Zhongyongdaoist

Yes, it is absolutely true that it is both OK and not OK to 'release certain information to certain individuals and/or the general public.' Knowing to whom and when is what Wisdom is all about. Get it first and the details are easy to deal with. Plato says as much in his dialogue Euthedemos. Few people listened to him then or now. Too bad we would all be better off if more people did. Do people need to be properly prepared/trained to handle the various relative truths ? Absolutely, they also need to be properly trained to handle any type of truth, not just relative truths. Does the spirit only let one receive the information that one is ready to handle ? Don't be silly. The truth goes anywhere it can. It is like a seed, but how it grows depends on the soil that it finds. This is what the whole business of preparation is all about. That's where Wisdom comes in. Did I mention Wisdom before? The following posts are about two types of truth with some serious and interesting overlapping: The above is the 'mystical' type of truth. Below is the 'magical' type of truth. It was the sheer idiocy of the vast majority of students of magic that made the biggest contribution to my decision to stop teaching magic. Baquakicksass' statements are all too typical. These things can harm both oneself and other people. Most people studying 'magic' don't really believe in it, they just hope that it exists, getting them to take these things seriously is well nigh impossible. Then there are the 'Power Freaks' . . . need I say more about them? Wisdom helps you to discriminate between these types and guides you with how to deal with them. Did I mention Wisdom yet? The mystical type of truth is simply so far outside of most peoples belief systems that, yes it can be yelled from any place and no one is going to understand it, who is not prepared to do so. It is not so much self protecting, as just too obscure. May as well try to tell dwellers in tropical countries about snow (I took this example from the musical 'The King and I', can't find a nifty YouTube clip though.). They just don't get it. Not likely too either, at least not without the right preparation. That's where Wisdom comes in. Have I mentioned Wisdom yet? Perhaps one has to stumble a few times before they catch on - i.e., a self regulating process? Hopefully they don't break their leg, or knock someone else over in the process. Would you teach a 5 year old child to manufacture things that can go boom ? You don't teach them to play with matches either, but the nasty little brats will take them when you are not looking and get into all sorts of mischief, won't they? Wisdom would help with raising children. It would also help with the question of whom to teach an what to teach them and when. Have I mentioned the importance of Wisdom yet? Funny thing about Wisdom, everyone already thinks they are the wisest person in the world, so you can't interest them in it. Oh well.

No, no, you've got it all wrong. There was an ardent student of astrology named, oddly enough, Gloria Mundi. Once she saw a chart with an approaching opposition between Mars and Saturn in the twelfth and sixth houses. Feeling perturbed she went to her teacher and asked what it meant. The teacher replied with a smile, why that is a sick transit Gloria Mundi.

I met Don Kraig back in 1980, I liked him immediately. He was intelligent, well read and spoken, while remaining very modest and unpretentious. These last two traits are very rare among 'ceremonial magicians'. We both had wicked senses of humor and got along very well. We stayed in touch over the years, though often with years in which we didn't hear from each other at all. There seems to have been a one sided break about five years ago because he stopped responding to my emails, but I don't hold that against him and am very saddened to hear of his present condition. I did a small operation the other night and have been thinking about trying to organize something on the Tao Bums that might be more 'daoist', rather than the Enochian magical ritual that is on Facebook, but I don't know how much real interest there would be here. In any case I wish him well, literally and figuratively.

Thanks for the post and link I read Prigogine thirty plus years ago and decided that the chances that thermodynamics favored the evolution of life were very strong. The link between information and entropy can also be taken as pointing in this direction, since living systems are information rich. Back then I reached the conclusion that physics would move in the direction of information theory as a means of solving the problems of integrating relativity and quantum mechanics. Time has born that conclusion out. For an interesting complementary read, this book: Physics in Mind by biophysicist Werner Lowenstein is a very good discussion of consciousness integrating information theory and quantum computing into a theory of consciousness. It is up to date and rather more convincing than other authors that I have read on the subject.

Well, after all Crowley did have Leo rising, so certainly somewhat appropriate, but he might have preferred something . . . well, . . . a little grander.

Let's go back to what I said at the beginning: After all of these responses, now seems a good time to start looking at some of those reasons. At this site: Delving Into Tarot and Astrology in the Golden Dawn Tradition Down at the bottom you will find this section: Golden Dawn Astrological Correspondences in The Minor Arcana and material like this: These titles, 'The Lord of Love', 'The Lord of Joy', etc., and their astrological correspondences are from the Golden Dawn which associates each of the Minor Arcana numbered two to ten with one of the thirty-six ten degree sections of the Zodiac, called Decans. Compare these titles to the pictures on the Waite deck Minor cards and you can see that Waite has represented each of these in picture form. These suggestive pictures are not only a help for beginners with remembering the meanings of the cards, but they also demonstrate that Waite intended his cards to be a Golden Dawn type Tarot, which is also important, but I will have to deal with that in another post. Particularly if you are at all interested in what I posted in 'Tarot as a Magical Tool?': You will want to pay particular attention to these astrological correspondences.

The above of course seems odd, but here is the quick answer. It is only Obeah as it developed in the Twentieth Century and not its earlier development. Agrippa influenced Obeah through L. W. De Laurence by way of Francis Barrett: De Laurence's 'Obeah Bible' From the Amazon.com description: And from the publisher's description: There is a lot more that I discovered, but I don't have time to go into it, but I would be remiss if I neglected this lovely tribute to De Laurence by a Jamaican: The whole post is worth a read and I think that De Luarence would be pleased with it. It includes this wonderful quote:

Am I correct in assuming that you mean L. W. de Laurence: Wikipedia on L. W. de Laurence of De Laurence, Scott and Company? I haven't thought about him in years (decades really), though both my well worn copy of The Greater Key of Solomon and my first copy of the Goetia, were from them. Well it's late where I am and I have had a long day, but I have spent the past couple of hours on a merry chase through cyberspace with the result that I can now see Agrippa's influence on Obeah, a most unexpected result. It is a strange world we live in. I will try to write more later if anyone is interested.

Leland published Aradia in 1899, Crowley 'received' Liber Al in 1903. Liber Al, as you probably already know, indicates that Crowley was already widely read as it refers to 'Obeah and Wanga', African Diaspora terms, which may have been floating around in his unconscious. So it is possible that he may have been familiar with Aradia too. Somewhere I read about Crowley saying that he had met some witches in his early years, but didn't want to be bossed around by a woman. Unfortunately I cannot place the reference right now. Also is should be remembered that A. O. Spare had his witch teacher. Wikipedia on Liber Al's use of 'Obeah and Wanga' (I was surprised to see that an entry this specific existed.) An interesting correlation Rex, I don't think it exactly correlates, but it is suggestive. Positive emotional states are a big help in magic and meditation, but then any intense emotions can be harnessed if one is properly trained. The oddest one that I found was one based solely on anger. The way in which it was harnessed was quite interesting, not as negative as it sounds on the surface. Thanks for the Glenn Morris link, I have heard of him, and know that he is highly thougt of, but have never studied his material. As for the secret of the 'secret smile', it is definitely a unique smile and cannot be faked. My own research indicates that it happens when the 'pleasure center' of the brain, like in those rat experiments, is stimulated. I have different ways of accessing it based on my NLP experience. Edit: Italicized first 'Liber Al' after Crowley.

For a variety of reasons too complex for me to go into right now, for a complete beginner a simple Waite deck, sometimes called Rider-Waite, is the best place to start: Wikipedia on the Rider-Waite deck Almost all of the major decks in English are based on it and its symbolism and the fundamental structure which it represents is very positive and powerful. I don't like the art work of the original, but there are many beautiful decks that are based on its fundamental structure, my favorite being one done in Chinese style. Still you should start with the original deck and as you get a feel for it look around for another based on it that resonates more with your personal taste if you are not satisfied with the original art.

The original is from Aradia, or the Gospel of the Witches, ostensibly an ancient work giving an account of traditional Italian witchcraft beliefs and practices. It was translated and published by Charles Godfrey Leland, about whom you can read here: Wikipedia on Charles Godfrey Leland The complete text of Aradia, or the Gospel of the Witches can be found here: Internet Sacred Text Archive, Aradia, the Gospel of the Witches As noted above the source of the charge appears in Chapter One.

Thanks Nungali, I appreciate all the work and effort you put into this as well as the good will you displayed in your attempts to deal with people who wished to disrupt it. All they did as far as I am concerned was to make themselves look bad.

My comparison and synthesis of Western and Chinese esoteric systems started in the early Seventies when I started comparing Western alchemy with Chinese alchemy in form of Charles Luk's Taoist Yoga. It has continued to be an interesting and fruitful endeavor in the forty years since then. If I thought this type of comparison was really meaningful I would come back with something to the effect that since Yesod was is the reproductive organ of the Microprosopus that it is perfect to represent the lower Dan in its function as the 'cauldron of jing', but I don't find such superficial comparisons either interesting or particularly meaningful. I don't find them interesting or meaningful because they take superficial resemblances and shuffle them around to make a pretty picture which people who like such things then oooh and aaah over. If that is what you want to do, save yourself some time and trouble and buy Yudelove's book. Get it here if you want: Yudelove's pretty picture book And if you really want to do some staggering superficial comparisons of your own, here is some real food for fantasy, I mean thought: (Image from To Become a Sage, Chapter One, University of Washington) The text and commentary on this can be found here: To Become a Sage, Chapter One, University of Washington Be forewarned the diagram, text and commentary is all by Confucians and can be harmful to the unexamined presuppositions of 'Taoists'. On the other hand if you really want to do something interesting and practical start with Western geomancy, a short introduction to which can be found here: Wikipedia on Geomancy and also here: Wikipedia on the Geomantic Figures Here are the Geomantic figures and one can see immediately why they might have relevance to the I Jing: (Illustration from Wikipedia on Geomancy) Hint: think Nuclear Trigrams, there is much more of course. Elsewhere on the Tao Bums I have noted: Most modern 'magickians' have not stepped outside the conceptual box created by Aleister Crowley of Geomancy being related only to the 'magic of earth', this is so wrong as to be laughable, if it did not trivialize an important and powerful system of magic. Simply learing about Geomancy and investigating it with a combination of analytic skill and creativity can reveal so much that it is amazing. Just as an example, what I learned about the art and science of magical binding from the study of geomancy was worth all the time and effort that I put into that study a thousand times over. Geomancy is one of the most interesting and fruitful ways of making a cultural bridge between Chines and Western systems. There are more, but I have said enough for today. Edit: I realized that I accidentally left out the third quote in the series at the top, it is in particular to this third quote that my comments about the 'reproductive organ of the Microprosopus' is directed and they make less sense without it.

I rather agree with Baquakicksass here, though I am perhaps not as keen on Geoffrey James as she seems to be. I prefer the books of Robert Turner, Elizabethan Magic and The Heptarchia Mystica of John Dee. Aside from having the same name as an important 17th Century English writer and authority on magic, he was one of the major figures in the 60s revival of magic in England. He started with the Golden Dawn system, but then returned to the original material and wrote on it in the early 80s. Regrettably mistakes and possibly sources of corrupting influence started in the early 17th Century and influenced various sources up to and including the Golden Dawn. If I have time and there is interest I may document these elements. Rather stuck for time now. I did some posts on Enochian under my Theurgia-Goetia, on Gods and Demons thread, they begin here: Enochian Magic and the Structure of the Lemegaton Again my being able to reply to any questions about that material depends on finding the time to do so.

It is not fundamentalism per se that is bad, but those people who co-opt such doctrines for selfish, though usually unconsciously so, ends. They are the people who wish to claim the throne of righteousness for themselves while ignoring the Heart of Love. This is a particularly Christian formulation. Probably every Religion would have a similar formulation that would express the same idea, but I think most people will get my point.

Any man who has set is heart on learning is a big man in my book. Works for women too.

Lest someone think that an 'electro-temple' is some stunning innovation of chaos magic, the following quote should be edifying. It is from the second printing of Emma Harginge Britten's Ghost Land, first published in 1875 or 76. After describing the most remarkable visionary experiences, the subject of these 'Autobiographical Sketches' reveals the actual physical form of the temple: The account is perhaps partly or wholly fictive and the visions grandly elaborated, but it shows that the notion of 'electro-magic' is hardly a recent phenomena. Though certainly an innovation from the time of Agrippa's Three Books, it is neatly assimilated under the rubric of Natural and Mathematical Philosophy, with especially as we get more in the direction of radionics, whether in its medical or magical context. Naturally neo-magical theorists such as Donald Tyson would dismiss the whole business as a woeful crutch for for magus wannabes who do not possess the necessary will power and imagination. Only time and practice will tell.

I hope to have a longer reply addressing more of the issues you raise, but in these two: I wonder if you are perhaps confusing the order, thinking of this episode in which a guardian daimon was expected and a god showed up instead: More soon, I hope.

I am in complete agreement with this, Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism were known as the Three Teachings and while there were certainly some partisans each each, the general view was that they were complementary and in the end lead to the same goal. As an example: in which the '...circle which Confucius called virtuous perfection (jen)', jen is Cantonese for the Pinyin, rén (仁), the fundamental concept of the Confucian Dao.

Overall, I have the impression that no one posting here has anything but very superficial impressions about Confucianism which the are only too happy to share with us. Try these links to my posts on Confucian qigong and then you will have a better idea of what Confucianism is all about: Confucian Qigong Mencius Flood like Qi, Silent Siting and Zhong The Microcsom/Macrocosm doctrine and the states of development from 'good man' to shen Happy reading. Edit: Added leading quote mark to good man' in last link.

Just a quick note. To return to the OP: There is in reality no line between magic and religion. It is not observed in any but Western Cultures and was introduced as a Chrisitan/Pagan polemical device to distinguish the 'miracles' of 'True Religion', i.e. Christianity from the false seeming 'miraculous' phenomena produced by magicians. The mysticism starts with Plato and the magic develops from there. Time to introduce Eudorus of Alexandria: muddled concepts of psyche: I haven't read all of the the article in question because I am already familiar with the general issues, but one of the problems with Dillon's interpretation of Plato, is that Dillon takes the 'as much as we can' part of the Theaetetus quote and reads into it 'as mere mortals', this is where he is in disagreement with John Rist, who in Eros and Psyche takes the big view of the 'human being' as not merely confined to the human body in this world, but as living soul whose actions are reflected in the world of nature as a body. This living soul is a manifestation of the All and as such is quite capable of becoming 'God-like'. This idea, based on the Macrocosm/ Microcosm relation is fundamental to Plato's cosmology and Psychology (Psychology as the study of the Soul in the traditional sense and not its modern one.) a type of ‘pure philosophy’: Within this Hellenistic context what does 'pure philosophy' mean? It means the path to realizing and expressing one's divine nature in the world. It means magic. Any other meaning of philosophy must justify itself to its original model. In this regard Agrippa's Occult Philosophy succeeds admirably, almost all post 1700 'philosophy' , which now provides the model for 'pure philosophy' does not. surely relevance to current time, location and culture is an issue: Most Occultists have no idea of magic's historical context, this is the biggest issue facing the understanding of Magic as it existed from the Hellenistic period to the Renaissance and its relevance to the modern practice of magic.

Great Idea! It could be just like a circular file.

I agree with Apech. Aside from the fact that historically, Hermetic materials survived because they were viewed as important to the early Christian Church, Lactantius in particular praised them, there are Christian works of magic, Marisilio Ficino Christian Platonism is one of the most interesting intellectual edifices to ever edify the world, worthy of study even if one does not care about Christianity per se, but is interested in its formal structure, as I am, and many other interesting aspects that could be explored. There is a constant interweaving between the Abrahamic religions and Hermetic and Occult topics throughout the Hellenistic, Medieval and Renaissance periods into modern times. Creating a special Christian sub-forum would create protected soap boxes for fundamentalist rants, keeping Christianity in the Hermetic and Occult section at least can be used to keep it on track for esoteric, historical and intellectual purposes. For the reasons I have listed above and because it continues an already bad trend of sub-forum proliferation, I propose we cross a Christian sub-forum off the agenda.

If you understand physics and the history of physics you don't need 'freaky physics' and a big laboratory to understand that there is something funny going on in the world. All you need is Fermat's Principle. Just about everyone has seen this demonstrated many times, the most common observation being that a stick placed in water seems to be bent. These observations go back to antiquity, being noted both by Hero of Alexandria and the astronomer/astrologer Ptolomy. They were formulated by Fermat in the mid-Seventeenth Century into a principle called 'least time', meaning that light always travels in such a way as to take the least time to its 'destination'. It was noted at the time that there was no proper 'mechanical' explanation for this principle. To quote from the Wikipedia article on Fermat's Principle: Which can be found here: Fermat's Principle on Wikipedia The Principle of Least Time was generalized in the early Eighteenth Century by Maupertuis as the 'Principle of Least Action'. Two hundred years later George Fitzgerald was to express his dismay with the Principle of Least Action to his friend Oliver Heaviside, complaining that it seemed to make the present depend on future states, which of course implies that the past depends on the present, but Fitzgerald did not mention that. Maybe it hadn't occurred to him. Max Planck was to make observations about photons seeming to possess knowledge and make calculations. In the 1970s Arthur Young was to take these observations and write The Reflexive Universe, a very suggestive book, though perhaps a little too much influenced by the Mahatma Letters and the Cappadocian Fathers and not enough influenced by Plotinus for my taste. The problem presages later developments in Quantum Physics which arise in the 'double slit' experiment, which you can read about here: The Double Slit Experiment on Wikipedia The double slit experiment is one of the prime examples of 'quantum weirdness'. There is no satisfactory mechanistic explanation for any of this, only one in wave 'mechanics', and for centuries the question of Fermat's Principle was 'solved' by the idea that wave phenomena happen among the myriad light rays reaching the eye creating the phenomena, but the 'single photon' version of the double slit experiment was to shatter that explanation, for it demonstrated that a single photon would act 'as if' it were in company of a mass of waves, even though it was the only one reaching the target any any one time. One possible explanation is the idea that the missing waves exist in multiple surrounding 'realities' which are interfering with each other, trillions of them if not an infinite number of them, but definitely more than seven, and creating the wave phenomena. One can take the simple fact that the stick in the water seems bent as experimental proof for their existence. No 'freaky physics' is necessary. There are other issues that have came up in the above discussion, such as retro-causality and and apparent calculations being performed and maybe I will address them at another time. All of which would please manitou, but give Marblehead an attack of the conniptions. He wants that old time science, if it was good enough for Nietzsche, it's good enough for him. However, my fundamental point stands, since the inception of mechanistic materialism in the Seventeenth Century there has been counter evidence that rests on a common everyday observation. The physics of the Twentieth Century all revolves around a phenomena observed and formalized in the Seventeenth Century and the results of Twentieth Century physics can be viewed as a type of Reductio ad Absurdum refutation of mechanistic materialism. QED. Oh, as a curious side note, ants just love Fermat! Maybe ant nests are even more elegant proofs of his conjecture than the book length one that appeared a decade or so ago: Ants do the darnedest things.