thelerner

Denty, you spent last night going over my old posts and personal forum thread looking for ammunition and then say I lead a boring life. Man. This diversion started because someone had a minor disagreement with you and called them a geek and said they should get balls. They weren't attacking you, they just disagreed. You try to win the argument(that doesn't exist) with school yard intimidations of calling names and getting personal. That is your pattern and its a bad one. The point, the heart of this site is communication. Being right is secondary, we're here to learn and connect. Thats why I like Live Chat so much, its pretty unique to this site. To be communicating live with someone in North Carolina, Arizona and China at the same time still blows my mind. If memory serves me right, here is where come in with a passive aggressive reply of how sorry you are for me..yada yada yada yada. Michael

I'm there

I don't think its us. I honestly think its you. There are times your writing is bizarrely obnoxious. Almost every thread ends with you calling people names, being aggressive or passive aggressive and giving the you 'poor naive practitioners' speech. My therapy is talking to friends and getting reality checks. You may want to try this non invasive procedure. If you're constantly pissing on and pissing off people here, it must flow into your real life. If you find yourself being 'unfairly attacked' all the time, look at how you react to things. In the famous words of Philosopher Ian, 'I am the problem'. I haven't replied to any of your posts for weeks, probably months. Any inspiration for flames is not due to me. I don't like political correctness and the point of these discussions is disagreement, its a good thing. When you see me online give a PM. I'm sure we agree on more then we disagree about and our problems are 1. The difference between the house holder, slacker bum zen practitioner (me) and the hard core, dedicated, righteous practitioner like yourself. Yours Michael

SeanD, its amazing how most of the threads you're involved in end up w/ you flaming people. Most people here are pretty mellow. There must a way for you to communicate without feeling attacked or going on the attack. sigh Michael

I'd hate for this to become a mud fest on Michael Winn. Here's my 2 cents on the man. I've only taken one class w/ him and seen him during another session. I like him. He doesn't play the guru. He was always accessible(So were all the teachers there). Answered anything put to him, ate w/ the us, wouldn't drink w/ us but you can't have everything. There was a session withs a group meditation. The lunch bell rang, everyone got up and left, but I was in a good place and stayed seated. Later when I opened my eyes, Winn was still there sharing the meditation with me, unasked. I found that very impressive. I was at Tao Mountain when Ron Diana died and I spied Winn doing the Primordial TaiChi. He's by no means a great TaiChi player, but there was power, passion and depth within his movement, which I believe he was dedicating to Ron. There's an unusual litmus test for testing a master, its 'How well does he get along with his wife'. I liked the way he kissed his wife, casually but with feeling. In my book he passed that test. His CD's and courses might be considered expensive, but he also has free get togethers at his house. I don't think he's in it for the money and if he has several limo's he hides them well. Maybe he is 'Neo' taoist, but I think he's read more, met more, hosted more masters then most. His knowledge on the history and application of alchemical taoism modern and ancient is encyclopedic. I think he's a good teacher and there's not whole lot of them out there teaching this esoteric stuff. No teacher is for everyone, and this I'm sure people taking the same class leave with wildly different feelings. Michael

I agree w/ Gold. The great ones are the masters of accepting what is. No particular power beyond that. They just do what they're doing. They live and die like the rest of us, but they live unafraid and in the moment. Michael

"i'm sorry, but what the fuck does the chattering mind have to do with anything, let alone taoism???" I'd say it has to do w/ everything. IMHO a chattering mind is impediment #1. It splits our attention, destroys concentration, pulls us directions we don't want to go. Dareback poses an important question. In the midst of void is there bliss? I don't know. Peace certainly, a feeling of everything is fine, nothing is needed. That's what I feel when I'm deep into emptiness meditation. Never had bliss or satori, not yet. It may not be my way. A few here have experienced B & S. From what they've told me its temporary, but its echoes inform there lives. Michael

My old teacher Sensei Eley had amazing fudoshin. He'd do the tricks of having a 8 or 9 people press against him while he sat or stood. Even several standing on one foot, or pressing perpendicularly against a raised bokken. He had one example where he'd pick up the middle of a jo (wooden staff) w/ one finger and have two people try to force him back by pushing against it. He loved touchless throws, but they were a combination of 'connecting' to the attacker and self preservation. IE if you didn't go down, you'd be hit by his oncoming hand. That hand held the force of his body, it wouldn't move, you would. We, his student would fall touchlessly, others like some Judo players would be knocked senseless. He also had that Aikido calm down pat. He'd place two attackers, strangers w/ martial art experience, in one case I recall both karate brown belts, one in front, one behind and have them attack how they wanted, when they wanted. I assume any one w/ decades of training could defend themselves in that situation, but could they do w/ such perfect calm? Aikido Master Saotome was also phenomenal not just for his moves, but his calm, his wah, his presence. I've seen films of Satome facing a freestyle 3 man knife randori, relaxed and seemingly happy facing multiple blade and continuous blade attacks. (Also had the honor of attending a knife seminar w/ him) I'm not saying these guys are the end all, be all fighters, but their calm power, before during and after an attack was inspiring. Michael

Don't know if you'll ever see this but.. I enjoy your Zenish points of view and the clarity with which you express them. Michael

In many ways a good charlatan is better then a great enlightened teacher. First they often communicate better and on your level. Two, while they a charlatan may be expensive, a great enlightened teacher might have you chuck all of your stuff or at least make you feel its meaningless. Three a skilled Charlatan is grounded in new age, pop psychology and a smattering of old world traditions vs the enlightened teacher who only knows a single traditions. So the Charlatan will (often) immediately have you feeling good, whereas an enlightened teacher should have you immediately feeling bad (ie. not only do you 'know' nothing, the 'you' is really not you and is not good at all). Four, the methods of the Charlatan can actually work very very well. Plus they change there methods so often that they are bound to connect w/ a huge mass of people. Also I find any practice done sincerely and long enough can have a profound effect on the person who does it. The ultimate Charlatan was Osho(Castaneda a close second). He wrote a huge number of books on every possible new age subject. All the books were good though many contained contradictory information. He was well loved though rumored to abuse and sometimes kill wayward believers. People in his presence reported he clearly had "Something..It..Juice" but he was also addicted to drugs and suffered a variety of ailments psychological and otherwise. Most who learned from him and his books swore by them and there were many who would later swear at him. As easy a target as he was, beware. Was the founder of your system a Charlatan(Moses, Christ, Buddha)? Hard to say, we didn't learn at their knee. Even if we did its hard to escape a high energy persons charisma. Success turns Charlatans into ..?.. messiahs? Michael

Gotta take care of the body, its where I live. Besides I look to it as a microcosm of the Macrocosm. A big part of what I want is to feel nature's power and abundance echoing within my body, become more aware of the interplay of the elements within. Michael

DNA, DNA, dna We need cheek swabs from both of your instructors. Then we need to dig up their illustrious ancestors. Then a simple comparison, no problem. If Khan's tomb hasn't been found we just need to dig up his brother or sister. M.

10 o clock my time. I'll head to live chat for a bit and practice my typing skills. Michael

Too bad, had a nice conversation w/ Lozen. We could have made it menage Tois Michael

I agree with Wayfarer, The old texts are important and informative, but not gospels. There is a liquidity and freedom to taoism that refuses the 'This is ..' and 'That is..'s' that the mind want to label. I think there is more insight from the person who uses simple monosyllable words to explain something then from the person who pulls up a 400 year old quote (that learning is of value, but for me, less). Michael I think Darebak hits a neccessary(?) weakness in the HT system when he says the first and most important step in practice is to go a few hours a day with a quiet mind. Its hard to sell a book which says, Ch.1 quiet your mind for a minute, practice and come back in a week. Ch. 2. Quiet your mind for 5 minutes, come back in a month. Ch. 3... Westerners wouldn't put up with it, so the books written for the masses don't get into it as seriously as they should. You do hear it when you see the teachers one on one.

Getting away from the mystical and into the experiential, I think it can be wise to translate Ki(chi) into intention. Moving, breathing, doing etc. with relaxed intention, that is the platform that we need to stand on. Michael

Hi Rainbow, The truth is out there, but me or them telling you doesn't mean squat. There are impressive things that can be learned. That said, living and enjoying life is the reason you're here. If you have the time and stomach for it, here is a loong 8 page 155 thread discussion on powers http://www.thetaobums.com/Looking-for-Proo...ties-t2668.html Michael

I'm reminded of Winter Misogi training at the St Louis Ki-Aikido center. After a long hard day of training we'd imbibe. Homemade liquors, dark beers etc. Stay up late. Next morning serious meditation and a long dip in a near frozen river. It doesn't sound all that healthy but it produced an intense awareness that would last for a day or two. On the long drive home my posture and attention would be perfect. Michael

This brings up the questions- Do you think it is accurrate and Are you happy with your number? I don't believe in astrology, but I like my sign, libra on the cusp of scorpio. Who knows maybe I'd 'fit' some other one better, but I do like the slightly edgy even handedness the sign implies. Michael

So many meditative traditions have practices where you start or end with thanking other beings, calling on other beings for help or virtue. I've always felt uneasy with that. Maybe its echoes of Judiasm that there is none other then G-d. Maybe its that I want to do it on my own. Maybe its that I don't believe in the 'other' and/or don't want to introduce an x factor into my unconscious, something that takes my perception from what Is, into projections of what I expect it/want it to be. Taoists see immortals, Christians see saints, Buddhists see Buddha etc. Our preconceptions color the light we see. Who do you thank and call on? And how do you see them? As spirit, ideal or unconscious aspect of your own mind? Michael

I am a 5, a Thinker. Works for me. In these tests I'm often middle of the road. Its unusual for me to be a 1 or 5. Michael

Lots of people on line. meet up live chat. Can't stay long myself, wife leaving for business trip. michael

What a Spring of new beginnings. Enjoy, have fun, Thanks for all the Things you've done Michael

When younger I was on the swim team and spent 10+ hours a week in a pool. Sure chlorine will make your eyes burn but that's what gogles are for. I think for most people its safe. Swimming is great exercise, jacuzzi's are wonderfully relaxing. Try it, see how you feel. If you're not sensitive, have fun splashing around. Millions do every day. Michael On the other hand, I have been meaning to see if olympic level swimmers died early due to extremely long time spent in chlorine. Course superior physical conditioning should mean longer lives. Later P.S. Did a web search, found Football players died young <50, no big surprise. Couldn't find anything on early death of swimmers. I did find this site - http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swimming/chlorine/chlorine.htm It did say heavy exercising >2 hours led to higher concentrations of various chlorinoids in blood. Much less for casual swimmers. Also a link to increased asthma risk for a small percent. One study had couple hundred kids who regularly swam in a pool with 100,000 times too much chlorine! Strangely there was some tooth enamel damage in 13% of them, but they were alive and kicking even after repeatedly exercising in water with such astronomically high rate. More pools are using Ozone for cleaning, outdoor pools made for lower chlorinated exposure and new products tend to be easier to measure and control.

Boom, that is the reason and aim(IMHO) for emptiness style meditation. Getting to the neutral point, hanging out with the soul. Michael