Zhongyongdaoist

Dee and Kelly found it wouldn't work. See this excerpt from the Liber Resurrectionis, April 30, 1586: You can read more here: Blog on Dee and Kelly Of course this is written off as just more of Kelly's 'cozening' conjuring tricks, but who knows. One of the amazing things about this material is how much of it actually survived. According to Elias Ashmole a servant of one of the previous owners had: Yet there still seems to survive almost the whole system.

I think as far as Enochian goes, everyone already knew that was a system by someone else: Actually in the original Golden Dawn in the 1890s, few people, if any, may have recognized it and it may not have been attributed to Dee and Kelly. Apropos of this, there was the Naure's Finer Forces mini-scandal when some members complained that some of Philosophus Grade instructions were an unatributed precis of this work, written by Rama Prased and published by the Theosophical Society. All I ask is could he have not mentioned "hey I changed a few things here"? : Those weren't changes, they were divine revelations. (heavy irony smiley face)

Regardie himself says in the Golden Dawn that the Golden Dawn Liber H is a transcription of Sloane 307, The Golden Dawn, Book One, Vol. 1, p. 85 (Third Edition, 1970). Dr. Thomas Head, well known as an authority, had been kind enouth to give me a copy of the Liber H in the mid 1970s and when I requested the Enochian microfilms from the British Library in the late 70s Sloane 307 was on the list. It is an anonymous manuscript in a very legible Italic hand and was much easier to read than the Enochian originals in their Secretary hand. Judging by the contents the author only had access to the True and Faithful Relation. He misreads the section in the True and Faithful Relation on the attributes of the lesser angles and this mistake is repeated in the Golden Dawn usage, compare The Golden Dawn, Book 2, Vol. 4, p. 327(Third Edition, 1970) to Turner's treatment in Elizabethan Magic, p. 68 (Element Books, 1989), based on Dee's orignal transcription. Frederick Hockley apparently had Sloane 307 copied in the middle of the Nineteenth Century, and this may explain the Golden Dawn's using it. I take Sloane 307 to be late Seventeenth Century and one of the curious things about it is that, rather then being merely notes, it seem to be written like instructions. I thought at the time it might have been written as instructions for a small group or something trying to practice in the Seventeenth Century from material in the True and Faithful Relation The 666s in Rudd appear because of misreading the Secretary hand 'b', a mistake which could not be made by someone with access to the Tabula Bonorum and enough smarts to make the connection.

He claimed to be a reincarnation of Kelly.

To go back and quote from the Wikipedia article: In the Golden Dawn and earlier traditions the Abyss was the abode of the Qliphoth, the abode of 'evil' spirits and the usages derive ultimately from the Greek concept of Tartarus where the Titans were imprisioned, thus my earlier reference to Hades and Tartarus. Hades is simply the abode of the dead, run by a respectable Olympian, Zeus' brother, Tartarus is the abode of 'cosmic' criminals, confined because they would mess up everything. The whole matter is very complex, both historically and in terms of the Golden Dawn's teaching on the matter. Right now I don't have time to say much more about this background. Orignally the abyss was certainly not something that you 'went through', it was something that you passed over or around somehow and falling into it would have been considered to be like falling into a cosmic cesspool. Crowley introduced his approach to it because he wanted to at least claim the grade of Magus, the second of the grades beyond the abyss, so that he could claim to be 'Magus of the New Eon' and for that reason, he had to get accross the abyss. Depending on ones attitude to Crowley, it is spiritual insight or a manifestation of his megalomania.

Well, as long as we are going to be picky here, the 'plagiarism' started in the Seventheenth Century. Mathers would have been better off if he had read The True and Faithful Relation, as it is the Golden Dawn Adeptus minor curriuclum is based on Sloane 307, a Seventeenth Century transcript which introduces a confusion about attributes of the lesser angles which is reproduced in the Golden Dawn material. The Golden Dawn liber 'H' is pretty much a transcription of this manuscript. Also, he read a work from the pair of Dr. Rudd and Peter Smart, Harley 6482, which introduces the Goetic spirits to the Table of Practice. Mathers did get most of the systme, there was also more of if in higher grades then was published by Regardie in his original work on the Golden Dawn system.

Enochian magic has nothing to do with Crowley. It came about centuries before he was even conceived: Exactly the same could be said about Qabalah, but I know that are particularly sensitive about Enochian magic, as am I also, but I was rushed, as usual, and didn't observe the nicities like: The Abyss, Crowley inspired Pseudo-Qabalistic Interpretaion The Abyss, Crowley inspired Pseudo-Enochian Magic Interpretation There, happy now? We can leave it to Nungali to come post a vociferous defense of Crowley when he comes on.

As a general piece of information, the 'abyss' and 'crossing the abyss' have a very specific technical meaning in Modern Western Magic, particularly that derived from Aleister Crowley and his law of Thelema, or those teachings which are inspired by his work, but not specifically Thelemic. Here are too links which may help explain it better: The Abyss Qabalistic Interpretaion The Abyss Enochian Magic Interpretation Both of which basically derive from Aleister Crowley. Dark nights of the sould are more like the "mini abyss" which BaquaKickass mentions. She knows all this of course, she is just doing some rethinking. Always a good thing.

Hell of a question. I can understand that and sympathize. I don't have much time to reply to this now, but from a traditional point of view, conceptually, this is a mess: It's not your fault, it has more to do with changes in usage and things like that. Basically Hades as the underworld, is not Tartarus, the abyss. Well, you asked for it, and you got the short version, on a positive note: I agree with you about this and this is the point at which purely personal problems should be integrated, after that one still needs a lot of work before one can approach the 'cosmic' abyss. The people gave you your pet peeve, obviously did not do very well with this one.

I was just quoting the source as is, but here is Wierus on the subject: So, while Wierus denies its authenticity, he notes that it may 'very justly be added', enough approval for me to be willing to take it seriously, if not as profound an authority as the established Three Books.

Thank you Nungali, for expressing you appreciation. I hope that other people have benefited from these posts as well, though they hardly scratch the surface of the matter. I have been very busy since writing the above, almost to the point of not having time to post on anything, so this discussion has languished in my absence. From what I can see, 'BaquaKicksAss', who started it apparently had found herself too busy to follow through as she hoped. For myself I had not planned of writing at length about Agrippa, but only thought to provide some necessary Religious background. I have had some ideas about how I might continue, but following up on them would take more time than I have at the moment to devote to this. In the short term that does not seem likely. For those who are interested in Agrippa and might want to have free copies of his work I did find this: The site above has a lot of interesting material, also Joseph Peterson's site, Twilit Grotto, from which I have liberally quoted, has a lot of useful information online and a very useful reference CD for sale, on which Agrippa and much more can be found.

Regarding the number 72, warned of the 'Three Disasters' which can destroy an immortal, the Monkey King requests teachings from the Master: So yes, there is a tradition in China involving the number 72 and the search for immortality. While Journey to the West is fiction, I think there is mention of this in Ge Hong's Baopuzi.

That's why you would have to be a member, but they could at least recover that information.

This is from the debate on a Mo Pai forum that took place in our 'Bums Town Hall': Unfortunately the original cannot be accessed by non-members, but what I had basically suggested is using a PPF to data mine the Tao Bums Mo Pai threads. To a certain extent SonOfTheGods has done this, but has included material that seems to make this thread controversial, his goodwill in the matter not withstanding. So I recommend that those members who consider themselves advocates of 'orthodox' Mo Pai to do just that, set up your own PPF, if you don't have one already, maybe each his or her own, if that seems good, using that division of labor to multitask might be very helpfu, mine away, dig deep, and then use that as the basis of a thread that more clearly puts forward their position.

All humor aside, I appreciate the work and thought that you are putting into this project.

All good points, in the late 60s once I got over my dismay at women burning their bras, I realized that the roles and limitations placed on women at the time were ridiculous and demeaning, but it also opened my eyes to a similar situation with male roles, ever since I have thought of the whole issue in terms of Gender Liberation, and the possibility of someone experiencing themselves and their full potential outside of socially prescibed norms.

How about 'Taoist Energy Arts Study and Practice Forum', I don't really like using 'energy' for qi, but it sounds better, in several ways, than the translation you sometimes run accross in Aaupuncture books published in China, where it would be 'Taoist Gas Arts Study and Practice Forum', which might be taken to mean the fine points of flatulence: One of France's National Treasures

This may have been during your absence:

A chicken in every cauldron?

While I don't usually follow people's posts here, the question that was asked was bascially could it be done, not whether it could be abused. I believe we already have an 'anti-stalking' policy here and if the ability to follow was abused, then it should be reported and the mods should step in. I see some benefit in such a feature, even if I might not use it, so I will ask again can something like this be done and further if it can should be bring it up in the town hall?

This can be subitled Hermetism, Qabalah, Rosicrucianism, Ceremonial Magic, Occultism and more: These are some of the possible subtitles. An example would be: - Western Esoteric Traditions {formerly Hermetic and Occult}: Western Mysticism and Magic, such as Hermetism, Qabalah, Rosicrucianism, Ceremonial Magic, Occultism and more - Other Traditions: Covers western philosophy, logic and reason, etc: I would simply drop this. The reason being, that as I have said Western Esoteric Traditions have reason at their core, whether people realize that or not and almost every Western Philosophy, except the late Roman Epicurianism of Lucretius, which became the basis of modern materialism, can at least be brought in, insofar as it can be, if it contributed to these esoteric traditions, or or provides context for understanding them, it can be brought in, otherwise it would be excluded and what other traditions are we then concerned with? I also don't think it would get much posted in it, or much attention in general. It would amount to wasted cyber-space and possible increase clutter.

One reason why I dislike this is because, Western Philosophy in the form of Plato and Aristotle and their descendants run through the whole of all of Western 'mysticism, esoteric, magic, and religion, etc'. For example, it is very easy to find ideas that are common to Middle Platonism in the Hermetica, how much does one find of 'The Book of the Dead'? The same holds for 'Gnostic' Christianity and is common to other Hellenistic 'neo' traditions, so much so that the standard scholarly take on these is that they are culturally adapted popular manifestations of Platonism. Also logic and reason are a fundamental part of these Western Traditions, it is only events taking place in period from 1750 to 1850 which associate reason and logic almost exclusively with materialism, whereas, especially Plato, but also Aristotle, were at great pains to use reason and logic to banish the early Greek atomist schools and were so successful that they are vilified by modern materialists. It is already defacto a mixed bag, and one with so many posts on such a wide set of topics that attempting to separate them leads to too many small bags. So on a practical level a title that represents this mixed bag status may be warrented. That is why I favor 'Western Traditions', with the option of making it 'Western Esoteric Traditions', as at least some type of filter. This would allow a challenge to say, a Christian fundamentalist rant, but allow Gnosticism, and the same goes for Sufism within Islam. It should be remembered that there are only a handful of members who post here regularly and a few more handfuls of people who follow it. This leads to a form of self limitation, that has kept the forum more or less on track, though it long ago went outside the limits implied by 'Hermetic/Occult'. Finally, there are people who come here as guests and do read these posts, which means that a good purpose overall is being served by the forum.

Yes, one might almost say, anything that contributed to the Cultural content of the Roman Empire during the Hellenistic Age or was later derived from these influences would constitute 'Western' in the sense I am aiming at. It should also include the 'shamanic' background to all of these things. This would probably be all inclusive enough.

When the idea that became the 'Hermetic/Occult' section was proposed I never liked calling it 'Hermetic', which is only part of a larger set of interrelated traditions. At the time I suggested Western Esoteric Traditions, or even simply Western Traditions. This can be subitled Hermetism, Qabalah, Rosicrucianism, Ceremonial Magic, Occultism and more and tagged in various ways, but if you look at the content it is far broader than just Hermetism. At this time none of these topics have been developed enough to merit further subdivisions. It should be born in mind that the Abrahamic religious traditions have been an important part of these, as well as the traditional Pagan religious systems. Even Theosophy, while it certainly has drawn on Indian traditions, is rather more of a repackaging of these by and for Westerners and has been extremely influential in the development modern Western 'occultism'.

Yes, maybe I will make use of it and maybe I won't, but I do have some ideas, so why not. PPF please and advance thank you. ZYD