Zhongyongdaoist

You certainly know how to change the subject quickly when you have been caught on your own hook. Your argument at this point is purely ad hominem and continues to make assumptions and assertions about people, and their supposed inferiority to your own definition of a 'true cultivator'. I could ask similar questions about you, but I leave that to others. As I said you seem to want to change the subject and no one can be blamed if they think it is because you have no satisfactory answer. you are aiming to have nothing in your heart other than the Dao when cultivating and you can't call it anything else: You criticized Jerry Alan Johnson, myself and others for not knowing this. I provide an example from a tiny portion of his writing and you act as if it is all he has to say about the matter. He has much more to say about this and trees too. I have no need for Jerry Johsons book: You do if you want to put forward a cogent and convincing criticism of it. Otherwise even a person of relatively little judgement is likely to conclude that you have nothing important to say about the matter.

A very reasoned response. Some of the points you bring up are why I prefer the Platonic tradition. Plato certainly has his methods that are 'intellectual', such as described here: The Experience of Sudden Enlightenment (Perseus Digital Library, Seventh Letter, 344a) but he also had teachings that were borderline tantric in their use of 'love', these are described in detail in the 'Symposium' and 'Phaedrus'. This is an interesting quote because it illustrates that Platonism is based on the idea that there exists a fundamental connection between the human being and reality, usually called the Microcosm/Macrocosm anlolgy, and which arises out of Plato's theory of knowledge: The experience of truth is the union of the self with being (Perseus Digital Library, Republic VI, 490a): And later the Middle and Late Platonists were to extend this with Theurgy, a practice which engages the whole person. Obviously there is much more that could be said, but that at least points to a wider understanding of Plato and the Platonic tradition.

As a person who has posted positively about Jerry Alan Johnson's books I suppose that I am included in this condemnation. As a person who started reading the Dao De Jing almost fifty years ago, I bought Jerry Alan Johnson's books for what was not in the Dao De Jing, not what was already in it. As for not knowing anything about cultivation and thus being misled about cultivation, I will let you and Jerry Alan Johnson speak for yourselves, that others may decide: From the end of 'Yellow Court Meditation for internal Cultivation of Thunder', which starts on p. 239 of Daoist Weather Magic and Feng Shui:

I'm sorry if my original post was unclear. I have emphasized relevant passages below: all of his Daoist Magic books: When I said all of his Daoist Magic books that included Daoist Internal Alchemy at the time of posting. I believe I got it sometime in the preceding summer. In terms of his previous books there is a lot of material that is 'new', by which I mean that he has not written about it in his other books, though I have known about or worked with some of it for a long time.: This passage is in reference to Daoist Internal Alchemy. Several items that he mentions have appeared in the scholarly literature, in this case I am referring to Livia Kohn's Daoist Experience: An Anthology. I have used her material as well as others as the basis of my own work and investigation for quite some time. Jerry Alan Johnson's own use of them includes other material which is not in the scholarly literature. Some other material I learned before Jerry Alan Johnson, having studied with Sifu Michael Alan Brown about forty years ago. These are the exercises described beginning on p. 240. Jerry Alan Johnson's Daoist internal Alchemy is a thick, densely packed book which will overwhelm a person who does not have a satisfactory background. I remain with my original recommendation, which is to start with his medical Qigong books, which contain much useful information including insight into mantra, mudra and other important aspects of Daoist magical training, which is developed in his other Daoist Magic books. I remain with my advice that: Guide to Buying the Daoist Magic series is an excellent guide.

Thunder_Gooch was banned, but there was a lot of talk about Wang li Ping and this book: Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu lists for $28.00. There are apparently other books in the series, some of which are classical Daoist texts. Maybe that is what he meant.

Yes, actually two. Pointing towards the non-dual nature of reality as it exists beyond concepts, and bashing Marblehead. Liminal Actually there is a third one introduced by me here: and the importance of this is that, just as Platonic intellectualism banished materialism from the Hellenistic period by rigorously asking questions that materialism was incapable of answering, it is also capable of asking questions about modern day materialism which it is cannot answer. This may seem trivial to all the 'non-dualists' out there, but there are people who are quite ready to dismiss all your non-dualist experiences as the misfires of a a diseased nervous system and to create chemical and electrical means to save you from them. These people are the neurological establishment and if they have their way the 'disease' of mysticism will be stamped out in decades. Religious fundamentalism is also very vulnerable to deep questioning and is also a danger to any form of mysticism and again if they could stamp it out, they would do so. Learning to undermine both materialism and fundamentalism may be essential to the viability of real spirituality in world culture. Platonism has much to offer to help protect and further mysticism and spirituality in the modern world.

A well taken point. The Platonic tradition is also deeply and profoundly 'holistic'. Speaking to the whole person, it addresses the mind as a potential ally and by a rigorous examination of all accepted 'truth' both clears the ground and lays the foundation for reaching a direct apprehension of it.

There is a Western intellectual tradition that is both intellectually rigorous and deeply mystical and that is the Platonic tradition,especially as explicated by Plotinus and also Proclus. Others contributed, but these are the 'Three Ps' of Western Mystical Philosophy, and they are not wimps.

In case anyone wants to see the source: Geheime Figuren der Rosenkreutzer on Scribd In English here, but without the pretty color plates: Secret Symbols of the Rosicrucians Index Apparently a work in progress, but it does have: Virgin Sophia

The human animal is an omnivore. Human beings can be whatever they want. Most people confuse sentiment and squeamishness with morality. Here is an interesting suggestion: Bugs, they're what a body needs

It works for 'people' with heads full of straw it should work for lizards too.

Oh, yes you have. Consequences yes, facing them no.

No diploma, he had a vision. Basically he suffers from severe transmission envy, which has nothing to do with someone's car.

For a complete run through of the whole business see: Your mommie warned you about it now visit it, The Pit! This is the recent flap, combining the threads.

Just remember, it is not the size of the cult, it is how you misuse it.

His name is Mak Tin Si and he has a Taoist (I'm not going to call it Daoist!) cult. His principle activity here goes back to 2008 and 2009. When I first started every other tread was by him and promoting his teaching. These references are to a more recent spate of activity when warring factions decided to try to use the Tao Bums again. Needless to say it didn't work. His attitude is, if you are not for him you are against him. Since he cannot use The Tao Bums, we are evil.

I'm very sorry to hear this, but not surprised. Pancreatic cancer is very aggressive and fourth stage is too advanced, especially if it is in the 'B', stage where it has metastasized is little more than a prologue to passing and the accounts gave me the impression that it had already reached that stage.

My own post was mostly a wryly humorous observation, but there was a serious part to it. You may have messed it up 'all around', but at the center you're fine, your heart is in the right place.

And actually it's Northern Avid Judo Ant, but hey, your heart's in the right place.

Regrettably I don't see an easy answer, especially if you are talking about someone trying to work through it alone. If you are talking about a counseling situation, that is different, and if you know magic (nod, nod, wink, wink), that is even more different, but in any case a lot depends on who they were before the experience, that is why I concluded with this: Very pressed for time now, but will try to post more.

Tendou, Thank you for your clarification. I prepared my second post here before seeing yours and went ahead and posted it because it starts to build the context in which I believe those quotes should be taken. To clarify, I am not opposed to even banning MPG/TG if his behavior doesn't improve and yes I know how annoying this type of thing can be, also I know that MPG/TG would undoubtedly dismiss most if not all of what I do. Oh well, that is his loss,not mine.

I want to concentrate on and organize on a few data points here. First MPG/TG is a relatively young man, judging by his posts, late twenties to early thirties. That puts these events around a decade ago, when, if I am right, he would have been in his late teens or early twenties. Imagine at that age going from this: To this: By way of this: And this: A series of events characterized as: At that age. But wait there is more: He wasn't on any drugs. But lots of real life events that make no sense happened during this time frame to the point people in my life were freaking out, and not because of me but things that were happening to them. When my brain came back together from this experience I realized I wasn't the only one whom it affected. (Emphasis mine, ZYD) I probably would have written it off as a psychotic reaction, but I wasn't the only one it affected, the friend whom it most affected is now dead (that may be only coincidence): Let's add possible 'survivors guilt' to the mix. When my brain came back together from this experience I realized I wasn't the only one whom it affected; Is that a part of the reason for this: What kind of a burden is MPG/TG really carrying? I think Owledge's post is telling. In regard to this warning: Owledge replied: It took Owledge less than three months to agree with MPG/TG There is more to this, but now I will mention two interesting and important lives that bear on this, one is that of Houston Smith, who had one experience with LSD which transformed his life for the better because he was perfectly prepared for it and the other is Richard Alpert/Ram Dass, who had hundreds of experiences with LSD, but could not integrate it until he found a Guru who did not seem to be affect by it at all. This met a truckload of needs that Alpert/Ram Dass had, many of them unconscious, that Alpert needed to have satisfied before he could assimilate his experiences and move on. Alpert was a textbook case of what I call 'Closet Cartesianism', at term which regrettably I don't have time to expand on right now, but will. Now I hope that organizing part of my original quote in this way has clarified some of what I believe is going on here. More if I can. Edit: Changed Closet Cartesianism' to 'Closet Cartesianism'

I don't think you are being completely fair to him, have you read these: Walk a few miles in those shoes and see if you remain sane. Somehow or other he did. I have more that I would like to say about this, but I wanted to put these up first. Whether or not I will say more depends on time and other things.

SereneBlue/JustARandomPanda Name change while you weren't looking. Last time on Private.

As far as I am concerned you have only a few data points, nothing that I would call an outline of my 'path'. You may be referring to The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn, a book which I read in the mid 1970s, though I was interested in the history, method and epistemological structure of science since my teens and in particular how they impacted my interest in magic. At the very least you are referring to some work influenced by his work. What seems to me to be the best overview of Thomas Kuhn can be found here: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on Thomas Kuhn I am afraid that I took the notion of 'the method of science' far more seriously than little Eddie Alexander ever did. Receiving a revelation from a praeter-human intelligence and founding a magical/religious cult around a 'Book of the Law', is not my idea of what scientific method is all about and frankly, I didn't care about the aim of religion part at all. It is popular because of little Eddie Alexander's Goetia edition, a work which rips it out of a carefully constructed context, creates a context in which it is primitive neuro-anatomy, and by making it a means self-development, implicitly puts it close to the beginning of training. Well, you did not specify it as being for advanced practitioners, or even intermediate ones, but seemed only interested in defending it as a practice in general. That the 'Initiated interpretation of Ceremonial Magic' has Waite in mind is illustrated by his name being mentioned specifically in the discussion of the powers of the spirit Cimieries, point two, 'the destruction of enemies', in a parenthetical comment, Waite is pointedly upbraided for misunderstanding that 'the destruction of enemies' is a blind for a sublime truth, though why gaining compassion to let go of animosity should be hidden under 'the destruction of enemies' is a mystery of too high a level for me, and then told that 'he who sees muck is muck'. As for Waite's negative attitude, there is abundant evidence in his writings and as Leslie Shepard notes in his introduction to the University Press edition of Waite's The Book of Ceremonial Magic, Waite '. . . looks upon Ceremonial Magic as not only futile, but denies any real distinction between white and black magic and considers it all vain and wicked.' This book was a later version (1913) of Waite's The Book of Black Magic and of Pacts, Crowley was probably upset by this book, published in 1898. By the way, as a matter of passing interest, I bought my copies of Waite's Book of Ceremonial Magic and Crowley's Magick in Theory and Practice within a week of each other in the summer of 1963, when I was twelve years old: I must assume that you are referring to Agrippa's Three Books here: With all due respect, if you are referring to the idea that Agrippa and the classical tradition is dated, your posts have not shown me any indication that you have the necessary background to make an informed judgment in the matter. In my earlier post, I should have said that Agrippa should be interpreted within the context of Platonism as represented in the works of Plato, and yes, Aristotle too, since he contributed ideas which the MIddle Platonists assimilated, Plotinus, Iamblichus Proclus and others, as anyone reading it in Agrippa's time would have done. Read in this context Agrippa absolutely delivers what he says he will: I adopted Platonism as a meta-paradigm circa 1980 for reasons related to what already amounted to many years of work and research into history and philosophy of science and the history of Roman Catholic and Protestant Christianity, Qabalah, Hermeticism, Hellenistic Philosophy and yes, even shamanism, as part of my background research for understanding the real historical context in which magic should be interpreted. After over thirty years of fruitful use of it, I see no reason to consider it dated in anyway. It is still a superior approach to anything of which I am aware and I am aware of a lot more than I get the impression you think I am. Most discussion about inward and outward are still framed in the mistaken notions of Descarte and Locke. Ideas which lead necessarily to Berkeley and Hume, 'enlightenment' materialism, Kant and the Romanitic reaction against materialism. In short to the mess in which we find ourselves now. The greatest clarity I found in this matter is in the Platonists. Buddhists analysis is flawed by the necessity to defend certain doctrines at all costs. You must be referring to yourself and your OTO buddies. If only Crowley had lived up to this 'exalted sentiment' in regard to The Book of the Law, maybe he could be a favorite of mine too.