Zhongyongdaoist

I really wasn't quit done with 'To the Reader', but I am glad that people are taking an interest and have brought up Marsilio Ficino, anticipating Trithemius' advice, while you can find the 'vulgar secrets' here: Wikipedia on Marsilio Ficino you need to go here for the 'secret and higher': Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on Marsilio Ficino In order to understand Agrippa and what he is trying to do, you need to understand Western Christianity as Agrippa did, in other words the Roman Catholic Church as it existed in 1500, not 1600, certainly not 1800 and definitely not 2000, no in 1500, the Roman Catholic Church was very different and that is why Agrippa thought that he could write a defense of Magic that would redeem it in the eyes of Western Europe, that is why I said: Because in 1500 the Roman Church was a Catholic church, a 'Universal' Church which unified both Pagan Philosophy and Hebrew Revelation, illuminated by the divine teaching of Christ and the New Covenant and the Doctrine and Ritual of the Church, or at least that is how it thought of itself. This is what the educated of Agrippa's time believed, this was not some esoteric doctrine, imported from afar, it was based on the Church Fathers from Justin Martyr on and affirmed by the Scholastics and reached its highest formulation in the thought of Marsilio Ficino. Talk about a beautiful mind, this man had it. That is why Agrippa begins as he does, with the accusation that will be brought against him by the ignorant: by the way, I love the phrase 'scandalize excellent wits', but to continue, instead he answers: and then in a phrase that was to prove prophetic continues: Because yes, the Protestant Reformation was to reject all of this, but the Gospel itself, but the Gospel itself, outside the context of 'Phylosophers', Divines, Sybils and Holy Magicians is a very different thing then the Gospel seen within that context and that is the Gospel that Agrippa knew and loved. The rest as they say is history, but a history that is very necessary to understand in order to understand Agrippa. Oh, I'm still not done with 'To the Reader' by the way, but more anon.

So, tomorrow's the big day. I don't wish to jump the gun here, but since there has been nothing about how this is going to be approached, I will suggest that we start with Agrippa's Letter to the Reader, which contains the single best piece of advice for someone wishing to read these books anywhere, especially for someone trying to understand them now almost five centuries after they were written, because the chasm that separates Agrippa's worldview from our own is very big and one needs be aware it before embarking on a serious study of Agrippa.

Seriously, whoever did it and whatever superficial aspects are used as 'racial' identifiers, it is my race, the human race. But seriously, that is not what is at issue, what is at issue is history and in that history certain superficial aspects used as 'racial' identifiers have become more of an issue than then should be. Seriously, whatever your race and whether you are an 'Afro-centrist' or not, you put forward claims about history from 'Afro-centric' sources as being unquestionable the truth. Now let us look at one of the claims from an 'Afro-centric' source: This source identifies the pictured mummy as Thutmose IV, other sources identify it as a noble of the court named Maiherpri. Now, in the link which Vortex posted and you chose to re-emphasize: there is a long and, dare I say it, divisive, rhetorical battle about hair, but at no point is the identity of the mummy as Maiherpri questioned. Did you notice that? Or were you just looking for whatever would support your own ideas? At the time I made my post here: Thutmose IV or Maiherpri I had not had a chance to review anything about the matter. I only did a search on Thutmose IV and then opened the images section and followed the only black image that I found, which took me to the Blog location that I posted. I then posted the obvious suggestion that at the very least such matters were controversial, which at least to a person accustomed to critical thought and concerned about historical truth would mean that more information was required. When I went to look for more information, such as here: Wikipedia on Maiherpri I found the evidence rather convincing, including a papyrus page identifying him as Maiherpri: that this was indeed Maiherpri, and not Thutmose IV. So seriously, I have to ask you, do you still believe that the mummy whose picture you posted is the mummy of Thutmose IV and if so why?

I suppose I could contribute some of my expertise from time to time.

If you can quote obviously Afro-Centric sources, I can quote obviously Euro-Centric ones: In quoting the above I wish to make clear that I do not endorse it, its arguments or conclusions, but rather wish to show that the matter is not without controversy and probably never will be the source of anything but divisive propaganda and counter-propaganda about race and also wish to emphasize that as far as I am concerned race is an utterly worthless concept for evaluating Human Beings. I find this whole topic disgusting, which is why I am so loath to contribute anything more to it than I already have.

I always had an odd relationship with the 'craft' having known some very influential people in it, but I have never really been interested enough to pursue it. I Knew people who worked with Joe Wilson and who practiced 1734 with him in the 70s and early 80s. I also knew people who were 'fam trads' as they used to call them and disdained the Gardnerians as arrivistes. Maybe someday I will have time to post on it. It was an interesting period.

Thanks for re-posting this here, like I said I think some good can come out of this being here. There are two issues that influence what you have described, one is money and the other is paradigm bias. Paradigm bias means someones interpreting another persons experiences within a paradigm that negatively assesses them a priori, a fundamentalist Christian will tend to negatively evaluate experiences of 'spirits', a materialist therapist will view spirit visions as hallucinations, mystical experiences as 'depersonalization' and anything that is conducive to these experiences, such as meditation, as being irresponsible escapism. Most 'alternative' therapy forms are associated with alternative worldviews which are viewed with suspicion by such people and without addressing on a larger scale the notion of paradigm bias, alternative therapies will be an uphill battle. Money issues come to the fore in two cases: Who is going to pay for these expensive studies? Unfortunately the neither TCM, nor Ayurveda has the deep pockets of drug companies to support such research, so that even without postulating: Drug companies will have an advantage. Given that such abuses have been documented, it increases the clout of drug companies in the healthcare field. To a certain extant money issues even affect: Because the Psychotherapies are usually based on particular schools of thought don't have the deep pockets to do the research, they will be hampered in terms of competing with drug companies. Psychotherapies and alternative therapies are dependent on research done in educational institutions, which while it may be a little more open in that regard, nonetheless is not free from paradigm bias. For Alternative and spiritual oriented therapies to take root, there must not only be a concerted research effort, but also an educational effort designed to undermine and if necessary combat the ill effects of paradigm bias. How this can be arranged is the challenge to be addressed. If anyone has not heard of it: The Scientific and Medical NetworkIs an interesting organization that I came across a while ago that seems to be working in this direction.

Excellent summary Satya, this discussion belongs in your other thread, where it would be illuminating. I realize that you did not start it, but are trying to get back to topic. Back to topic. I like the idea of a Spiritual Thesaurus, the closest thing to it at this time would be David Allen Hulse's Key of it All, a two volume set which is marred by the usual mistakes that occultists make involving superficial comparisons across cultures. What is needed is a historically nuanced, paradigm sensitive, approach that actually realizes the big differences that separate Renaissance authors like Cornelius Agrippa and the world view in which they wrote, from Aleister Crowley and the world view in which he wrote. It is this lack of context that turns even attempts to compare something as apparently simple as Chinese 'five element' theory with 'Western' 'five element' theory. They break down because the people doing them don't believe that analytical thinking is relevant to 'spiritual truths' and that any vague resemblance goes. Nothing could be further from the truth, but getting people to believe that in a post 'Romantic Revolution' rejection of reason is pretty much impossible. In any case the idea is good, implementing it in a meaningful way will not be easy.

I have found this and some of your other threads deal with some interesting topics The following posts of mine deal with mind/body and thus practice/therapy-medicine issues from a Chinese perspective. They are part of a thread that begins here: Any Advice on Helping Someone With Both Mental Illness and Spirit Trouble? These posts are marred by the fact that I am old enough to have been studying through the 'Pinyin' revolution and tend sometimes to write old school rather then Pinyin and not realize it until later. Thus Zhangfu throughout should have be Zangfu: First response starts to address question of organs in mental states The second response is a little fuller: An introduction to mind/body relationship in Chinese traditions. And finally the third, which goes into more detail: A continuation with some modern and cross cultural ideas thrown in Obviously these discussions are only an introduction to the relevant issues.

性命法诀明指 is the Chinese version: Thank you for confirming that this: is basically correct. Since according to the first Paragraph of the study from which this is taken: Komjathy can hardly have meant the Chinese characters of the Japanese title, and, especially when the source he references: is, according to footnote 2 on page 1, the 藏外道書 Zangwai Daoshu, is a Chinese source, about which, you can find more information here: and there is nothing in Komjathy's text to indicate that it is the Japanese title instead of the Chinese title that one would expect, it must be a typo and 'pointers' is accurate, but '旨', is a mistake and should read '指' and I was right to mention this. Now as to this: 性命法诀明旨 is the Japanese version: I am a little puzzled by this, after all, the meaning of the Kanji for: 指: finger; indicate; measure (ruler); play (chess); point to; put into; is much closer to the Chinese than the Kanji for: 旨: clever; delicious; expert; purport; relish; show a liking for; will; So why change the Character? It seems an odd choice for a Kanji transliteration of the title, but since you say so, it must be true. Perhaps you have a source for this, or maybe someone with a good grasp of Japanese can explain it. Like I said, I find it puzzling, and would like to get a little insight into it.

Do you know the difference in meaning between the two characters....??? 旨, zhǐ: imperial decree / purport / aim / purpose 指, zhǐ: finger / to point at or to / to indicate or refer to Illuminating Pointers to the Methods and Instructions of Innate Nature and Life-Destiny I don't claim a profound knowledge of Chinese, but either Komjathy is mistranslating 旨, or he is mistyping 指. The title 性命法诀明指 seems to be correct based on search results. I was rushed when posting this, but I thought my linking of character and meaning in the form of Character01 should read Character02, Meaning02 instead of Meaning01, was clear enough. I am sorry if this caused any confusion on your part. I hope that it didn't confuse anyone else.

You're Welcome. Yes it is. The first section has the chapter headings, try doing the same thing with some of them and you will see that they follow the book. Chinese is not an easy language to translate, and a work like this will be even more difficult because of its technical language, even native speakers who lack a knowledge of the technical usage can get into trouble. By the way each of the Chapters has 诀, secret in it and are in a form like: First Secret Method, Second Secret Method, followed by a short description of what that method is, the first one talks about 'quieting spirit' and 'Ancestral Opening (in the body)' and the second one describes a furnace and cauldron. Thus the words rendered by 'Illuminating Pointers', have been replaced by a word from each chapter heading, yielding 'Secrets', in the title translation that you are using, but 'Illuminating Pointers' is more literal, and 'scholarly' and thus Komjathy's translation. When I did a little work with it a few years ago, I got the impression that in his translation Luk sometimes changes the order of the information around within the chapters, which adds to the possibility of confusion. Also just for the record, I make no claims to fluency in Chinese, but after decades of study, I do know the subject well and have a lot of familiarity with its technical language. Finally, you might try mdbg.net, it is a very good online dictionary/resource, if you are not already familiar with it.

From: Daoist Texts in Translation∗ Louis Komjathy/Kang Siqi 康思奇, Ph.D. Center for Daoist Studies Xingming fajue mingzhi 性命法訣明旨: Illuminating Pointers to the Methods and Instructions of Innate Nature and Life-Destiny: ZW 872. Translated by Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk). Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality. York Beach (ME): Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1973/1970. An alchemical text written by Zhao Bichen 趙避塵 (b. 1860). It provides an in-depth discussion of the alchemical process, including straightforward and illustrated descriptions of qi-circulation techniques such as the Microcosmic Orbit (xiao zhoutian 小周天). Komjathy has the wrong final character '旨' should read '指', 'finger / to point at or to / to indicate or refer to' instead of 'imperial decree / purport / aim / purpose' You can find the complete text here: 'Taoist Yoga' Chinese Text: 性命法诀明指

Talk about nostalgia, here is a piece of trivia for you. Don's Modern Magick was originally written to be published by this man: Malcolm Mills. Here is his biography from his site: In Santa Barbara Mills started Malcolm Mills Publications, which produced some excellent and very influential material on the New Orleans Voodoo tradition. His major work was called Oils, Incenses and Powders and was based on years of research. What is left out of the above is that he also ran Herman Slater's catalog business, Abrahadbra. Herman Slater's Magickal Formulary is basically a ripoff of Mills material. In the early 1980s Mills invited Don to write for him, and Don was working on the material, but Mills firm did not remain in business and the result was published by Llewellyn. It's probably better for everyone that Don's book was published by Llewellyn, but that is the story of its origin. I have thought about Mills many times over the years. I finally found him today. Edit: This accidentally went to post too soon and I had to add the end material as an edit. I may decide to edit it more. Edit: Italicized 'Modern Magic'

OldChi, This reminded me of something and I have wanted to comment on it for a while, now seems as good a time and place as ever. When I first heard of Don's illness back in January, I found myself waxing a bit nostalgic and went down to one of the local bookstores that he and I used to frequent. I was looking at his books and thinking about them. I am mentioned as one of his anonymous friends here and there in them and decided to look at one of his later books Tarot & Magic. Going to the index as I often do with books I found a reference to strange attractors an aspect of mathematical chaos theory. The references are to Chapter Seven and I was pleased to find an intelligent discussion of much misunderstood topics, such as synchronicity in divination and magic and the possibility of mathematical order underlying chaotic appearances. I have been critical, both of synchronicity and the misuse of Chaos Theory in magic for decades, but I cite this as a testimony to his intelligence, because that needs to be noted as well as his humor. Since I was teaching tarot magic back in the 1980s I have no practical need for his book, though I would certainly recommend it to anyone who is interested, just as I recommend his books in general. I later went back shortly before Don's death and bought a copy, so I could cite his discussion. I may post on it in more detail at some point. Though something he said in it is perhaps relevant to what I said about his 'eternal essence' in my previous post: Don now has the answer to this big 'perhaps', I hope that he is happy with it, wherever he is.

Yes, that is very Don Kraig. He had a great sense of humor, it was one of the things I really liked about him. We had such a good time talking in person and on the phone, we played off of each other well, because, believe it or not, I have a sense of humor too. (After reviewing the above before posting, I thought about the grammar of the first sentence. Just saying 'That was very Don Kraig', just doesn't seem right, but something like "That is behavior that was typical of Don Kraig's spontaneous humor", while perhaps more correct in terms of tense, doesn't capture the right quality either. Having thought about it, I think I know why. It is because I think his humor was part of his essence, something that he could never be himself without, in so far as there is an eternal essence of 'Don Kraig', that humor is still typical of him, a part of his 'isness' whether in the flesh or not.)

I'm sorry if I did not make clear that: Tai Shang Lao Jun (太上 老君, Tàishàng Lǎojūn, Very Highest Lord Lao), is the most important single Deity in Daoism and thus the Initiation Rite would take place under the highest divine auspices, if Xiao Yao Pai's claims are correct. I will further note that I don't have any negative criticism of Xiao Yao Pai in so far as I understand it at this time. It simply remains to be seen whether it can deliver as promised. What I hope to do if I have time is to look a little closer at some of the issues that have been raised on this thread and and see if they can be reconciled and how they reflect on problems of cultivation in general.

Since you haven't had much in the way of a reply so far, I will give a few suggestions. I can't give an 'official' explanation because my attention was only drawn to Xiao Yao Pai a few weeks ago and in another context. However, I do have a significant background in both Daoist cultivation and Western Esoteric practice, so that may be helpful to you in itself. If you read the following it may make it a little clearer what is going on: the ability to communicate with your Fu Fak Shen: if you think of this as connecting with 'the Holy Guardian Angel', you may find that helpful. Now read this with that in mind: This guardian spirit is sometimes spelled Fu Fa Shen and Fu Fak Shen, though Fu Fa Shen Fu Fa Shen (which I am assuming is 傅 fù, fū, tutor, teacher; 法 fǎ, method, technique; 神 shén , heavenly spirit) as Heavenly Spirit Teacher of Method, seems to make more sense. Bearing this 'Guradian Spirit' idea in mind and some other considerations is a useful starting point for you from what you say in your first post. I don't have time to post more now, but I think the basic ideas discussed in this thread can be reconciled into a coherent model of cultivation.

Wikipedia.org on the 'One drop rule' A 'little more' than ridiculous, it was a horrible injustice.

Good, I will have to ask him about 'Jesus in his heart'. I suspect that he has a theologically more sophisticated approach than most people are familiar with. You and anyone else who appreciates my posts are certainly welcome. I try to post pertinent well thought out observations and it is time consuming, but if it useful to people, that is what matters.

Thank you 'altiora', I appreciate your post. I have been very busy the last week to ten days and in the time left over spent a little of it wondering if what I was doing by posting here was really appreciated by anyone. As I have mentioned it takes a lot of time to simply do the searches and take the notes, and work them into a coherent post, much less a series of coherent posts, and I did think about cutting the matter short and I still may, but before I make a decision I want to make somethings clear about 'fairness' and how I see it in the present circumstance. Earlier I said: fairness . . . to 'flowing hands': Means doing everything that I can to understand his position, which means reading his posts and trying to understand his world view and how his posts as an account of his teachings and methods fit into his world view. I think that I understand that clearly now. If I need to give an account of it I will do so in his own words, based on his posts here and draw as reasonable a picture from them as I can. Fairness . . . to the general readers of this thread: This means that think that the readers of this thread should know that his behavior here is typical and in point of fact he had been posting on three other treads related to another schools teaching in which he had derailed thread by dismissing the schools teachings, imperiously affirming his own knowledge as being the only true knowledge and that one of these threads was one that he started specifically to accuse this school of attacking him magically. All of this wasted the time and energy of people who were on those threads, some of whom cross posted here and had already been dealing with him for months. I suspect that they already found him: 'very boring' and were 'simply not interested' in more of the same from him, nor do they 'have the time' to waste on more posts from him. Phrases which I chose with a particular reference to: Did fairness to these people stop him from insisting that they listen to him again? I wrote the above the other day before this series of responses began, and here he is back again showing that he cannot even read, but is still as contentious as ever and repeating the same critique of Jerry Alan Johnson that he has before. When does 'flowing hands' unfairness to other people stop?

I agree with this. Modern Western occultists have a tendency to try to find everything on the Tree of Life, part of the impoverishment of the system which has taken place since the Nineteenth Century. The most useful Western system in this case is Geomancy which has a lot of interesting correlations and I have used as a cross cultural bridge for decades. People have the potential for many types of bodies that instantiate different cosmological systems. I don't have much time to post on this right now, but will later if I can.

Yes, Jacques the Fatalist is about Hermetic doctrine and astrology.

Actually you cannot leave out the 'mystics' without engaging in arbitrary distinctions. Platonism is the most sustained and rational attack on ancient materialism and also the most sustained and rational defense of things usually called 'mystical'. If philosophy is characterized as sustained rational discourse, then 'mysticism' must be part of any philosophical discussion. And by the way, if you want to talk at all about Chinese cosmology you can't get away from qi, the li/qi cosmology whose earliest surviving literary reference is the Legalist Hanfeizi, possesses a rough equivalence to Aristotelian Hylomorphic cosmology. That said, I think it is a bad idea. it will either die on the vine like the Confucian section, or be the center of long bouts of acrimonious exchanges which will reveal a lot about the posters fundamental ontological commitments, but generate too much smoke and not enough light to be edifying.

Please link posts where he spammed and directly insulted other members before I joined. I have given the Tao Bums my opinion, if anyone who has been around here as long as I have believes it is ill founded, I invite them to respond, if you believe it is ill founded, fine, I don't care. I will not spend the hours necessary to search for and link all the quotes necessary to support that opinion. I am not a paid public prosecutor who needs to build a case. I am not even a Mod here, they have done the work and reached conclusions with which I regrettably had to concur. You as his self-proclaimed pro bono public defender should do the hours of searches and links needed to find posts where he is polite and respectful. The search would do you good, then you would see how hard it is to build a good defense based on his behavior. As noted above I attempted to plead for mercy on grounds of extenuating circumstances. My posts begin here: My attempts to defend MPG/TG in and of themselves these posts took up quite a bit of time. I have spent enough time on MPG/TG and enough time on you on you in regard to this matter.