thelerner

Impressive video, I admire your down to earth explanations and clear writing.

I find discussing the Hu Hua Ching is a bit like using the Book of Mormon to argue Christian theology.. this is what Jesus said to the American Indians in the third bible etc., Its not that its necessarily wrong, or lacks wisdom, its just not widely accepted as being as authentic. Because so many people (me included) doubt its authorship is the same as the TTC, it has to stand on its own and not be used as 'true quotes' from Lao Tzu. People, maybe wise ones, probably put his name on it to authenticate there views. Back on track. Enlightened is a loaded concept and too often discussions of it wind up in 'how many angels on a pin' territory. I think the main divide is whether we should think of 'The Enlightened' in terms of supermen/demi-god status- with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Or whether they're still just people, special maybe, but just..Awakened. I think Vmarco and many others believe the demigod theory. I don't. I enjoy listening to the zen inspired talks of Michael McAllister @ infinitesmile.com. He's had teachers and met with others who are considered enlightened, at least by there respective sects. Enlightened through decades of dedication, decades of sitting, mental, physical and spiritual, hard consistent work. They made it, and have penetrating intelligence, insight and flow. No super powers, the slings and arrows of life hit them, and they take it gracefully. They're definitely human, they cut wood, carry water. Its a zen thing, but zen is credited (correctly I believe) with more systematic 'enlightenments' then most systems. Maybe I set a low bar for enlightenment, I don't think showing off Siddhis are proof to it, maybe the experience of Satori is. I think its possible in this lifetime, but takes effort, surrender, grace. If it was easy everyone would have it , but its beyond intellectualisms; it has to cut bone deep. Those who'll reach it probably concentrate less on the concept of enlightenment and more on the concept of purity.

As long as you brought up honesty. Its not that the quotes are bad but I'm glad you said purportedly. Even if we start off agreeing Lao Tzu existed the Hua Hu Ching was written hundreds of years after his (alleged) death. So to be pure we'd have to deal with with the TTC. You've built a pyramid of logic, based on hand picking quotes translated into english (questionably?) from a source written hundreds of years after the writings based on a man who may be mythic. But, who cares, wisdom of taoism aside, your argument is 'We don't, indeed can't know anything', with the caveat unless your enlightened and there your definition includes bringing fish to life and having them swim away through the air. A standard few or none have ever reached. Your argument can used to shut down all discussions. Ultimately chop wood, carry water..enlightened or not. Do what you're doing mindfully. Philosophy may start in the mouth or the rare end, no matter. There's wood to chop and water to carry, do it and relax completely knowing it is done.

Hmnn, uh, if I pull the needles off any old conifer/evergreen and boil it up for tea, am I safe? Or is a species by species thing, some are edible, even good tasting, others are poisonous? Going further, I pick out a random evergreen, I take it I should use newer, greener needles? Thanks Michael

Excellent, I particularly like the last paragraph, but have trouble with the indifference to others in the one before it (i), which shows my distance from the Way.

I'm by no means an expert but a simple series might interest you. There is a series of exercises on abardoncompanion.com called the Archaeous series. They're Rawn Clarks take on elemental theory; for 15 minutes you stack the elements to your body. Waist down is earth, stomach to solar plex is water, chest region air, head heat/sun/awareness. He takes it slowly and you stack the elements. Each element is matched with its qualities, i.e. earth being strength, stability, calm, relaxed, stoic. It gives a very good feeling of solidarity. I consider it downwards because your feet, legs, pelvis is earth, on which everything rests, the basis for your strength. I like to do them standing up. As the series moves on he adds hermetic elements to it, but the basic first level is very nice. With many energetic meditations its easy to leave energy stuck up high. This places an emphasis physically and mentally on the whole lower section. If nothing else, the 15 minutes of standing Zhan Zhang is a decent downward style method in itself, and listening to the exercise makes it go by quickly. Rawn has a couple of innovative programs on his site. All free, most go very deep. Yours Michael

Whoa, Headiness, you've got a strong agenda and filter everything through it. We get it, your anti meditation. If any one says anything positive about it, you'll say something exaggerated like..'Well if you were falling out of a plane without a parachute, how would that help?! It wouldn't would it??!! See, I'm So Right.' Meditation has been widely studied. It tends to help people and no its not a substitute for medicine or uranium and what not. If people over do it or are particularly energy sensitive they can get in trouble, in which case they need to slow down. What heals/helps can also hurt. That tends to be a universal principle for any practice. Meditation runs the gamut from really listening to a great piece of music to empty sitting through various energy meditations..etc. It can be a great practice improving health, mind, body and spirit. Its not everyones cup of tea. There are many wonderful arts to try, yet at there very best whether music, art, sport .. at there very best, a person performs in a meditative state. So why not begin there and let it spread out naturally to what one does in all aspects of life? my 2 bits

The initial quote is from Goebbels (originally wrote Goering for some reason, info is correct) I'm not sure how much we'd want to follow the 'wisdom' of a man who committed suicide at 47, right after ordering a dentist (I think) to kill off his 6 kids. I think the lesson is- be wary slapping blanket condemnation on any whole group. Fight against policies, actions and ideas, not against groups. Often inside the group itself is the most powerful agent for change, and once you've smeared them you lose the ability to dialog and find common ground. There are exceptions to this, some groups are extreme, but the vast majority are not, they simply fill a grey area. For what its worth, I'm a liberal and I survived working on the Chicago South Side for 20 years (if you consider the Pilsen area the south side). It wasn't always pretty, but it wasn't 'Mad Max' either. Matter of fact over the decades its gotten better. Life will rob, mug, and beat us. We have to be careful not to pick up prejudices along the way. Prejudices blind us, robs us of knowledge and opportunities. I think the psychopaths are the ones who live in a black or white universe. Its okay to insult, hurt, kill the other, cause they're on the black side. Maybe saints live in a white and white world. There's good or potential good everywhere. Course we're not saints and better safe then stupid. Live life cautiously, but not fearfully.

Red Phoenix is a very 'brain' based energy technique. You don't want energy trapped up there. Most people would probably have no problem, but some, those who are particularly energy sensitive or over do it, would. I think the 'secretiveness' is erring on the safe side. My 2 bits.

He might have the right idea. (maybe) But the correct mindset is to live according to your truth. If you passionately think something is wrong, and you participate in it every day, then you have an intellectual mindset and thats not the way, its cold and leads to problems because your not true to yourself. There are people, even here, I think Twinner, who live real real simply. It can be done and if Sushis thinks that is the way man should live, he should moving in that direction himself. Not all at once, but take steps in that direction; walk the talk. Philosophy is a dish best served warm and eaten each morning. Not to be stared at and hoping others will eat it first.

Qigong isn't just moving the hands and legs. You're working with yin and yang, as well element theory. You're pushing and pulling chi. Its hard to feel at first. It helps if you have a good teacher explain the energetics you and to see/feel them do a form live. There are times I've watched an martial arts expert do a kata. Sometimes its better to watch the audience then performers, because they will flinch and shift depending on where how the expert moves and where his focus is. I don't know what exactly what Chi is, but strong focused intent, moves people.

He passed away in 2007. I've listened to some of his later broadcasts. I got the impression this is what a slightly bitter person is like when they've become enlightened. Don't know how accurate that is, but its what came to mind watching his later videos. Enlightened, but grouchy!?

Personally, words and explanations- historical, semantic, logical, etc. is all guess work. (score one for Guatama) One of the reasons I meditate is to go to a place where I'll know. Know what?? Don't know yet, but I hope in deep deep quietness, I'll know ..something. When I get there The answer won't be in words or logic, it won't be third hand from texts ancient or new; by grace or true unfiltered sight or insight, I'll know.. something.

Rawn Clark made a meditation that nicely captures the idea of sealing the senses. Its called the Center of Stillness Meditation. It has you place your 5 senses plus thought and emotion into spheres that circle you. Pretty neat and its free at abardoncompanion.com. I've done isolation tanks a few times. Never got as far into it as I'd hoped. Michael

Looks like a good book. In a similar but more personal theme I like the book Pronoia. Here is a bit of an excerpt: "DEFINITION: Pronoia is the antidote for paranoia. It's the understanding that the universe is fundamentally friendly. It's a mode of training your senses and intellect so you're able to perceive the fact that life always gives you exactly what you need, exactly when you need it. OBJECTIVE OF PRONOIA: To explore the secrets of becoming a wildly disciplined, fiercely tender, ironically sincere, scrupulously curious, aggressively sensitive, blasphemously reverent, lyrically logical, lustfully compassionate Master of Rowdy Bliss. HYPOTHESES: Evil is boring. Cynicism is idiotic. Fear is a bad habit. Despair is lazy. Joy is fascinating. Love is an act of heroic genius. Pleasure is your birthright. Receptivity is a superpower. PROCEDURE: Act as if the universe is a prodigious miracle created for your amusement and illumination. Assume that secret helpers are working behind the scenes to assist you in turning into the gorgeous masterpiece you were born to be. Join the conspiracy to shower all of creation with blessings. GUIDING QUESTION: "The secret of life," said sculptor Henry Moore to poet Donald Hall, "is to have a task, something you devote your entire life to, something you bring everything to, every minute of the day for your whole life. And the most important thing is -- it must be something you cannot possibly do." What is that task for you?" That is to a large extent Pollyanna'ish stuff. Yet I think we need doses of it to keep centered. We are bombarded with a concentration of bad things happening all over the world. In the news media, what bleeds is what leads. Its an environment of psychic poisons and without something to clear our view, it bogs us down and we miss the millions of good things happening in the world and to us. In Mantak Chia, Michael Winns, KAP systems its considered very important to do 'smile' work. Energy flows better through a relaxed happy system. Doing esoteric meditations without a positive attitude increases the danger. People fall into paranoia. Ultimately its a middle road we strive for, but we often have to fuel optimism just to stay in the middle.

Good luck with that. So you'll be unhappy til all 7 billion people turn Hunter-Gatherers. You can only do, what you can do and thats alot. When will you take action? When will you live out your beliefs? Are you standing in the back of 7 billion person line and until they do what you say should, then you're not doing it either. If you think life should be simple, God bless you, many others do; and to their credit they live out there beliefs. Planned eco communities are out there. The Amish do, but beware, its damn hard work. You'll never be at peace if you preach one thing and live another. You're on the computer preaching about the evil of computers. You live by the fruits of technology and complain bitterly about it. Walk the walk, become a hunter gatherer. Do your research and start walking. Start with Walden and move on to modern migrant living. Be true to yourself and you'll be happier. Me I like Tech. I see Taoism as being in harmony with your environment. Using modern tools, but seeing value in the old ones. I have a veggie garden kept infront of the house. I'm proud to say its inspired others on the block. (Mother Earth simple square foot gardening). Have a car, its a hybrid. Made money using the Taoist principle of finding value in other people's garbage. The world will take care of itself, be mindful of yourself and your own life. According to you the world and its people are in deep doo doo. You're not alone, its been a bad recession and hard times globally. But its getting better. Globally, pollution wise, in my neck of the woods, the U.S. Midwest, its gotten amazingly better since the 60's when the great lakes were in danger of becoming 'dead' and one actually caught fire. Acid rain was devastating forests, cites lay under increasingly dense fogs of pollutants. We're not great, we may not even be good, but we've gotten better. Do what you can, live your truth, keep an open heart, don't make excuses, be true to yourself. If you preach the world should be Hunter Gatherers then become one. Its doable.

I show respect for nature every time I take a shit. Nature is the great recycler. I breath air for the plants, they use the air I exhale, My piss ultimately feeds the plants that feed the animals, that creates the whole water cycle. I'm part of nature, my shit, spit, and piss are part of it, inseparable. I can't eat my computer and you can't eat rocks, but the tech in my slow cooker and oven help me cook dozens of times more efficiently then I could with a wood fire, which we all know is inefficient and highly polluting. It could also be said in the absence of Technology odds are my grandfather and likely yours wouldn't be born. Do you respect the computer you're using right now?? If not shut it off, don't be hypocrite. Do you respect the light & heat source you're using right now?? Don't want to feed the system, don't use electricity. Personally I think its best to use it, conservatively, its all about efficiency. You mentioned food. Unless you're growing it yourself, your using 1,000 pieces of technology to create and deliver it to your plate. I'm thankful for nature, I love and exploit the bitch. She's a powerful idea, the ultimate recycler and life giver. She has my respect. I respect Tech too. Cause its an idea and a tool. Proper use lets me expand every sense and improve my life vastly. Life is good. Part of it attitude. I have kudos for those who try to make the world better, but less for would be doomsday prophets. History, the world was worse in the 60's with acid rain, threat of nuclear annihilation. Much worse in the 40's with a world war and millions dying, horrors of war, mass starvation & cities going up in flames. Talk about poison- in the 1800s and half the 1900's the water people drank was often dirty, possibly poisonous. No modern filtration, Epidemics, even plagues were a norm. Typhoid, polio, tuberculosis, malaria, small pox, these were common and every decade or so saw waves where the population was 'culled' by 10%. I'm talking relatively modern times, don't get me started on the Middle ages. You think its bad because you don't know what the world was like. You overly idealize it and conceive of the past as Eden. What time period would you go back too? Cavemen? Good news. You can do it, grab your stuff go, live off the land. Have a toothache, cut yourself, no soup or antibiotics for you. You die, no medicine tech. Sweet Mother Earth has scoured almost all life from Earth many times. She's Momma, but she can be a deadly bitch. Tech can as easily be mankinds savior as its destructor, but we don't need much tech to kill each other. Its the same old story, tools give us potential. The wise use them well. The foolish fear them. Don't blame the tools. I think my kids will have more possibilities then most other generations. They'll do best if they respect and use tools available and take lessons from Nature. But then, Nature uses technology, indeed Nature and Technology are two very powerful ideas. ya da yada

I like this answer. I can't say I'm nature boy, but I do the easy stuff; long walks, creating a vegetable garden, mulching, keeping an eye on the skies, feeling the direction of the wind. There are some great magazines out; Mother Earth, Urban Farming, Backpacking. My library has back issues and you can take them out for a week, packed with info and inspiration. Still reading only goe so far. Robaire is right, traveling and forcing yourself to do is the way to grow.

There's not many of them, but there is a podcast called 'The Golden Flower Podcast'. Its free, somewhat self promoting, but has some interesting thoughts by someone who's gone through it.

Chill . Follow your own advice. Find a cave, live off the land. Don't even think of reproducing. Nothing wrong with that. But be aware its incredibly arrogant to tell other people how they should live (note I'm telling you to live by your creed, away from evil tech). Ever since we jumped out of trees there have been doom sayers. Always will be. Change happens; people will always use the resources available to them, as resources come and go we will adapt. There will always be people who absolutely Know the right way to live and Tell others how it should done and preach a doctrine of damnation to those who won't listen.

IMO, Show respect for the sides, but don't be afraid of picking one. Sometimes they're right and often thats where where the fun is. Wishy washy is boring.

"In the courtyard of a Buddhist monastery. The cynic Sage, nearly naked, was seated on the ground eating fish. As the meal went on, he put down the fish's backbones beside him. However, in order not to defile his cast purity, Naropa was on the point of passing by at some little distance from the eater, when a monk started to reproach Tilopa for parading his lack of compassion for the animals, that is, killing and eating the fish, in the very premises of a Buddhist Monastery; and ordered him to leave at once. Tilopa did not even condescend to answer. He muttered some words, snapped his fingers and the fish bones were again covered with flesh. The fishes then moved as if living and swam away through the air as if it was water. No vestige remained of the cruel meal on the ground." Hmnnn.. Describing Tilopa as one of the last masters and repeating a story about how he could eat a fish, then if someone makes him angry, snap his fingers and have it come alive and swim away(in the air). I am skeptical about these stories. I know they're repeated and give great credence to whatever religion they're based on, but dedicated hard core practitioners can't reproduce these miracles. The ones who've spent there lives in deep study and practice simply can't don't or won't display them when asked. It might be the stories are wrong and to draw your philosophy from them will lead to a dead end. How many people here think they will get so powerful that they can eat a fish, snap there fingers and turn it into super fish? Plus Tilopa seems like a dope in the first place for eating the fish in a monastery that forbids it. Perhaps he could have magicked up some veggies to share and not been so grumpy. From the story he doesn't seem so much a 'master' as magical. And self mastery is hard, magic.. I don't know. I get the feeling 'magical' things can often be done mundanely far easier. Real skills can be learned. Good philosophy makes your life better. Fantasies have you chase after illusion. Sometimes thats not bad, but there are real skills to pick up in this life, chasing the Siddhis, is not probably not the way, though if they come as a side effect, fine. Personally I think there are many masters in the world. But, I don't see performing magic tricks as a litmus test. Compassion and self mastery are though.

So, here's the quote, "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real"...Buddha. Its a recognized quote, but I can't find the original source, not sure if its from a Sutra, legend, etc. I always like to know if the person is addressing someone's specific question and what the situation around the quote may be. Unless there's a sutra or scriptural reference I find people throw around 'Buddha said'..like he was their personal shrink. In any case. What do you think about it? Vmarco quoted it to back up existentialist reasoning, ie nothing exists, its all illusion. I have problems with that, but as the thread its in suggests we shouldn't hold too tightly to beliefs. How do you interpret it? And as a bonus, where is it from and what circumstance? Thanks Michael

You sound like a Butter Praline kind of guy

I'm not rattled, I just think such quotes lack the authority of those in the Sutras. Misuse of quotes is huge; people take them out of context or just make them up. In this case its murky, most people would assume its from Guatama, or at least another historical recognized Buddha. So its not from a Sutra its just one of those that floats around and can be from all or no Buddha personages. If its a litmus then I'm on the side of those who like their quotes from real people. I have great admiration for those who quote the Buddha and then back it up with a Sutra. I find your top people can, wannabes have no idea of the where, who and whens of there quotes, they use'em like scotch tape to back up ideas. Still its a thought provoking quote, and I'd say existential one, ie 'the the world is but an illusion'. Seems more Hindu then Buddhist, but then Buddhist philosophy has gone in many directions over time and absorbed other other cultural beliefs. Often people aren't they're just picking from different sources. I prefer my Buddhism simple and rational; focused on the here and now, not on the supernatural. As I've thought about it, I'd say the world is real, dismiss it at great risk to life and limb, Our thoughts are the illusion. Because they're so close and intimate to our psyche we think of them as facts, as us. When they're just transient jumbles of memory and expectation. Its the illusions of mind we shouldn't take seriously, not the reality of the world. For example: I hate butter praline ice cream is the illusion, the chocolate cone infront of me is not.