend and was a shady businessman but he wasn't nuts not when you look and weigh the whole thing. So Max learned a really cool practice from Jenny Lamb and put that together with some of what his other teachers taught him and then he started teaching it to small groups. He continued learning more things and then met Chris Tittle an author and owner of his own advertising company? Chris knew what to do to take the teachings public. Max said okay to all this I'm sure so he in fact chose to become a businessman. He is now teaching on a bigger scale and touring different countries. He has certified teachers and is creating more. He has created other small business because these teachers are teaching to others and are also earning a living. There is nothing wrong with any of this. Everyone is entitled to make a living. It's just business. Max was always a businessman because he was married more than once and has a daughter I think I read somewhere? It's not a sign or measure of a bad person or teacher to be a businessman. It's not something I use to measure a good teacher or a healer. However, if it ticks someone off for me to say this, if they make too much of a fuss then I have to wonder if the person making a fuss has somehow elevated someone way to high and maybe put them on a pedestal because they don't want to associate business with spirituality. It's just life and it's just business. Simple. Santiago is a businessman, so is Max so were and are a lot of other great spiritual leaders. Take it all in and it's reasonable. Joe.

Agreed, because it removes choice. Joe.