trenna1

Does anyone have a copy of the Kunlun book that they'd be willing to part with? I'd be more than happy to purchase it.

Thank you for a lively conversation. Best of luck.

Thank you for your teaching on composition, I'll try and prove myself worthy of recieving it. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if it weren't for legitimate lineages you wouldn't have the "principles" which you've been able to glean and manipulate into your gourmet meals. Yes there are of course apparent restrictions as with the personal codes of conduct, commandments, vinaya, etc. what you can and cannot do with the teaching as a student. But these are only restrictive to someone still deluded with the bondage of the ego. This in itself is also a method of seperating the wheat from the chaff if you will. Of course our first reaction to someone who trys to tell us, perfectly capable and independent adults what to do and how to do it is: piss off. But if there are men of high attainment who have dedicated their lives to studying the codes of conduct alone, don't you think they're worth a small amount of in depth probing to really find the mechanism under which they operate? You seem to be very... preoccupied with the individuals "rights" to do whatever he pleases with what he learns, so it strikes me as sort of ironic that you call the idea of a lineage "egoistic''. This troublesome "individual", this self is the reason we're in this mess (samsara) to begin with right? For clarification learning things presided over by a given lineage and joining a lineage are two very different things, you do not need to necessarily join a lineage to learn some of its highest level practices. In most cases you will simply be asked to honor the request for secrecy, the reason for which already having been explained. The Catholic comparison can hardly be abided, apples and oranges. The start of Catholicism in the fourth century marked the deterioration of any coherent transmission within that tradition. The principles are still there in part but mangled almost beyond recognition. To close yes, any genuine practice will start off very detailed and as one progresses the higher you go the simpler the practice gets, this is itself a universal principle. In short if you can't even get past your own ego how can you affect to grasp universal principle-truth is you're going to need those details for a while, to serve as a ladder to the utterly simple truth, hence the saying-if you're off by just a hairs breadth you end up missing by a thousand miles. "...Subhuti a bodhisattva who creates the perception of a being cannot be called a "bodhisattva". And why not? Subhuti, no one can be called a bhodisattva who creates the perception of a self or who creates the perception of a being, a life or a soul."

Hey everyone, This is my first post here in the main forum, I've been content up until now to kind of hang back but this has turned into a very interesting thread so... On the subject of money for teachings and specifically as it has been brought up by Mak Tin Si I'll sort of respond to goldisheavy's post which was well articluated but I believe only one side of the coin. This is definitely a touchy subject, whenever payment for teachings is mentioned people by and large seem to either wince quietly or decry loudly. I believe the point Mak Tin Si was trying to make (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is not that paying money is the only way to secure and legitimize the transmission of a given teaching, hardly. But contrary to some prior sugestions the teaching of a lineage is not dead or static but vital and sensitive, to imply that the transmission of a teaching through the cabal of a more or less accepted set of standards, ethics, theory, etc. that make up a lineage is necessarily mutually exclusive with creativity is a virtuoso display in lack of imagination and hence creativity. Since the time of the famous ancestors and patriarchs of Daoism (or Bhuddism for that matter) society has obviously changed by leaps and bounds, the mores and values of our societies, what shapes and molds peoples thought processes and subsequently their actions have also changed. Even so, amidst so much change some things remain the same, namely with relevance to our topic, the seach for liberation. The fact that we're here having this discussion at the moment is evidence of the dynamism of the traditions that have brought to our awareness through the fog of the centuries these much debated teachings. If they were not pliant in spirit as well as form they would have vanished into oblivion long ago without so much as a trace. Rigidity and stagnation equal death. Civilization the world over is no longer conducive to the sometimes slow, tedious and immensely arduous process that in ancient (and even not so ancient) times made up the transmission of a teaching, leaving aside any question of practicing and accomplishing anything. One had to prove oneself beyond a doubt to be trustworthy and capable. Which of us would be willing to serve a master hand and foot for 10 maybe 15 years or more just for the off chance of being thrown a bone? In all honesty in any group of thousands you could count them on one hand. Contrast that with today when there are several avenues of which I'm aware that most anyone if they are willing to part with x amount of whatever currency can recieve genuine knowledge which if used effectively can put one on the path to wherever you want to go. (Just as a disclaimer I'm not a member of any lineage, sect, church, temple, etc. nor am I a teacher) It's undeniable that because of this relatively recent phenomena- and granted many are not 100% legit- genuine principles and methods have reached and have the opportunity to reach more people than was ever possible a few hundred years ago. There have been a few notorious gurus in recent memory but if someone just wanted to get rich there are much simpler and more straight forward ways of doing so. On the issue of karma I personally am certainly not at the level of speaking definitively about my own karma not to mention anyone else's but, if we think of karma, and to complete the dichotomy, of De in terms of science then the law of conservation of energy (which both karma and De are a form of) yeilds an elegant yet simple picture. A common thread through all spritual traditions is the idea of sacrifice, simply enough because sacrifice is the most efficient means to attack the ego directly and thus combat karma and convert it into De or merit (just for the sake of simplicity). These are not just moral ideas of good and bad, blame and virtue as commonly understood. Think of ice melting back into water... we only have one use for ice but many different uses for water. If money is such a motivating force, even when the basic necessities are well taken care of, so that we'll toil long even absurd hours to get more then why shouldn't money serve as an expedient substitute for years of dedication just to bring the threshold into view. I'm sure we'd all agree that time is infinitely more precious than money, so are we not more fortuante than our predecessors in that we have such opportunities? As far as secrecy goes lets go back to "the transmission" itself and what is at the core of many- the Ching/Jing (commonly translated as classic). The idea as I've encountered it: First, any work that truly merits the apellation "Ching" is not something that some guy just decided he was going to write one day to get some of his ideas out, to express himself or inspire people, whatever the case may be. So to presume to "improve" outright change or produce your own such work is indeed patently absurd (the same goes for the principles and methods that will eventually come down through it's appearance) this has nothing to do with literary ambition. These Ching are what lineages are founded upon. Once you understand this principle the words "In the beginning was the word..." will take on a whole new meaning. Such works are not simply words upon a page, at their most mundane they show a Way and the idea is to almost literally penetrate into a text until the practitioner and the "text" in it's original form are indistiguishable. One of the most if not the most important considerations when it comes to the question of secrecy is the integrity of the teaching. Let's face it many don't like to hear it but these things do not rely solely on human endeavor and longing. Now matter how long you experiment whether it be your entire life or many aeons if you're not hooked into a source, a wellspring you won't simply "figure it out'' piece things together and from your efforts become enlightened, liberated, immortal, what have you. True creativity will manifest once you make certain accomplisments in a Way, otherwise you're playing with the branches to the detriment of the root. There are countless pitfalls on the way to enlightenment- with the rare exception- how can you find your way without someone who's been there. There is not a fundamentalist bone in my body, but some things really are mandated by Heaven. Every time a genuine teaching is exposed to a new person a risk is being taken, towards the teaching itself and all those who could benefit and by the master who gives the transmission. Chang Po Tuan himself was punished several times for not being careful in this respect. If a teaching is corrupted enough over time by careless hands the energy at its source, what gives it its efficacy will be taken back and then the teaching will be dead. A great loss. So the need for secrecy is not a clique like attitude of exclusion, it's kept secret so that it may be around for you to learn it one day. Physical science, for all the good it's done is only phenomenal, in relation it only deals with blips on the surface how can the two be compared?

Hello all, I'm not really brand new to the forum I've been here for a few months or so just observing, following up a few points of interest. Just thought it was about time I make myself known. Thanks.